John 3:16

[savedbygrace57]

Scripture is clear, the context is nations.

What you think nations are comprised of ? Frogs ? lol

When it is says nations, it just means all individuals from every nation will be condemned Just as Individuals are the subjects here rev 5:

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[stovebolts]

What you think nations are comprised of ? Frogs ? lol

When it is says nations, it just means all individuals from every nation will be condemned Just as Individuals are the subjects here rev 5:

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

I am sorry if I've failed to see your humor.

The problem with Israel, God's chosen people, is that it went to their heads and they forgot their mission, which was to be a light to the world. Why? Because God loves the world.

God loves the world so much, that he gave his only begotten son to show his great love for the world.

Israel was a chosen people because of a promise. They did nothing to deserve salvation even though they were chosen, yet they still had a choice and to echo the words of Joshua, as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Joshua also makes it clear that it is up to God's chosen that they must "choose you this day whom ye will serve".

It was through Israel that other nations would be saved, yet Israel abused their stature with God. As Christians, we should take this as a warning not to loose our focus, and our mission.

Salvation is for every tribe, tongue and nation. Why? Because God so love the world, that he gave his only begotton son, that whosoever should believe in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

You see, Jesus didn't come into this world to condemn it, but through Him, the world might be saved. The focus has always been on the side of salvation, not condemnation. If we are to be Christlike, shouldn't our focus also be on salvation?

In other words, instead of asking why the darkness is so dark, wouldn't we be more productive in asking why the light isn't shining as bright as it could?

 

[stovebolts]

SavedByGrace57,

How do you understand these verses? Do you believe that Jesus was speaking about those who where chosen?

Matthew 18:1-6 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[WIP]

What does the word "perish" mean to you vis a vis everlasting life. Thank you.

Anywhere but within the presence of the almighty God himself would be perishing.

Suppose someone becomes extremely wealthy. They have everything worldly they could possibly ever want and what they don't have they could buy. They have good health, loving family and friends, money coming out their ears, life on earth is perfect.

How do you suppose they would feel about not having it all? They've experienced the good life and now they know what they no longer have. They are probably feeling depressed and lost. People that have lost it all have been known to get so depressed they commit suicide.

We know what the good life is. It's a life with God in heaven. There is absolutely nothing better. To perish is to never experience heaven.

 

[elijah23]

What does the word "perish" mean to you vis a vis everlasting life. Thank you.

My best guess would be:

Live in torment.

 

[savedbygrace57]

sb:

How do you understand these verses? Do you believe that Jesus was speaking about those who where chosen?

Yes, only the Chosen, those Christ died for believe. Christ death ensures that all He died for become converted and as little children because they are born again by His Spirit.

 

[stovebolts]

sb:



Yes, only the Chosen, those Christ died for believe. Christ death ensures that all He died for become converted and as little children because they are born again by His Spirit.

So your also saying that those who are chosen, also have to be converted. What happens if they are not converted?... Were they really chosen?

 

[cleanfreak]

So your also saying that those who are chosen, also have to be converted. What happens if they are not converted?... Were they really chosen?

Great question. I doubt he will answer though. There have been many questions unanswered. My question still stands unanswered and so does the one Eventide posed to him.

My question:
If the person was chosen (or called) and falls away from the faith, does this mean they are no longer chosen? Did God himself change his mind about them?

I predict now there will be a post added by SBG57 to one of the many other threads concerning this same issue. It is like a cat and mouse game with no ending.

 

[savedbygrace57]

So your also saying that those who are chosen, also have to be converted. What happens if they are not converted?... Were they really chosen?

Right, if they never are converted to God in Christ, they were never Chosen, and Christ never died for them. All for whom Christ died shall be made righteous ! rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. That being made righteous encompasses their conversion..

 

[Wings]

Ahuli, Danus, Mysteryman, Drew, Elijah23, Vic.C, glorydaz,
Archangel_300, Savedbygrace67, StoveBolts, WIP, Cleanfreak

Hello there Ahuli,


'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him
should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.' (John 3:14-18)

This word 'perish' in context is self explanatory really isn't it?

* The option for the Children of Israel in the wilderness (v.14), who had been bitten by serpents,
(in the example given by our Lord in these verses) was 'look and live', if they did not look
then they would die wouldn't they?

* The very act of 'looking' indicated that they believed what God had said.

'And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole:
and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole,
and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man,
when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.'
(Num 21:8,9)

* The option is LIFE or DEATH.


'Whosoever believeth' - PRAISE GOD!!

In Christ Jesus
Wings

 

[stovebolts]

Right, if they never are converted to God in Christ, they were never Chosen, and Christ never died for them. All for whom Christ died shall be made righteous ! rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. That being made righteous encompasses their conversion..

Well, that doesn't sound like the story I read in the Bible. Let's take a look at this a bit closer and discuss can we?

John 3 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f]

If we look at this passage, we know that Jesus is referring to the story being told in Numbers 21. The setting is Exodus and the better we understand what happened, and how Jesus understood what happened in the wilderness the better we will understand what's being said above. (BTW, John writes from a New Exodus perspective)

15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.â€

Just as everyone who looked upon the serpent lived, those who look upon Jesus will live.


16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This is actually a very profound statement and Nicodemus could have taken this several ways as Israel was called God's son who was chosen to be a light to the world. But anyway, Jesus was talking about himself in this passage, and it's being used in the context of Exodus as noted above.

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

In the context of Exodus, we see that is was the Law that was to set Isreal free, yet when the Law first came to the Isrealites, instead of setting them free, it found them worshipping a golden calf and thus, the first thing the law did was condemn the people. Jesus is saying that he didn't come to condemn the world like the Law did, but rather, he would fullfill what the law couldn't do, and that is to bring eternal life.

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

I find it almost ironic how Jesus speaks in the third person in this passage by using "him", and I have to wonder what Nicodemus was thinking...

But I regress, Israel as a whole was God's chosen out of all of the earth, yet they had the choice if they would follow God's commands, or harden their hearts. God delivered all of Israel out of the bondage of Egypt, not one of them was left behind as all of them were chosen, but not all entered into the promise land.

 

[Wings]

New Exodus perspective

Hello SteveBolts,

Can you explain this please?

Thank you
Wings

 

[stovebolts]

Hello Wings,

The better you understand the book of Exodus and Numbers with a dash of Deuteronomy, Leviticus and scoop of Genesis, the more parallels you'll draw in John's writings. John pulls heavily from Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy)

Exodus is, in part, a story of God claiming and redeeming a people of his own from a state of oppression for the purpose of being a light for the surrounding nations by way of a promise and a destination within sight. Exodus is about something new in time / creation that God is working and revealing.

Take a look at the fact that in Exodus, for the first time in history God is claiming a people as his own, and he calls them his son. (Exodus 4:22), but it's more than that, it's about a new creation. Look at the Manna for example in Exodus 16, psalms 105:40, psalms 78:25. Until this time, manna never existed. It's something entirely new that God has created, as back in Genesis 1 and 2 and it rings of both the spiritual and the material... (John 6).

Many, many other parallels can be drawn from John's writings directly to Torah and as you connect those parallels, it starts to become clear that we're talking about a new Exodus, with a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34, Isiah 52:10 and Isiah 53)

 

[savedbygrace57]

stove:

Well, that doesn't sound like the story I read in the Bible.

Romans 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Its in the bible sir. Look in the book of romans !

 

[stovebolts]

stove:



Romans 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Its in the bible sir. Look in the book of romans !

sbg,
While Paul wonderfully expresses this truth in Romans, I would point out that the purpose and intent which Paul writes to the Christians in Rome is much different than the conversation Jesus is having with Nicodemus.

If we were to ask why Jesus was obedient that many be made righteous, perhaps the answer would come by way of God loving the world so much, that He gave his beloved son...

 

[Wings]

Hello Wings,

The better you understand the book of Exodus and Numbers with a dash of Deuteronomy, Leviticus and scoop of Genesis, the more parallels you'll draw in John's writings. John pulls heavily from Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy)

Exodus is, in part, a story of God claiming and redeeming a people of his own from a state of oppression for the purpose of being a light for the surrounding nations by way of a promise and a destination within sight. Exodus is about something new in time / creation that God is working and revealing.

Take a look at the fact that in Exodus, for the first time in history God is claiming a people as his own, and he calls them his son. (Exodus 4:22), but it's more than that, it's about a new creation. Look at the Manna for example in Exodus 16, psalms 105:40, psalms 78:25. Until this time, manna never existed. It's something entirely new that God has created, as back in Genesis 1 and 2 and it rings of both the spiritual and the material... (John 6).

Many, many other parallels can be drawn from John's writings directly to Torah and as you connect those parallels, it starts to become clear that we're talking about a new Exodus, with a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34, Isiah 52:10 and Isiah 53)

Thank you SteveBolts.

I will take a careful look at what you have said.

In Christ Jesus
Wings

 

[savedbygrace57]

sb

sbg,
While Paul wonderfully expresses this truth in Romans, I would point out that the purpose and intent which Paul writes to the Christians in Rome is much different than the conversation Jesus is having with Nicodemus.

Paul and Jesus spoke the same thing on Salvation, in Fact , Jesus chose Paul specifically and gave Him the Gospel, even after He was risen.

The fact of the matter, Christ death of obedience ensures everyone He died for shall be made righteous , that includes being regenerated, faith and repentance and all rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And so the obvious conclusion is all the unrighteous paul talks about here 1 cor 6:

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Christ did not die for..or He would have made them righteous..

 

[stovebolts]

SBG,

To use those passages for the purpose of a logically deduced doctrine is to completely miss the gist of what Paul is writing and becomes dry, academic and stale.

In the matter of 1 Cor 6:9, it's a call to repentance and a reminder to some of where they were, and how God has transformed their life. Can a fornicator, a liar, a homosexual or a swindler inherit the kingdom of God? According to scripture, all of these types of people can be transformed by Christ and all of them can be washed and cleansed by the blood of Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11 Some of you once lived this way.8 But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ9 and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

sb:

In the matter of 1 Cor 6:9, it's a call to repentance and a reminder to some of where they were, and how God has transformed their life. Can a fornicator, a liar, a homosexual or a swindler inherit the kingdom of God? According to scripture, all of these types of people can be transformed by Christ and all of them can be washed and cleansed by the blood of Christ.

It does not matter what type of sinners they are for whom Christ died, all of them shall be made righteous by virtue of His one obedience of death..rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The point remains however, if they are never made righteous, then Christ did not die for them..

 

[cleanfreak]

Great question. I doubt he will answer though. There have been many questions unanswered. My question still stands unanswered and so does the one Eventide posed to him.

My question:
If the person was chosen (or called) and falls away from the faith, does this mean they are no longer chosen? Did God himself change his mind about them?

I predict now there will be a post added by SBG57 to one of the many other threads concerning this same issue. It is like a cat and mouse game with no ending.

Hello...SBG57.....for the third time now, I am still waiting on an answer to the questions above......