TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[LeviR]

In John 3 Jesus is not saying the same thing as Paul in 1 Cor. 15. Jesus is teaching about the need to be born again, that is, born of the Spirit of God, which is what happens when a person becomes a true believer and is justified. That happens now. Paul is clearly teaching of the resurrection.

Jesus said that unless someone is born of water and of the Spirit he can neither see nor enter the kingdom of God.

Paul says the same thing. “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”.

Jesus said “that which is born of flesh is flesh”.

Perfectly in line with what Paul says. “Flesh and blood”.

Therefore, the flesh and blood mortal man cannot see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God.

Now, in order to see, enter and inherit the kingdom of God, the flesh which is born of flesh must be changed.
And this is what Paul is saying.

Where Paul calls the resurrected changed flesh a “spiritual body” Jesus simply says it “is spirit”.

So, undeniably, in order to see, enter and inherit the kingdom this MUST happen.
He must be born of the Spirit and be spirit, because that which is born of flesh is flesh and flesh and blood mortal man cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

To say that someone is born of the Spirit without a change in nature to a spiritual body, is to say they can see, enter and inherit the kingdom of God without a resurrection from the grave.
Which directly contradicts Paul’s teaching that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Free]

Jesus said that unless someone is born of water and of the Spirit he can neither see nor enter the kingdom of God.

Paul says the same thing. “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”.

Jesus said “that which is born of flesh is flesh”.

Perfectly in line with what Paul says. “Flesh and blood”.

Therefore, the flesh and blood mortal man cannot see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God.

Now, in order to see, enter and inherit the kingdom of God, the flesh which is born of flesh must be changed.
And this is what Paul is saying.

Where Paul calls the resurrected changed flesh a “spiritual body” Jesus simply says it “is spirit”.

So, undeniably, in order to see, enter and inherit the kingdom this MUST happen.
He must be born of the Spirit and be spirit, because that which is born of flesh is flesh and flesh and blood mortal man cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

You are erroneously conflating "born again" with "resurrection" and two distinct meanings of "kingdom of God." The kingdom is both here, partially, and yet to come.

Jesus and Paul are talking about two different things. Again, Jesus is talking about salvation and Paul is talking about resurrection. To be resurrected and enter the kingdom of God, to be with God forever, one must already have been born again. However, the kingdom of God was inaugurated with Jesus's resurrection. And in that sense, all who are born again, that is born of the Spirit, are already living in God's kingdom (Mark 10:15). One day, when Jesus returns, God's kingdom will be brought to its complete fullness on earth and we will see it as it truly is.

 

[LeviR]

You are erroneously conflating "born again" with "resurrection" and two distinct meanings of "kingdom of God." The kingdom is both here, partially, and yet to come.

Jesus and Paul are talking about two different things. Again, Jesus is talking about salvation and Paul is talking about resurrection. To be resurrected and enter the kingdom of God, to be with God forever, one must already have been born again. However, the kingdom of God was inaugurated with Jesus's resurrection. And in that sense, all who are born again, that is born of the Spirit, are already living in God's kingdom (Mark 10:15). One day, when Jesus returns, God's kingdom will be brought to its complete fullness on earth and we will see it as it truly is.

If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, how is it you have already inherited it?

 

[JLB]

If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, how is it you have already inherited it?

The answer is simple and obvious. We have not inherited the kingdom of God... Yet.

This occurs at the end of our faith, at the resurrection of the dead in Christ on the Day of Judgement.

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Here is a snap shot of that Day -

• Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:31-36



JLB

 

[Free]

If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, how is it you have already inherited it?

Because, as I stated, you're conflating two distinct definitions of it. Physically we cannot inherit (enter) the kingdom of God at the end of the ages without our bodies being spiritually renewed. Spiritually, all believers are already taking part in the kingdom of God.

 

[LeviR]

The answer is simple and obvious. We have not inherited the kingdom of God... Yet.

This occurs at the end of our faith, at the resurrection of the dead in Christ on the Day of Judgement.

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Here is a snap shot of that Day -

• Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:31-36



JLB

There is a sense in which we already belong to the kingdom of God when we are baptized in water in the name of Jesus.
Being baptized into Christ is to become the seed of Abraham through whom the promise of the kingdom was made. To Abraham and all of his children.

The seed of Abraham are the children of God, and the children of God are first flesh and blood natural man which cannot inherit the kingdom.
However, they may be said to be possession of it just as Abraham was said to be the father before he had any children. It is a faithful promise for the faithful.

 

[LeviR]

Because, as I stated, you're conflating two distinct definitions of it. Physically we cannot inherit (enter) the kingdom of God at the end of the ages without our bodies being spiritually renewed. Spiritually, all believers are already taking part in the kingdom of God.

Are you saying you have already inherited that which you will inherit?

 

[LeviR]

The answer is simple and obvious. We have not inherited the kingdom of God... Yet.

This occurs at the end of our faith, at the resurrection of the dead in Christ on the Day of Judgement.

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Here is a snap shot of that Day -

• Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:31-36



JLB

Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, anyone who says they actually belong to the kingdom of God, here and now, and that the kingdom is here and now, are fooling themselves and are in direct contradiction with scripture.
Now, if they would like to correct themselves, they could say they belong to the kingdom in prospect, and hope to one day actually receive the inheritance. When they are no longer flesh and blood but are clothed in a spiritual body by resurrection from the dead.

 

[JLB]

There is a sense in which we already belong to the kingdom of God when we are baptized in water in the name of Jesus.

When we are born again, we are in Christ and therefore we are in the kingdom of God. Being in Christ, and Christ in us, gives us an ability to love and do what pleases God.

On the Day of Judgement we will stand before Him to be judged to see what we have done with the measure of His life we had been given.

Below is the one who received 1 measure of His life, to reproduce and spread to others…

“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:24-30


When we read Matthew 25:31-46, we must understand that it is the explanation of the previous parable.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:… BECAUSE
I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ Matthew 25:34-40

These are the ones who received a certain measure of His life and reproduced in others.

 

[LeviR]

When we are born again, we are in Christ and therefore we are in the kingdom of God. Being in Christ, and Christ in us, gives us an ability to love and do what pleases God.

On the Day of Judgement we will stand before Him to be judged to see what we have done with the measure of His life we had been given.

Below is the one who received 1 measure of His life, to reproduce and spread to others…

“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:24-30


When we read Matthew 25:31-46, we must understand that it is the explanation of the previous parable.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:… BECAUSE
I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ Matthew 25:34-40

These are the ones who received a certain measure of His life and reproduced in others.

The kingdom of God is an inheritance. Granted, Christ has already died and made the inheritance possible, but we are to inherit the kingdom along with him. And flesh and blood cannot inherit it, we must be as he is, to never die again, because the inheritance is an eternal inheritance for those who never die.
We belong to the kingdom now, in prospect. We enter it when baptized into Christ, so the inheritance becomes available to us. Otherwise we have no right to it.
We must be born of the Spirit and be spirit ourselves to enter the eternal inheritance and receive what is promised.
Being spirit simply means we are no longer flesh and blood mortals. We receive flesh that never dies again.
That is when, and only when, the inheritance is received.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I believe Adam had a relationship with the Angel of the Lord. I don’t believe Adam was just hearing a voice from heaven. Nor do I believe it was just a voice he heard walking in the garden.
I believe the Angel was actually there with him. And I also believe that both he and Eve had seen other angels.
It was said that they shall be as gods if they ate.
I believe they had seen the glory of the angels and desired to be as them.
And in fact they did become like them. Only it didn’t included immortality. Just the knowledge of good and evil.

Interesting! Do a word study of the phrase "the angel of the LORD"; I think the Angel of the LORD was the second Person of God, later to become Jesus, when he was conceived in Mary. What do you think?

However, Genesis doesn't use that phrase, does it?

 

[LeviR]

JLB
In a man’s will or testament, it is required that the man first die in order for the inheritance to be received by its benefactors
It would be against both God’s law and man’s law for an inheritance to be received by the benefactors before the death of the Testator.
If the owner or Testator of the property and its belongings were to give it to the benefactors before the death of the owner, it is no longer a will or testament but a gift.

And to refer to it as a will or testament no longer applies.

If God were to decide to give what belongs to Him as merely a gift, then the death of Christ would unnecessary.
God could bestow what belongs to Him on those He chooses to give it.
But the fact is, He has given the inheritance to His son as an eternal inheritance to be received not only by His son but also those to whom it is promised.

The death of the Testator is therefore required by law. And God has made His son to be the Testator of all His belongings.

In man’s will, the owner never again owns the property. It is passed along to only the living to enjoy.
But in Gods system, He gives it to whom He made the Testator of the property and also to those name among the ones to receive it. After they all die.
So, the difference between God’s will and testament is that it is inherited by all those listed in it.
All who are sons of God. Beginning with His only son whom He gave it all to, and by whom all others are to inherit it by.
But not until he died. As the law says, could any receive it.
And as he himself is to receive it, so too are those listed in the book of life to receive it only by being like he is, to never die again, because it is an eternal inheritance.

 

[LeviR]

Interesting! Do a word study of the phrase "the angel of the LORD"; I think the Angel of the LORD was the second Person of God, later to become Jesus, when he was conceived in Mary. What do you think?

However, Genesis doesn't use that phrase, does it?

I think the Angel was a messenger sent from God to represent God to man.
One who is sent from God is not the God who sent him. But he may be as the one who sent him in a representative sense. Whereby he is said to come in His name, speak His words, and do His works.

 

[hawkman]

I believe Adam had a relationship with the Angel of the Lord.

Scripture to support this belief ?

I believe the Angel was actually there with him.

Scripture to support this belief ?

I believe they had seen the glory of the angels and desired to be as them.

Scripture to support this belief ?

I must say these are things I have never heard another Christian say before .

 

[JLB]

Interesting! Do a word study of the phrase "the angel of the LORD"; I think the Angel of the LORD was the second Person of God, later to become Jesus, when he was conceived in Mary. What do you think?

However, Genesis doesn't use that phrase, does it?

Yes, of course. Jesus Christ before He became flesh.

Jesus Christ is LORD; YHWH the LORD God.

The Angel of the LORD was God, who became flesh.


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

Because “spiritually dead” is not taught in scripture. Man is dead because he is under a death sentence. He is under the sentence of death which states “dust you are and to dust you shall return”.

“Spiritually dead” is a man made doctrine.

The term "spiritually dead" derives from this:

59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Luke 9:59-60

There are people who are dead spiritually, but still walk around and do things. We are given to do very differently.

 

[LeviR]

The term "spiritually dead" derives from this:

59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Luke 9:59-60

There are people who are dead spiritually, but still walk around and do things. We are given to do very differently.

“spiritually dead” is an invention of man. It is NOT biblical teaching, anywhere. PERIOD!
Those who bury their dead are just as dead as the ones they bury because they have been sentenced to return to the same ground.
Sorry friend, but I believe God, not man who thinks he knows better than God and adds his own words and ideas to the scripture.

 

[Free]

“spiritually dead” is an invention of man. It is NOT biblical teaching, anywhere. PERIOD!

It is a biblical teaching. Period.

Those who bury their dead are just as dead as the ones they bury because they have been sentenced to return to the same ground.

That is clearly not what is being stated. "Dead" is used with two different meanings--physically and spiritually. You're ignoring the obvious contrast of those who want to follow Jesus and so have life:

Luk 9:60 And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” (ESV)

It is those who don't follow him that are the first "dead" he is speaking of. Jesus also mentions both the spiritually and physically dead here:

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Joh 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Joh 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

The above speaks of spiritual resurrection from sin.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (ESV)

This clearly speaks of physical resurrection.

That's why Paul also says:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (ESV)

Paul's point is clearly that believers once "were dead," but are not any longer. And that is despite still being in the process of physically dying, so we know he isn't saying that we were physically dead.

Sorry friend, but I believe God, not man who thinks he knows better than God and adds his own words and ideas to the scripture.

This is a poor argument. You assume that what you believe is from God and that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't believe God. Yet, anyone could make that claim, so that gets us nowhere. You essentially believe yourself.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I think the Angel was a messenger sent from God to represent God to man.
One who is sent from God is not the God who sent him. But he may be as the one who sent him in a representative sense. Whereby he is said to come in His name, speak His words, and do His works.

According to the Gospel of John, our one God is made up of three Persons. Do you agree? Therefore, the first Person sent the second Person to represent the first Person. The word "angel" means "messenger."