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TOTAL DEPRAVITY

The funny thing about the Reformed doctrine however, is it relies on the assumption that everyone is born spiritually dead.
A term that can be found nowhere in scripture.

That’s a funny thing.
No, it's not at all a relevant thing. Again, you would do well to stop using the fallacious argument that because a term "can be found nowhere in scripture" that it is false.
 
Again, you should stop arguing against the phrase "spiritually dead" and saying "the Bible doesn't teach that" when you can't even define it.
It’s supposedly a broken relationship between God and man.
 
God has a love for all humans.

I would say He has a special love for His elect (the regenerate).

As I have stated before, we cannot understabd the hate and love of God, it is beyond our fallible minds and nothing like we think.

Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.


Yes, He desires for the elect to also obtain salvation.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10
 
No, it's not at all a relevant thing. Again, you would do well to stop using the fallacious argument that because a term "can be found nowhere in scripture" that it is false.
One thing I know for certain. All of Judea had come to be baptized at the Jordan. Jesus himself was baptized by John.
The Pharisees refused to be baptized and are therefore said to have rejected the ordinance of God by not doing so.
Ever since that time, believers were baptized in water into the name of Jesus. It’s an ordinance that has never been revoked.

Clearly then, when Jesus spoke of being born of water, it referred to being baptized in water.

These are not made-up words.
 
One thing I know for certain. All of Judea had come to be baptized at the Jordan. Jesus himself was baptized by John.
The Pharisees refused to be baptized and are therefore said to have rejected the ordinance of God by not doing so.
Ever since that time, believers were baptized in water into the name of Jesus. It’s an ordinance that has never been revoked.

Clearly then, when Jesus spoke of being born of water, it referred to being baptized in water.

These are not made-up words.
Okay. :shrug
 
And you think that's false?
The death sentence that was pronounced upon Adam has been pronounced upon all of mankind. The only separation between God and man is that the nature man was and is created with cannot see or enter God’s kingdom.
Adam’s flesh and blood nature he was created with would not have been excluded from that condition.
So Adam was created in a state of separation right from the start.
 
The death sentence that was pronounced upon Adam has been pronounced upon all of mankind. The only separation between God and man is that the nature man was and is created with cannot see or enter God’s kingdom.
Adam’s flesh and blood nature he was created with would not have been excluded from that condition.
So Adam was created in a state of separation right from the start.
Do you think man never had a relationship with God to begin with?
 
Do you think man never had a relationship with God to begin with?
I believe Adam had a relationship with the Angel of the Lord. I don’t believe Adam was just hearing a voice from heaven. Nor do I believe it was just a voice he heard walking in the garden.
I believe the Angel was actually there with him. And I also believe that both he and Eve had seen other angels.
It was said that they shall be as gods if they ate.
I believe they had seen the glory of the angels and desired to be as them.
And in fact they did become like them. Only it didn’t included immortality. Just the knowledge of good and evil.
 
I believe Adam had a relationship with the Angel of the Lord. I don’t believe Adam was just hearing a voice from heaven. Nor do I believe it was just a voice he heard walking in the garden.
I believe the Angel was actually there with him. And I also believe that both he and Eve had seen other angels.
It was said that they shall be as gods if they ate.
I believe they had seen the glory of the angels and desired to be as them.
And in fact they did become like them. Only it didn’t included immortality. Just the knowledge of good and evil.
Why is it I've been asking simple, straightforward questions, but can't get a straightforward answer?

Again, do you think man never had a relationship with God to begin with? Or, do you think that man's relationship with God has always been the same, from Adam all the way till now?
 
Why is it I've been asking simple, straightforward questions, but can't get a straightforward answer?

Again, do you think man never had a relationship with God to begin with? Or, do you think that man's relationship with God has always been the same, from Adam all the way till now?
What do you mean by relationship?
 
What do you mean by relationship?
You're the one who used it first: "It’s supposedly a broken relationship between God and man."
 
I know what Reformed Theology teaches about regeneration.
It assumes Adam died as soon as he put the fruit in his mouth. And everyone since has been dead like that.
But I don’t buy that assumption because no one is said to be dead like that. They made-up this idea they call “spiritually dead”.
Now, since the Bible doesn’t teach that, I have a different view of what regeneration is.
And what is that view?
 
Yes, He desires for the elect to also obtain salvation.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10
The elect will be saved, they were chosen before eternity.


Paul says that in the 1 chapter.

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

before time began. The same Greek phrase appears in Tit_1:2. The destiny of God's chosen was determined and sealed from eternity past (Joh_17:24; cf. Eph_1:4-5; Php_1:29; 1Pe_1:2).
 
One thing I know for certain. All of Judea had come to be baptized at the Jordan. Jesus himself was baptized by John.
The Pharisees refused to be baptized and are therefore said to have rejected the ordinance of God by not doing so.
Ever since that time, believers were baptized in water into the name of Jesus. It’s an ordinance that has never been revoked.

Clearly then, when Jesus spoke of being born of water, it referred to being baptized in water.

These are not made-up words.
You sure Jesus was talking about water baptism in that verse?

If that is the case that would mean water baptism is necessary in regeneration.

Regeneration (new birth) is the work of the Spirit.

John 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 “That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”
 
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You sure Jesus was talking about water baptism in that verse?

If that is the case that would mean water baptism is necessary in regeneration.

Regeneration (new birth) is the work of the Spirit.

John 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 “That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”
Jesus is referring to being immersed in water and being raised from the dead.
Two separate events.

The kingdom of God has not come yet. We still pray for it to come. Just as Jesus instructed.

One must first enter God’s heavenly kingdom before he can see it. He enters it and sees it when he is raised from the dead.
The immersion in water places us in the covenant for entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
We are said to already have entered it and be in possession of eternal life at that point.
In the same way Abraham was said to already be the father of a multitude before he had any children.
For those who are to enter and see God’s heavenly kingdom it is a confident faith and hope.
Hope remains hope until it is realized. Then there’s no need for it.
 
Jesus is referring to being immersed in water and being raised from the dead.
Two separate events.

The kingdom of God has not come yet. We still pray for it to come. Just as Jesus instructed.

One must first enter God’s heavenly kingdom before he can see it. He enters it and sees it when he is raised from the dead.
The immersion in water places us in the covenant for entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
We are said to already have entered it and be in possession of eternal life at that point.
In the same way Abraham was said to already be the father of a multitude before he had any children.
For those who are to enter and see God’s heavenly kingdom it is a confident faith and hope.
Hope remains hope until it is realized. Then there’s no need for it.
John 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 “That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

Jesus is talking about spiritual cleansing.

born of water and the Spirit. Jesus referred not to literal water here, but to the need for "cleansing" (e.g., Eze_36:24-27). When water is used figuratively in the OT, it habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjunction with "spirit" (Num_19:17-19; Psa_51:9-10; Isa_32:15; Isa_44:3-5; Isa_55:1-3; Jer_2:13; Joe_2:28-29). Thus, Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (cf. Eph_5:26; Tit_3:5), required for belonging to His kingdom.
 
And what is that view?
Death: NT
KJV Translation Count — Total: 119x

Dead: NT
KJV Translation Count — Total: 132x

Just out of curiosity, how many of those verses in the NT do you add the words “spiritually” and “spiritual” before the words “death” and “dead”?

I could ask the same question where the word “life” is used.
How many of those verses do you add the same words to.
 
John 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 “That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

Jesus is talking about spiritual cleansing.

born of water and the Spirit. Jesus referred not to literal water here, but to the need for "cleansing" (e.g., Eze_36:24-27). When water is used figuratively in the OT, it habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjunction with "spirit" (Num_19:17-19; Psa_51:9-10; Isa_32:15; Isa_44:3-5; Isa_55:1-3; Jer_2:13; Joe_2:28-29). Thus, Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (cf. Eph_5:26; Tit_3:5), required for belonging to His kingdom.
Are you no longer flesh and blood which cannot enter the kingdom of God?
 
1Co 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 “That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.

The necessary condition to both see and enter God’s kingdom. And to qualify as Christian:

First, “born of water”. One needs to enter covenant with God. Called “the new testament ” or covenant . The happens when he believes the gospel and is immersed in water into the name of Jesus.

Second, “born of Spirit is spirit”. flesh and blood natural man cannot inherit the kingdom of God. He neither can see it or enter it.
He must be born from the dead having a nature suitable for God’s kingdom. This is called a “spiritual body” by Paul. Jesus simply calls it “spirit”.
This spiritual body or spirit has not the flesh of sin the natural man made from dust has. Peter calls its nature “the divine nature”.

Jesus further speaks of this new nature as follows:

John 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

The natural flesh and blood man is not like the wind. You can easily tell from where he comes and where he goes. However, the spirit body IS like the wind, you cannot tell from where he comes or where he goes. The natural body can be followed, the spirit body cannot.

So, this is the necessary condition to be a Christian and to enter/inherit/see God’s kingdom.
 
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