Bible Study John Calvin's Predestination.

[Chopper]

I agree Mal...even the T of Tulip (if taken as absolute incapability) is on error both with scripture and with what the Apostles taught the next generations of leadership. This particular error came by the judicial interpretation of the fall. When God said "Thou shalt not eat of the tree...for in the day you do you shall surely die", He was not threatening them with punishment, He was warning them from love of the foreseen consequence, just as when we tell our child "Thou shalt not run out into the busy traffic, for in the day you do you shall surely get hit by a car" we are not saying if they do we will get a car and hit them with it we are warning them of the consequence because we love them and are aware of what for them is an unseen possibility. If they did it and learned would we not be willing to forgive them? How much greater is the Father's love and ability to love? Would it grieve us or even anger us that they would not trust our word or doubt our motive? Yes! But would we love them less or cast them away or condemn the, from that point on? No!

Brother Paul, the T in TULIP stands for, Total depravity (no one is capable of saving oneself). Are you implying by this statement of yours,
"even the T of Tulip (if taken as absolute incapability) is on error both with scripture and with what the Apostles taught the next generations of leadership." That there is a way that a person can be saved by himself apart from God's plan of Salvation?

 

[smaller]

Another irreconcilable posture of Calvin's T in tulip is this. All of Israel are stated in scripture to be Gods children. (ref: Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6 for quick examples.)

IF God had/has totally depraved children, IS that a reflection of their Father? I might say so. And, is God then forced to torture His Own children forever in fire or eternally kill them for their disobedience?

It's just plain stupid to see things that way, imho.

 

[Chopper]

You are very correct in that idea Chopper, that the elect were NOT unsympathetic from their unbelieving cohorts and NOT as "human" as everyone else. They related to people and bemoaned the conditions of the unbelievers and related to them all, deeply.

In our believing it is not in all cases a favor to us, as Jesus shows us by personal example, in His sufferings and tears. Any of us who hasn't spent a lot of time in the "why" zones on these matters just ain't payin attention. I've why'd God without end. Like a little baby with incessant questions.


And that's where there is a big distinction between the freewill camps and the determinists. Determinists for the most part understand that God can do anything. That includes making evil for His Own Purposes and Reigning over it. Freewill stumbles badly at this point, quite falsely thinking that IF God created evil then He is evil. That is faulty logic. God IS Great Enough to create evil and make PERFECT come about from it in the end. He's Far Greater than anything we can imagine.

This I know, from experiences. And these things, these exposures to adversity and witnessing Gods! 'forms' of deliverance caused me and led me to read His Word differently, with Him Solidly at the Top and in control of all things and everything. Even when it is not easily apparent to most.

Freewill is illusory. I learned a long time ago that the sphere of my control is about the length of my arms. Not worth much. I'd take Gods Will over my own any day. Nor is God in "need" of anything of us. That is another fallacy of the freewill camps. God can make children of Abraham out of rocks if He wanted to. Matt. 3:9.

IF God wants anything He's certainly capable of getting it Himself without any help from us.

Wow my friend. It's been a long time since I've read such a wonderful statement on the absolute power of control that YHWH has over everything and everyone. Surely, I am moved to present you with a Chopper Home Run. Bravo smaller.

 

[smaller]

Foreknowledge is not the same as pre-determination (fore-ordination). God knows everything that will ever happen in future, but He is NOT the cause of everything that happens. But the Westminster Confession of Faith (Reformed Theology) teaches that God is the ultimate cause of everything. That is clearly false when you look at all the evil that has existed, now exists, and will exist.

Whether God created the power of evil or not (HE DID create it as well as created the devil) the fact is that evil exists.

And further, IF God has the power of intervention and does nothing, God is just as guilty as anyone else.

 

[Runner]

v

I'd have to agree with you Jim.

In this discussion the beliefs of the early church should be allowed.
It would not be a discussion of "Catholic" doctrine, but beliefs of the early church which DID EXIST!

And why should it be allowed?
Because the church did not begin in the year 1,500 AD, and it would behoove us to know what the early church fathers thought of all this. Those that actually knew someone who knew an Apostle or disciple, and those that were the next generation (and those even after this).

IOW, the closer you are to an event, the more truth will be derived from its witnesses.

Wondering

Absolutely. This notion that nothing preceding the Reformation is worth discussing - or, worse yet, is somehow dangerous or offensive - is just bizarre, downright Orwellian. And to lump all pre-1500 writings into the category "Catholic" is likewise bizarre. For those who may not know, the online Christian Classics Ethereal Library, http://www.ccel.org/, is a goldmine of early Christian writings that can be read online or downloaded.

 

[GodsGrace]

Absolutely. This notion that nothing preceding the Reformation is worth discussing - or, worse yet, is somehow dangerous or offensive - is just bizarre, downright Orwellian. And to lump all pre-1500 writings into the category "Catholic" is likewise bizarre. For those who may not know, the online Christian Classics Ethereal Library, http://www.ccel.org/, is a goldmine of early Christian writings that can be read online or downloaded.

Am currently reading the beginning of the church on above site, beginning with Adam and Eve!

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

Another irreconcilable posture of Calvin's T in tulip is this. All of Israel are stated in scripture to be Gods children. (ref: Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6 for quick examples.)

IF God had/has totally depraved children, IS that a reflection of their Father? I might say so. And, is God then forced to torture His Own children forever in fire or eternally kill them for their disobedience?

It's just plain stupid to see things that way, imho.

smaller, where are you coming up with a belief like this? You said, "IF God had/has totally depraved children, IS that a reflection of their Father?
Total depravity, Webster says is "a state of corruption due to original sin held in Calvinism to infect every part of man's nature and to make the natural man unable to know or obey God"

The majority of Church fundamental doctrines include "Total depravity of man." Notice what the Disciple of John says....
John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Condemned because the "he" in that verse, inherited original sin from Adam. For me to believe your statements I'd have to believe that Adams sin did not effect me at all.

 

[Jim Parker]

Augustine. Why did he ever write anything?
I could quote Augustine and show that he's for double predestination.
I could quote Augustine and show that he's against it.
He changed his mind on Grace.
He changed his mind on evil and what why it exists.

I don't remember too much about him, but I do remember the above and to know what he believes would require knowing at what point of his life he believed it. I think he ended up not believing in double predestination, but in predestination as accepted by the original church.

Wondering

Augustine was a work in process as we all are but he wrote profusely about his theological conclusions.
At the end of his life he asked that he be forgiven for anything he'd gotten wrong.

P.S. Bishop Ware says it all...Where there is no freedom, there can be no love.

No one can force another person to love him.

My impression of Calvinism (from the Cannons of Dort, not necessarily from Calvin) is that man is reduced to a programmable beast with an initial operating system that can only produce evil acts and intentions and does not have the "app" that allows him/her to love God. Salvation happens when God sends His I.T. person (the Holy Spirit) to upgrade the "saved" person's software so that (s)he is now able to do good and to love God. That renders mankind a biological robot. I don't think that such a thing can be said to be make "in the image and likeness of God."



iakov the fool

 

[brother Paul]

Probably the easiest flaw to observe in Calvin's TULIP is the T portion.

Now why would this be? It's quite easy to see. IF we read this scripture for example:

1 John 3:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

or this one:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

and there are literally hundreds more like it, it quickly becomes PAINFULLY obvious that Calvin misses this fact sorely and is waaay too mancentric in his approach to the subject matters of scripture. Who is the Totally Depraved in the above? ding ding ding.

We should easily be able to observe that the accounts of mankind are not just about mankind. They are also every bit of accounts of our adversaries as well. And scriptures present that these parties are OVERLAPPED.

Religious people HATE to hear this fact. But then again, it's not just "them" that are reacting adversely, is it? lol

Though every scripture is true if one takes the other 20 or so that APPEAR to oppose or contradict these and fails to see how this coin has two aspects or sides, then one is stuck picking one side OR the other and such is the war and division of the body started 500 years ago by this man.

One of the main errors (and accusations) of the Calvinist is that Orthodoxy and Arminianism teach that men can choose salvation or not and that is a terribly deceptive misunderstanding. Unlike Pelegius who taught this heresy, Arminius taught and knew that ONLY GOD decides who is saved and who is not. Even if a person appears to exhibit faith all men have sinned and God OWES no man anything. What Arminius was saying is that upon God's initiation (prevenient grace) then man must choose to submit to His Lordship or reject His offer and remian lord of his own life. He was saying God does not CREATE men condemned (we achieve that without His help). Let me give you the Bible's very first example:

In the story of Cain, his sacrifice was insufficient (no shed blood from fruits and vegies)...Cain gets mad at Abel (like a Jerry Springer guest)...then BY GRACE God audibly speaks to Cain and tells him "If you go and do it right will it also not go well with thee?"

At the same time He warns Cain (BY GRACE from love) that if he does not then sin awaits....

Notice that Cain (after Adam) is NOT automatically a condemned man without capability or hope! God BY GRACE has offered him the solution and warned him of the consequence of standing in his pride and self-will.

Now Cain was quite able of "go and do it right" and had he done so it WOULD HAVE gone well with him as well as Abel, OR ELSE God who CANNOT lie would not have offered him the reward (God is not a man that He should lie). Now God, foreknowing (not causing) exactly the choice Cain was going to make...still gave him the opportunity...therefore when Cain chooses to disregard God's word and do what was right in his own eyes as if he was his own lord, he was TRULY without excuse.

Now I must admit I have never read the works of Jacob Arminius but cut my Christian teeth being convinced of Calvinism and learning all the arguments to defend that position and then one day after a long discussion with a man that was Antiochian Orthodox I took the man at his challenge. It was this:

Prayerfully simply read from Genesis to Revelation and forget ignoring the opposing scriptures or re-interpreting them by your doctrine and just read ALL God says on this issue and accept ALL OF IT for simply what He says not what your teachers have told you it means...and then just trust the Holy Spirit to bring you to the truth.

I did that and after a month or so of fighting Him I threw in the towel and ran from Calvinism as fast as I could.

Do you know what the "imperative" mood is? All commands and requests from God or Jesus are in the imperative mood. The imperative always precludes the recipients ability to respond. When He says "do not steal" this precludes that you do not HAVE TO...no one therefore is created to HAVE TO steal (yet many do)...likewise when He says "Turn unto me" it precludes that we are able....the problem is that we will not, not cannot...we love being like unto a god (Genesis 3:5)....like Satan God says one thing and we say NO and do what is right in OUR OWN EYES...

 

[brother Paul]

Did Adam's sin effect us all? Yes! From Adam we inherit a propensity to sin just as he did. We will all sin (transgress that which was/is His will and do what is right in our own eyes at some point) but we are not born condemned (Calvin's Doctrine was a doctrine of wrath not love....Jesus came along and cleared that up) just sinners (even when we have not yet sinned)...remember the saved (the not condemned) are also sinners....we are saved BY GRACE (God owes no man anything for all sin).

God said "Do not eat" and as Genesis 3:6 shows Adam went against God's loving warning and ate it anyway. He rejected God as Lord and acted as his own lord. He was now like a god deciding good and evil for himself (Genesis 3:5) just like Satan who questioned and refused to do God's will regarding mankind (who God loved and still loves)...OUR sin (Isa 59:2) separates us from God...not He from us...the sins of the fathers are not held against the children and Adam was our father (we will do this on our own because of this tendency we inherited from him)...God does not Create little fetal devils!

 

[Malachi]

Whether God created the power of evil or not (HE DID create it as well as created the devil) the fact is that evil exists.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. God did NOT create the Devil to begin with. Indeed Lucifer was the highest ranking and most beautiful angel in Heaven. But he did have free will (as did all the angels). The fact that evil exist is because God ALLOWS it to exist for His own righteous purposes -- primarily to test the hearts of all men. But it will exist only for a season. In view of eternity, and in view of the fact that for God a thousand years are as one day, evil may not exist for more that 7 *days*.

And further, IF God has the power of intervention and does nothing, God is just as guilty as anyone else.

What makes you think God did *nothing*? He gave man free will, but He also gave him a command and a warning. When sin entered into the world, the curse of sin and death came into existence. And there can be no doubt that at that moment Hell (the Lake of Fire) was created for the devil and his angels, and now serves for those who will not receive Christ. God's ultimate goal is to isolate evil and evildoers (and all sinners) within the Lake of Fire for eternity (and in outer darkness) so that His creation is cleansed, made new, and remains righteous for eternity.

 

[Deborah13]

ee with most of this except the last, "Ultimately, the underlying flaw of Reformed soteriology" It appears to me that writers of old, as well as new, isolate the group known as the "Elect" chosen before the foundation of the world....
Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

I read Ephesisns like this....
Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us [the seed of Abraham] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us [the seed of Abraham] unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Gal_3:16 and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, `And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, `And to thy seed,' which is Christ;
Gal_3:29 and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise--heirs.

 

[Deborah13]

Absolutely. This notion that nothing preceding the Reformation is worth discussing - or, worse yet, is somehow dangerous or offensive - is just bizarre, downright Orwellian. And to lump all pre-1500 writings into the category "Catholic" is likewise bizarre. For those who may not know, the online Christian Classics Ethereal Library, http://www.ccel.org/, is a goldmine of early Christian writings that can be read online or downloaded.

I love the Christian Classics Library. It is the easiest place to find the writings of the early church fathers. Thanks for posting it here.

 

[brother Paul]

Brother Paul, the T in TULIP stands for, Total depravity (no one is capable of saving oneself). Are you implying by this statement of yours,
"even the T of Tulip (if taken as absolute incapability) is on error both with scripture and with what the Apostles taught the next generations of leadership." That there is a way that a person can be saved by himself apart from God's plan of Salvation?

(Are you saying) That there is a way that a person can be saved by himself apart from God's plan of Salvation?

Not at all! I believe I made that clear when I pointed out the the error/judgment/accusation of Calvinists against Arminians in this post.

"One of the main errors (and accusations) of the Calvinist is that Orthodoxy and Arminianism teach that men can choose salvation or not and that is a terribly deceptive misunderstanding. Unlike Pelegius who taught this heresy, Arminius taught and knew that ONLY GOD decides who is saved and who is not. Even if a person appears to exhibit faith all men have sinned and God OWES no man anything. What Arminius was saying is that upon God's initiation (prevenient grace) then man must choose to submit to His Lordship or reject His offer and remain lord of his own life."

God's plan of salvation IS that we must accept or receive Christ. I am saying that after God initiates via the word of the Spirit that salvation is available to us He requires our initial cooperation of intent. I gave Cain as the first example from Scripture. Even though Cain had offered and inadequate sacrifice God's love was greater then his self-willed attempt and God by grace (because He owes no man anything) in His love even for Cain, initiates the opportunity for Cain to do it right. He explains what He requires and the consequence of not complying. Cain chooses his way over Yah's way and thus the Consequence.

The same scenario is found over and over throughout the Bible. Take John 1 for another example (I could use the example of Abraham, a case in Matthew, Paul in Ephesians 1, Revelations, etc., to show other examples)...In John 1 the Holy Spirit, by grace, reveals Jesus Christ to be none other than the Word of God (the Memra of YHVH as the Jews understood Him, or YHVH manifest, incarnate in the man Messiah Jesus)...He describes this one (the very brightness of His glory, the visible image of the invisible God)...He explains how He dwells among us (as promised in Zechariah 2 and other places)...to dwell here (skeenoo...to pitch tent) means that God Himself is tabernacling among men...The Holy Spirit though John tells us of God's plan/intent in verse 12....it says

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

So a plenary reading of the text shows us that after this revelation of Jesus as the Christ "as many as received Him" are given the right or power (the same word means either in Hebrew/Aramaic which is how they think), "to them He gave"

So the initiation precedes the opportunity (for why would one need a physician if they did not know they were sick) and then receiving precedes the giving....TO BECOME! Obviously before this they were not something that now they are....what is that? The children (or sons) of God.

He then goes on and tells us this being born from above (made a new creature after the last Adam, Christ) is neither a matter of Genealogy (blood), not as result of sexual intercourse (the will of the flesh), nor of the will of man (our choice to BE a child of God like some practice today...just say a prayer), but of God (through "re"-generation or the New Birth)

So this IS God's plan...notice clearly what it does not say:

It DOES NOT say that those born of God (His children/sons already) are those who will receive Him....

He initiates, we respond (He sees the heart not the outer behavior), then He saves or does not save....

Now people can call this a form of semi-Pelegianism if they wish (theologically being influenced by Calvin) but there is no such thing...even as Augustine himself pointed out one in error extreme makes it so much free will God's grace has nothing to do with it (Pelegianism) and the other in error extreme makes it so much God's grace man has no responsibility (God made me do it...whatever that may be...pure Calvinism)

So I qualified what I meant regarding the T....I said it is in error if it is taken to mean "absolute incapablity"....that simply is NOT Biblical OR what the Apostles went on to teach (which IMO provides a great witness)...and was never the teaching of any in the church until after Augustine's position against Pelegius was misunderstood by some....

Hope that helped and feel free to question or disagree my dear brother....

In His love

Paul

 

[brother Paul]

smaller, where are you coming up with a belief like this? You said, "IF God had/has totally depraved children, IS that a reflection of their Father?
Total depravity, Webster says is "a state of corruption due to original sin held in Calvinism to infect every part of man's nature and to make the natural man unable to know or obey God"

The majority of Church fundamental doctrines include "Total depravity of man." Notice what the Disciple of John says....
John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Condemned because the "he" in that verse, inherited original sin from Adam. For me to believe your statements I'd have to believe that Adams sin did not effect me at all.

As you described, according to Webster "Total depravity, Webster says is "a state of corruption due to original sin held in Calvinism to infect every part of man's nature and to make the natural man unable to know or obey God"

And this is true. This IS what is held in Calvinism AND Middle Ages Catholicism (when they likewise ruled as Tyrants claiming it to be God's will because every little thing is willed by Him even evil...according to these two groups, and now modern Islam extremists).

So I believe the Bible teaches (I have provided some examples) that this kind of remains true but only until God reveals Himself to them and/or they HEAR the word, the gospel of truth, the offer of salvation.

Did the sin of Adam (the first or ancestral sin) CAUSE total depravity (absolute incapability) such that when God speaks to them or shows them they are sinners in need of a Savior they are INCAPABLE of responding? Sorry if we take into account the whole revealed council of God into consideration, the Bible just does not teach that (though it appears one scripture here and one scripture there can be interpreted that way).

Secondly, the other half of the "original sin" concept is this notion so encapsulates a definition of God's nature and capability that God purposely and intentionally births little devils who if they die before baptism go straight to hell (God forbid we should so accuse the LORD)...the question then is "Are we held responsible for Adam's sin as soon as we are born?" Are we AUTOMATICALLY by nature worthy of death/condemnation (eternal separation from God because of what father Adam did)?

So though perhaps I should start in Torah this passage from Ezekiel is IMO very clear...

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Nor the father's father, nor the father's father's father and so on...my or anyone's condemnation is OUR own doing...it is OUR sin that separates us from God. To teach otherwise one must either ignore or re-interpret (via the doctrine one was taught) far too any scriptures. God does not hold US responsible for Adam's sin...but because of this we will all sin.

Please feel free to disagree, rebuke and so on....but I BELIEVE...when Christ knocks on the door, He will enter and be with those who open it (not that He is already "with" the ones that open and not "with" the ones who will not)...for Him to come in after the initial knocking we must (and can) open...that does NOT make salvation our doing, nor does it make our response a "work". We do not do it to earn something nor by doing it do we deserve something but by accepting what He has said we must (the offer of this BY GRACE through faith salvation) we gain what He has designed and promised for us.

Those that open are not the already regenerated (as Calvin taught) but those that open are those who BECOME regenerated. And yes God knows them that are His....He knows who will open and who will not before He knocks but the same opportunity is given to all so that they are without excuse.

 

[Jim Parker]

Notice that Cain (after Adam) is NOT automatically a condemned man without capability or hope! God BY GRACE has offered him the solution and warned him of the consequence of standing in his pride and self-will.

Also notice, that even after he murdered his brother, God doesn't abandon him; in fact, He protects Cain from being murdered by someone else.
Hmmmmmm............

 

[brother Paul]

I read Ephesisns like this....
Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us [the seed of Abraham] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us [the seed of Abraham] unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Gal_3:16 and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, `And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, `And to thy seed,' which is Christ;
Gal_3:29 and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise--heirs.

And do not forget to complete Paul's though by going to verses 13 and 14 of Ephesians 1 where he concludes this discussion. Taken alone these early verses can be misconstrued.

 

[smaller]

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. God did NOT create the Devil to begin with.

There are no exceptions to Gods creation of "all things."

Indeed Lucifer was the highest ranking and most beautiful angel in Heaven. But he did have free will (as did all the angels).

Unsupported assertion. I seriously don't know how anyone can make the claims that Satan was at one time Holy or that Satan has freewill because neither posture is presented in the scriptures. As far as I can tell that entire premise is a fairy tale of imaginations, void of scriptural basis.

 

[Jim Parker]

Please feel free to disagree, rebuke and so on....but I BELIEVE...when Christ knocks on the door, He will enter and be with those who open it (not that He is already "with" the ones that open and not "with" the ones who will not)...for Him to come in after the initial knocking we must (and can) open...that does NOT make salvation our doing, nor does it make our response a "work". We do not do it to earn something nor by doing it do we deserve something but by accepting what He has said we must (the offer of this BY GRACE through faith salvation) we gain what He has designed and promised for us.

Our opening the door to Jesus' knocking is cooperating with God.
That does not make salvation our doing.
That does not mean we have earned salvation. The only thing we "earn" is death, the wages we earn for sin.
It does make our response a "work" as it an action that we freely choose to take. Any action is a "work." Jesus doesn't kick down the door, we have to open it.
Rev 3:20 says Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The word "if" means that opening the door is conditional; it is our choice.

And if it is God who makes us open it and we have no part in it then we are just God's toys and salvation is a fraud.

Salvation is by grace alone because it is God alone who can save us and no one can force God to do anything. Salvaion is offered to all mankind because of God's gracious act of love. The fact that only God has the power to give mankind eternal life does not exclude the necessity for man to accept or reject the gift. If someone forces me to take his gift then it is not a gift; it is an imposition.

 

[Malachi]

Brother Paul, the T in TULIP stands for, Total depravity (no one is capable of saving oneself). Are you implying by this statement of yours, "even the T of Tulip (if taken as absolute incapability) is on error both with scripture and with what the Apostles taught the next generations of leadership." That there is a way that a person can be saved by himself apart from God's plan of Salvation?

This is where all the misunderstanding begins -- "saved by himself". Non-Calvinists (Biblicists) do not teach that anyone can be saved by themselves. Arminians speak of *prevenient grace*, and the Bible speaks of the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit working together on the sinner to bring him to salvation. Furthermore, the Bible tells us that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all draw men to Christ.

Total Depravity teaches total inability, hence the false teaching that sinners must be born again BEFORE they believe the Gospel. Scripture reveals just the opposite. Faith cometh by hearing the Word of God, and saving faith results in the gift of the Holy Spirit. Then the Holy Spirit regenerates the sinner.