John MacArthur - Jesus Did Not Have to Shed His Blood to Save Us!

[Free]

That's what you said awhile back when I explained the Chapter you want to go over again. See? You won't respond to the my questions because you can't.

No, I can’t, because most of the time I can’t figure out what you’re asking or what your point is.

As far as this discussion goes, you have avoided answering almost everything and every passage I have provided and the questions I have asked.

I explain the passages you cite, then you ignore what I say and just go on with another passage that makes no sense with all of the scriptures as a whole. Your beliefs are contrary. So I'll answer one more from you.

It isn’t my position that makes no sense. You say Jesus is merely an example, but that is an insufficient view of Christ’s death and resurrection.

Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

Isaiah is speaking of the chastizement Jesus submitted Himself to which all of Gods' sons must experience and endure or they are bastards.

But you completely ignore the many other things the chapter states, most of which I have given. It clearly states that “he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed,” “the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all,” and “it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief.”

This is only in reference to Christ, because only he could “make many to be accounted righteous,” through his death because “he shall bear their iniquities.”

I don’t see how it is possible to read Isa 53 and not see the clear teaching of substitutionary atonement.

Heb.12

he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things whichhe suffered; Heb.5:8

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Heb.12:6

God teaches all His children to show every sinner love. Even His enemies.

Of course.

Is it true Jesus suffered as The Righteous Man.....in His Fathers' eyes.
Is it true Jesus was unjustly called a sinner and treated as one, even thiugh it wasn't true?

If you refuse then I think it best not to try to reason any further. You may have forgotten how I told you why I no longer talk to @brightflame. You're just doing the same thing

Jesus suffered because “it was the will of the LORD to crush him,” to have him “pierced for our transgressions” and “crushed for our iniquities.” Jesus had our sins placed him—“the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all”—and took the penalty of out sins so that we could be saved—“upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace.”

That is the gospel.

You stated on page three:

‘In other words, "journeyman committed sin, but Jesus is being punished "for it."
This is heresy.‘

That isn’t heresy at all, that is the gospel. Jesus did for us what otherwise couldn’t be done. I had previously asked you: What is the main predicament of humans and what got us there? But you didn’t answer.

The problem is sin. Paul says that “the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Death is the punishment for our sins. Jesus died to take our penalty, our punishment, upon himself so that we could live.

Your position leaves us dead in our sins, since (supposedly) Jesus didn’t pay that penalty. That means no one has eternal life. That is most certainly not good news.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

No, I can’t, because most of the time I can’t figure out what you’re asking or what your point is.

Forget the text altogether.

I'm asking you from your own knowledge of the Bible,

Was Jesus a righteous man in the the eyes of His Father?

Was Jesus looked on as evil by ungody men who misjudged Him?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

It's stunning how I sat in a reformed church for over 40 years and didn't understand the gospel. How could I stand at the foot of the cross God was hanged on and not realize this is what it means when the Bible says, "He bore our sins"???

God patiently allowed Himself to be mocked spit on tortured and murdered, not "take my place."

He wasn't condemning Himself. He was holding back His own righteous anger.

The only begotten showed what our Father does every day... and night. God doesn't condemn Himself every day. God mercy is new every morning. If God was a human He'd do the same thing.

Hmm...maybe the Messiah the Jewish people are waiting for will come some day. They certainly won't believe in a God that punishes the innocent in place of the guilty.
They know their Messiah will be a man who practices and teaches the grace of God and will defeat any enemy that ccomes against Him, they can't see Jesus that way with all the lies being told about Him.

 

[electedbyHim]

It's stunning how I sat in a reformed church for over 40 years and didn't understand the gospel. How could I stand at the foot of the cross God was hanged on and not realize this is what it means when the Bible says, "He bore our sins"???

God patiently allowed Himself to be mocked spit on tortured and murdered, not "take my place."

He wasn't condemning Himself. He was holding back His own righteous anger.

The only begotten showed what our Father does every day... and night. God doesn't condemn Himself every day. God mercy is new every morning. If God was a human He'd do the same thing.

Hmm...maybe the Messiah the Jewish people are waiting for will come some day. They certainly won't believe in a God that punishes the innocent in place of the guilty.
They know their Messiah will be a man who practices and teaches the grace of God and will defeat any enemy that ccomes against Him, they can't see Jesus that way with all the lies being told about Him.

Christ did not take your place for sin and your death?

If not who did?

 

[Free]

Forget the text altogether.

I'm asking you from your own knowledge of the Bible,

Was Jesus a righteous man in the the eyes of His Father?

Was Jesus looked on as evil by ungody men who misjudged Him?

Of course, on both counts, but that’s beside the point that his central purpose in coming to Earth was to die in our place for our sins. It was God’s will for the Jewish leaders to misjudge and hate Jesus so that they would crucify him, not knowing that it was necessary to make atonement for all mankind’s sins, to be the propitiation for our sins, and reconcile is to God. It was God’s will to crush him by placing our sins upon him.

Why do you think Jesus cried out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”?

 

[Free]

It's stunning how I sat in a reformed church for over 40 years and didn't understand the gospel.

I agree; that is stunning.

How could I stand at the foot of the cross God was hanged on and not realize this is what it means when the Bible says, "He bore our sins"???

God patiently allowed Himself to be mocked spit on tortured and murdered, not "take my place."

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, (ESV)

Gal 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, (ESV)

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, (ESV)

That Jesus died for our sins, having our sins placed on him, is without question. That is central to the gospel; there is no gospel without it.

He wasn't condemning Himself. He was holding back His own righteous anger.

He was providing himself as the eternal propitiatory sacrifice for every sin ever committed or ever will be committed. He did what the blood of animals could not do, which is why we no longer need sacrifices to make atonement for our sins.

Hmm...maybe the Messiah the Jewish people are waiting for will come some day. They certainly won't believe in a God that punishes the innocent in place of the guilty.
They know their Messiah will be a man who practices and teaches the grace of God and will defeat any enemy that ccomes against Him, they can't see Jesus that way with all the lies being told about Him.

If they don’t understand that Christ died for their sins, they won’t be saved. Of course, many have been saved because it makes sense in light of the OT sacrificial system.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Of course, on both counts, but that’s beside the point that his central purpose in coming to Earth was to die in our place for our sins.

I won't cite anymore scripture which prohibits substituionary sacrifice in a penal sense.

God is always well pleased with and said obey Jesus. The accusers are the the only ones that saw Jesus incorrectly and influenced others. Remember this now when Jesus is being seem as a sinner.
And crushed as already interpreted as all adopted thereafter.

It was God’s will for the Jewish leaders to misjudge and hate Jesus so that they would crucify him, not knowing that it was necessary to make atonement for all mankind’s sins, to be the propitiation for our sins, and reconcile is to God.

No. It was Gods' will to show the Jewish leaders that they hated him because they didn't know Him. They didn't understand prophecy because they were't really serving God and needed to repent. And if leaders aren't following the word of God then the blind are leading the congregation.
And please remember Jesus also came to divide. These two things which shed light you have totally ignored in every conversation we've ever had Please...stop ignoring this.

Why do you think Jesus cried out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”?

I told you already. We went inti detail on thus and you never answered me back. I never forgot that, because I knew it would happen. It hapoened with @brightflame too. In fact brightflame just started deleting my oists in the Jw forum so we don't talj anymore. You knew alm this.

For the 2nd time, Jesus cited the 1st verse of Psa.22 because the all knowing relighioys keaders mock our Aavior as sufferex on the cross. They thought God had abandoned Him. Maybe they weee reformed Jews.

Point is, Psa.22 us a salm if hope. The entire psalm after David (not Jesus) felt alone says God never abandons the righteous.

I guess Jesus decided to show those so called scholars just how bad their understand pf scrioture was.

Ir maybe Jesus only knew the 1st verse of the Psa22 and really did feel left alone,

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. Jn.16:32

Christ did not take your place for sin and your death?

If not who did?

Nobody. I repented. Jesus took our Fathers' place with a covering on or it would be like fire on Mt. Sinai. Mt Sinai, where the Israelites were terrified will look like a weenie roast when Jesus returns

 

[journeymanisnothing]

&electedbyhim
I somehow answered your post in with Frees'.

 

[electedbyHim]

I won't cite anymore scripture which prohibits substituionary sacrifice in a penal sense.

God is always well pleased with and said obey Jesus. The accusers are the the only ones that saw Jesus incorrectly and influenced others. Remember this now when Jesus is being seem as a sinner.
And crushed as already interpreted as all adopted thereafter.

No. It was Gods' will to show the Jewish leaders that they hated him because they didn't know Him. They didn't understand prophecy because they were't really serving God and needed to repent. And if leaders aren't following the word of God then the blind are leading the congregation.
And please remember Jesus also came to divide. These two things which shed light you have totally ignored in every conversation we've ever had Please...stop ignoring this.

I told you already. We went inti detail on thus and you never answered me back. I never forgot that, because I knew it would happen. It hapoened with @brightflame too. In fact brightflame just started deleting my oists in the Jw forum so we don't talj anymore. You knew alm this.

For the 2nd time, Jesus cited the 1st verse of Psa.22 because the all knowing relighioys keaders mock our Aavior as sufferex on the cross. They thought God had abandoned Him. Maybe they weee reformed Jews.

Point is, Psa.22 us a salm if hope. The entire psalm after David (not Jesus) felt alone says God never abandons the righteous.

I guess Jesus decided to show those so called scholars just how bad their understand pf scrioture was.

Ir maybe Jesus only knew the 1st verse of the Psa22 and really did feel left alone,

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. Jn.16:32


Nobody. I repented. Jesus took our Fathers' place with a covering on or it would be like fire on Mt. Sinai. Mt Sinai, where the Israelites were terrified will look like a weenie roast when Jesus returns

You disregard Scripture about Christ.

1 Peter 2:24 nasb and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

2 Corinthians 5:21 nasb He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Isaiah 53:6 nasb All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You disregard Scripture about Christ.

1 Peter 2:24 nasb and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Jesus bore the sins if spitting on God, because that's what they were doing to Him.
You think wanting God crucified isn't a sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21 nasb He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I told you He appeared as a sinner to those who hated Him.

Isaiah 53:6 nasb All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

I told you He appeared as a sinner to those who hated Him.

You haven't commented in anything I've said. I can't talk to you anymore if you're unwilling you agree with me right now that what was done to Jesus is the most sinful violation of the Torah ever committed on earth. Nice talking to you.

 

[electedbyHim]

Jesus bore the sins if spitting on God, because that's what they were doing to Him.
You think wanting God crucified isn't a sin.

I told you He appeared as a sinner to those who hated Him.

I told you He appeared as a sinner to those who hated Him.

You haven't commented in anything I've said. I can't talk to you anymore if yiu're unwilling you agree with me right niw that what was done to Jesus is the most sinful violation of the Torah ever committed on earth.

That's not what those scriptures say that posted.

He bore MY sins on the cross.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

That's not what those scriptures say that posted.

He bore MY sins on the cross.

Yes it is what those scriptures say because even though people who never knew and therefire cound never sin against Jesus in flesh all have sinned against God so there's no difference between sinning against the Father and Son. And sinning against His followers is no different,

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples.....Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?..., I am Jesus whomthou persecutest. from KJV no need to cite ch & vs. Ignore ad you wish. I'm done with you for sure.

 

[electedbyHim]

Yes it is what those scriptures say because even though people who never knew and therefire cound never sin against Jesus in flesh all have sinned against God so there's no difference between sinning against the Father and Son. And sinning against His followers is no different,

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples.....Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?..., I am Jesus whomthou persecutest. from KJV no need to cite ch & vs. Ignore ad you wish. I'm done with you for sure.

Again more confusion in your post.

I have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Slander is making a false statement about another person ,

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Ex.20:15

Neither shalt thou bea rfalse witness against thy neighbour. Deu.5:20

For I have received o fthe Lord that which also I deliveredunto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which [b{he was betrayed took bread: [/b]1Cor.11:23 KJV

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been goodfor that man if he had not been born. Mt.26:24 KJV

And ye shall be betrayed Lk.21:16

It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of hish ousehold! Mt.10:25 KJV

 

[journeymanisnothing]

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Gal.5:14 KJV

Either Jesus wasn't their neighbor, or they were breaking the law.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Eph.5:6

 

[journeymanisnothing]

For Christ ALSO hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pet.3:18

Who beside Christ suffered (like Him?)

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that [/u]ye suffer for well doing, [/u]than for evil doing. 1Pet.3:17 KJV

Jesus suffered for doing right, not as a lawbreaker, yet refused to testify in court against His accusers. He adjourned sentencing until judgment day,

Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him: But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God. Ecc.8:11-13 KJV

Unbelievers are always under a state of condemnation,

He that believeth onhim is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemnedalready Jn.3:18

There is one way to overturn sentencing,

And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.13:2-3 KJV

 

[Randy]

Lev_17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

1Co_10:16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Rev_7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The Fathers will has been made plain to all. Paul wrote not all preach Christ out of pure motives, but thanked God Christ was preached for we know no one comes to the Father except by Him. The lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Christs blood, a more perfect and holy sacrifice was required to remove sin and set us free as opposed to a lesser offering that just covers the sin but does not set one free from being a slave to sin and everyone who sins is a slave to sin and does not have a permanent place in a family, but son belongs forever.

We have been bought for God by His blood and made free. Our sins are forgiven through Him.

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.