John MacArthur - Jesus Did Not Have to Shed His Blood to Save Us!

[JLB]

Yet you cannot even refute what the Pastor says.

This is great stuff.

Grace and peace to you.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Do you believe a brother in Christ who hates his brother still has eternal life remaining in him?

 

[electedbyHim]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Do you believe a brother in Christ who hates his brother still has eternal life remaining in him?

What does this have to do with the conversation?

Also who is hating?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Some imprecision on my part—and indeed on Paul’s in Rm.5:9. Mine, as Paul’s, was the context of blood shed unto death, life laid down (Rm.5:10), ie blood = death, precisely because it means life in a living creature (ie blood = life). Words mean according to context. Context is king and words multifunctional. What literalist would claim that Paul avoided chatting with blood, even though that’s what he claimed (Gal.1:16)? It’s surely clear that he used there two biological elements (viz flesh & blood) to mean human beings, and indeed, fellow Christians in leadership. Likewise we can agree with Paul that a Shylockian pound of flesh can never be justified, only Paul actually used metonymy to mean human being (Rm.3:20).
Scripture is replete with symbolism and metaphor, and the blood of dead animals daubed on doorposts could symbolise the animals’ deaths. I think that MacArthur scotched the idea that Jesus’ literal blood had, in short, been scooped up and deposited (alive?) in heaven—a highly pictorial idea, as is the idea of ultimate heaven being a literal place with physical temple & palace.

I hope you don’t deny that Jesus’ death was human death, though I guess we’d agree that it was voluntary and for global, if not universal, atonement with God. Scripture affirms the real humanity (life/death/resurrection) of Jesus and his one-of-a-kind filiality.

I hope you can see what I’m saying.

I see what you're saying perfectly. I was indoctrinated with reformed theology.
I don't deny "Jesus' human death." His human death is exactly what Paul means. What death means in human terms, not the way God sees life and death.
Understand what Jesus voluntarily put to death, then re-read the text.

Some would dare to give up their lives for a person they considered good, but not for a sinner? What??? Aren't we all sinners?

 

[Tenchi]

This is a blatant HERESY, and is AGAINST what the Bible VERY CLEARLY Teaches!

"How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God" - Hebrews 9:14

"Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" - Hebrews 9:22

"In him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace" - Ephesians 1:7

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ" - Ephesians 2:13

"And through Him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross" - Colossians 1:20

"And from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His blood" - Revelation 1:5

There can be NO DOUBT, that the ACTUAL Blood that Jesus Christ Shed on the Cross, ALONE cleanses us from our sins!

There is NO justification from the Bible with what MacArthur, argues, that it is only the Death of Jesus Christ that saves sinners!

He is ADDING to what the Bible Teaches! and is FALSE!

Hmmm... I'm no fan of John MacArthur, but I think he is correct in pointing out that if the blood of Christ shed for us was sufficient to atone for our sins, Jesus did not have to die. If Jesus's blood was the crucial thing in his Atonement for sin, could he not have simply opened a vein and poured out his blood for a while, entirely skipping the cross and its awful cruelty and pain? It seems to me that this is exactly what could be put forward if one wants to hold that Jesus's blood ALONE, being let out of his body, is sufficient to satisfy God's holy justice. Isaiah seemed to think more was required:

Isaiah 53:5
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

Isaiah 53:11-12
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

As one can see in Isaiah's prophetic words, it's not difficult to make a case from Scripture for MacArthur's view that the "shedding of blood" is just another way of saying "death." Isaiah wrote of Christ not merely shedding his blood, but of being pierced, crushed, chastened and scourged for our transgressions and iniquities and by suffering these things obtaining our spiritual "well-being" and "healing." Isaiah wrote also of God seeing the anguish of Christ's soul, not merely his blood being shed, and of God being "satisfied" by that anguish. It is because Christ "poured himself out" unto the point of death, Isaiah explained, that he is "allotted a portion with the great." What more obvious and natural way could "poured out" be understood than in regards to the blood - which is to say, the life - of Christ being poured out? The life is in the blood, after all, Scripture says (Leviticus 17:11, 14) and so, for Christ to pour out his blood is to pour out his life.

Hebrews 9:26-27
26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

 

[JLB]

What does this have to do with the conversation?

Also who is hating?

What does this have to do with the conversation?

It has everything to do with the conversation.

Also who is hating?

Anyone who is not keeping His commandments.




JLB

 

[electedbyHim]

It has everything to do with the conversation.



Anyone who is not keeping His commandments.




JLB

Expalin the hate and commandment breaking.

 

[JLB]

Expalin the hate and commandment breaking.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3

His commandments are about love; Loving God and loving your neighbor.

• If you commit adultery with your neighbor's wife, is that loving or hating your neighbor?
• If you make a carved image and bow down to it and worship it, is that loving or hating God?

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?
Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

 

[electedbyHim]

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3

His commandments are about love; Loving God and loving your neighbor.

• If you commit adultery with your neighbor's wife, is that loving or hating your neighbor?
• If you make a carved image and bow down to it and worship it, is that loving or hating God?

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?
Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

What does this have to do with John Macarthur or the OP?

Or even my comments.

Who is not keeping His commandments?

 

[JLB]

What does this have to do with John Macarthur or the OP?

Or even my comments.

Who is not keeping His commandments?

Again, it has everything to do with the OP, and everything John Macarthur or any so called "Reformed Theology" that ignores the teachings of Jesus Christ in favor of the doctrine of man.


Anyone who doesn't keep His commandments.


Do you believe those who don't keep His commandments have eternal life ?

Do you understand what the phrase "I know Him" is referring to?



JLB

 

[Free]

Again, it has everything to do with the OP, and everything John Macarthur or any so called "Reformed Theology" that ignores the teachings of Jesus Christ in favor of the doctrine of man.

By which you mean any teaching "that ignores your particular understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ in favor of the doctrines of man."

Anyone who doesn't keep His commandments.


Do you believe those who don't keep His commandments have eternal life ?

Do you understand what the phrase "I know Him" is referring to?

If you are trying to make a point, make it plain and clear instead of what seems to be implying something and then purposely avoiding being direct when asked for clarification. So far, I too don't see how your posts have anything to do with the OP. Please keep it on topic.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Please, please read a little more carefully. I said that [generally speaking, blood representing life, was the tangible element of the sacrifice ritual and showed the high price of sin].

I already agreed with you on this. I said partaking of the bread and wine is sharing in the suffrings of Christ.

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10 KJV

if you suufer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. [/b]1Pet.2:20-21 NIV
Now watch this bro,

1) He suffered as The Righteous Man.....in His Fathers' eyes.
2) He suffered as a sinner in the eyey of ungodly pule filled sinners.

Both are true. The scriptures describe Him as both, but only one is really true. Now interpret the Bible that way.

That’s a clear teaching of Leviticus, namely man’s guilt. For you to then deny my point, because Jesus was innocent, is a non sequitur.

No it is not because when Paul quoted the law, he never meant to imply that our Father (my quote)..."saw His only begotten Son as a sinner in place of sinner. Completely contrary in fact. God saw the exoress Image of Himself, all His patience, mercy, forgivness. Life, not death.

It’s a bit like me saying that the guy staggering out of the pub is drunk, and you saying, “No, my mother never gets drunk”. It’s a category error.

Oh it's category error alright. Unrepentant sinners will wish they put Jesus in the God category instead of the sinner category when they face Him in judgment.

The whole point of the atonement—in the PSA picture—was that man’s sin demanded the high price of sin, which one man without sin paid for to end man’s death/severance from God.

No it isn't. The point is if that One Man didn't put up our filth we'd all be dead. Here is an all star example of misunderstanding scrioture. Watch,

.....Caiaphas.....spoke up.....it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” He did not say this on his own.....he prophesied that Jesus would die for for the Jewish nation....So from that day on they plotted to take his life.hiLk.11:49-53 NIV

Caiaphas prophesied exactly as Baalam (a false proohet.) Baalam couldn't curse Isralel, si he led them into sin. Caiaphas couldn't curse Jesus, so he led them into sin... by portraying Jesus a sinner and having Him executed by false testimony,

do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. You must purge the evil from among you. Deu.19:19 NIV

It wasn't necessary for Jesus to die.....because the Romans would take over.
It was necessary.....because if Jesus (God) went by the law against them they would be
dead. So would we.

He wasn't being punished by God in place of us or we would die.
He was being punished by man in place of His Father or we would die.
God looking at what God is doing.
Man looking at what God is doing.
See the difference?

Yes, I am well aware, thank you, that in that specific (not general) case, it “showed the high price of being accuse (sic) falsely of sin”; that none could prove (no longer what the medieval KJV's ‘convince’ means) Yeshua guilty of sin (Jhn.8:46).

Yes. Now we see the length He went to, having the skin torn from His back with a flagrum...instead of judging sinners. Now we know what "by His strips we are healed" means.

PS: if you typed postings in a word processor you’d improve your spelling (eg testifued/wiuld x2).

I have arthritus and very little tech knowledge. Wouldn't know hiw to do it, but thanks .

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Because you jump from one topic to the next.

We were discussing...
Isaiah 53:10 nasb But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

And everything went amiss.

Here is the real issue.

We are both way off topic.

I encourage you to open a thread and we can discuss the issue and stay on topic.

Grace and peace to you.

Ok. Look at post #91 because it's about that.

 

[Vinny37]

I see what you're saying perfectly. I was indoctrinated with reformed theology.
I don't deny "Jesus' human death." His human death is exactly what Paul means. What death means in human terms, not the way God sees life and death.
Understand what Jesus voluntarily put to death, then re-read the text.

Some would dare to give up their lives for a person they considered good, but not for a sinner? What??? Aren't we all sinners?

[I see what you’re saying perfectly.] If you do see, great.

[Understand what Jesus voluntarily put to death, then re-read the text.] I don’t see what this is saying.

On Rm.5:7, this might help: “Paul’s general argument is clear enough: ‘even for one who is just or good you will scarcely find anyone willing to lay down their life—well, perhaps a few people might go so far as to do so—but God’s love is seen in Christ’s laying down his life for those who were neither just nor good, but ungodly sinners” (F F Bruce’s Romans (TNTC), 1963:124). The term sinner has a spectrum of meaning. I am not evangelistically a sinner to God (ie non-messianic family), but as a saint (messianic family) I am pastorally a sinner to God, and in life can still be a sinner to fellow human beings, even to mere animals. The term righteous also has a spectrum of meaning. Socially even non-Christians can be righteous (Mt.6:1; 23:35), and spiritually it can be relative (Mt.5:20). Its root meaning is just/ethically fair, though can signify right relationship.

BTW I worship in a Reformed church, but I do not worship Reformationism, a mixed bag of doctrine.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

[I see what you’re saying perfectly.] If you do see, great.

[Understand what Jesus voluntarily put to death, then re-read the text.] I don’t see what this is saying.

I'm saying Jesus put the "old man of sin to death" as an example to follow. Jesus Himself had no old man. We need to kill our own old man.

On Rm.5:7, this might help: “Paul’s general argument is clear enough: ‘even for one who is just or good you will scarcely find anyone willing to lay down their life—well, perhaps a few people might go so far as to do so—but God’s love is seen in Christ’s laying down his life for those who were neither just nor good, but ungodly sinners” (F F Bruce’s Romans (TNTC),

I hear people say Jesus only died for some sinners. I believe such false doctrines have led millions to damnation.

I am not evangelistically a sinner to God (ie non-messianic family),

I don't understand what you mean by this.

The term righteous also has a spectrum of meaning. Socially even non-Christians can be righteous (Mt.6:1; 23:35), and spiritually it can be relative (Mt.5:20). Its root meaning is just/ethically fair, though can signify right relationship.

I argued once with an atheist who said no just God would allow substitutionay (penal) sacrifice. The atheist was right.

BTW I worship in a Reformed church, but I do not worship Reformationism, a mixed bag of doctrine.

I can't sit under false teaching.

 

[Free]

I'm saying Jesus put the "old man of sin to death" as an example to follow. Jesus Himself had no old man.

No, not merely as an example. To make Christ’s death only as can example makes light of his substitutionary atonement and completely undermines the gospel.

“Everything that was achieved through the death of Jesus on the cross had its origin in the mind and heart of the eternal God.”

“But the death of Jesus is more than an inspiring example. If this were all there is to it, much of what we find in the Gospels would make no sense. There are those strange sayings, for instance, in which Jesus said he would “give his life as a ransom for many” and shed his blood—“blood of the covenant,” he called it—“for the forgiveness of sins.” There is no redemption in an example. A pattern cannot secure our pardon.”

“Besides, why was he weighed down with such heavy and anxious apprehension as the cross approached? How shall we explain the dreadful agony in the garden, his tears and cries and bloody sweat? “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” Again, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.” Was the “cup” that he hesitated to drink from the symbol of death by crucifixion? Was he then afraid of pain and death? If so, his example may have been one of submission and patience, but it was hardly one of courage. Plato tells us that Socrates drank his cup of hemlock in the prison cell in Athens “quite readily and cheerfully.” Was Socrates braver than Jesus? Or is it that their cups contained different poisons? And what is the meaning of the darkness, and the cry of abandonment, and the tearing from top to bottom of the Temple curtain in front of the Holy of Holies? There is no way of understanding these things if Jesus died only as an example. Indeed some of them would seem to make his example less commendable.
Not only would much in the Gospels remain mysterious if Christ’s death were purely an example, but our human need would remain unsatisfied. We need more than an example; we need a Savior.”

“Our sins sent Christ to hell. He tasted the agony of a soul alienated from God. Bearing our sins, he died our death. He endured instead of us the penalty of separation from God that our sins deserved.”

(All from Basic Christianity by John Stott.)

I argued once with an atheist who said no just God would allow substitutionay (penal) sacrifice. The atheist was right.

Taking your doctrinal beliefs from an atheist is not a good idea. God is just amd loving, which is penal substitutionary atonement, as Scripture clearly states.

Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
…
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. (ESV)

2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (ESV)

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. (ESV)

1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,
1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. (ESV)

1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (ESV)

I can't sit under false teaching.

Yet you seem to be willing to take teaching on Scripture from an atheist.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yet you seem to be willing to take teaching on Scripture from an atheist.

I wasn't willing. I held to baptust doctrine for decades. Then II decided to really dive into Bible study because I wantex to find one point to orove hom wrong. This is what I found,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10 KJV

Paul was conformed to Christs' sufferings by Paul own sufferings

if you suufer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. [/b]1Pet.2:20-21 NIV
Now watch this bro,

1) He suffered as The Righteous Man.....in His Fathers' eyes.
2) He suffered as a sinner in the eyey of ungodly pule filled sinners.

Both are true. The scriptures describe Him as both, but only one is really true. Now interpret the Bible that way.
eld to reformed dictrines for decadesdecades. His ooint was, "No loving Father would punish His son for something he didn't do ."

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10 KJV

if you suufer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. [/b]1Pet.2:20-21 NIV
Now watch this bro,

1) He suffered as The Righteous Man.....in His Fathers' eyes.
2) He suffered as a sinner in the eyey of ungodly pule filled sinners.

Both are true. The scriptures describe Him as both, but only one is really true. Now interpret the Bible that way, because the that atheist on that one point was right.

Free all you're doing is throwing up a contrary opinion. You don't seem to ever want to actually look at whst I'm saying and ask yourself if ut makes sense.

Did Jesus suffer as a righteous man? Yes.
Was Jesus viiewed a a blasphemer? Yes

My comments explain Psa.53 the right way. If you disagree with my reasoning, then cite the comment the way I intetpreted it and tell me what I said can't be right.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Free,
Do you see where Caiaphas was "prophesying" by a lying spirit who told a half truth..."If we don't get rid of Jesus, the Romans ( the enemy of Gods' people) will destroy us!
That's a lie because the Messiah came to destroy the enemy of all mankind which is death and He already did that whether anyone believes it ir not.

The Sanhedrin spoke in place of God. The religious leaders (interpreted, spoke in place of God.) "This is what the Lord says...", should give light, but they were in darkness.
Please think about symbols, metaphors in the book of Rev when reading the entire Bible because you really will begin finding things you thought you knew so well you would stake your life you were right. I'm finding the opposite is actually the truth.

I'm going to begin a thread on Rev. The format will be verse by verse with corresponding things our Lord and the Apostles taught, which will show how iur Lord fulfilled all of the OT the 1st He came because He already defeated the last enemy.

It doesn't matter if we don't "actually" have new bodies because we live by faith. we live by faith.

Unsaved people are not really alive. It only seems that way.

 

[Free]

I wasn't willing. I held to baptust doctrine for decades. Then II decided to really dive into Bible study because I wantex to find one point to orove hom wrong. This is what I found,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10 KJV

Paul was conformed to Christs' sufferings by Paul own sufferings

if you suufer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. [/b]1Pet.2:20-21 NIV
Now watch this bro,

1) He suffered as The Righteous Man.....in His Fathers' eyes.
2) He suffered as a sinner in the eyey of ungodly pule filled sinners.

Both are true. The scriptures describe Him as both, but only one is really true. Now interpret the Bible that way.

There are numerous verses you have yet to address and I just can't see how your position is even able to make sense of them:

Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. (ESV)

Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
…
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. (ESV)

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
…
2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (ESV)

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (ESV)

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree” (ESV)

Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, (ESV)

Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. (ESV)

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. (ESV)

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (ESV)

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (ESV)

Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp.
Heb 13:12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.
Heb 13:13 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. (ESV)

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, (ESV)

1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (ESV)

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood (ESV)

That is obviously just the NT. Clearly the sacrificial system in the OT points to Christ's death.

“To focus on Jesus as just an example is to reduce him from sovereign Savior to ethical coach and to transform the gospel into law. That Jesus can't help you.”—Timothy Keller

eld to reformed dictrines for decadesdecades.

What are you saying here?

His ooint was, "No loving Father would punish His son for something he didn't do ."

Again, getting one's doctrine from an atheist is really not the best way to come to an understanding of Scripture.

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10 KJV

Free all you're doing is throwing up a contrary opinion. You don't seem to ever want to actually look at whst I'm saying and ask yourself if ut makes sense.

I offer a contrary opinion precisely because I look at what you're saying and it doesn't make sense of the totality of the biblical evidence. Penal substitutionary atonement is at the core of Jesus's death and resurrection, regardless of whatever else may be added to his work. You seem to continually overlook or ignore a plethora of passages which prove this is the case. Your position actually denies the gospel, which you don't seem to understand, and that is very concerning.

What is the main predicament of humans and what got us there?

Did Jesus suffer as a righteous man? Yes.
Was Jesus viiewed a a blasphemer? Yes

My comments explain Psa.53 the right way. If you disagree with my reasoning, then cite the comment the way I intetpreted it and tell me what I said can't be right.

Psa 53? Do you mean Isa 53? You haven't made any comments on either of those passages, so I'm not sure what you're asking.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is a blatant HERESY, and is AGAINST what the Bible VERY CLEARLY Teaches!

"How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God" - Hebrews 9:14

"Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" - Hebrews 9:22

"In him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace" - Ephesians 1:7

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ" - Ephesians 2:13

"And through Him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross" - Colossians 1:20

"And from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His blood" - Revelation 1:5

There can be NO DOUBT, that the ACTUAL Blood that Jesus Christ Shed on the Cross, ALONE cleanses us from our sins!

There is NO justification from the Bible with what MacArthur, argues, that it is only the Death of Jesus Christ that saves sinners!

He is ADDING to what the Bible Teaches! and is FALSE!

Actually, your statement is heretical:

There can be NO DOUBT, that the ACTUAL Blood that Jesus Christ Shed on the Cross, ALONE cleanses us from our sins!

Synecdoche is a figure of speech in which a part of something represents the whole. It is the entire sacrifice of the Lamb, including its blood that cleanses us from our sins.

You are doing precisely what John MacArthur warned against, extracting one element of Christ's Death (His bleeding) and claiming it ALONE saves. If blood "ALONE" were sufficient, you could drain some blood without killing the Lamb.

John affirmed Orthodoxy that Christ's Death saves us from sin and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Your claim of heresy notwithstanding.

Now i agree John (a critical thinker, who is precise in his thinking) got himself in needless controversy. I would never say "His bleeding" wasn't necessary because that is essential to this specific sacrifice for sin in scripture, as the writer of Hebrews points out.

From John's explanation he is objecting to making Christ's blood "a charm, magic", turning Christ's blood into an idol.

But he could have focused on that aspect without reference to "His bleeding" in abstract. Uncritical thinkers, people who just go with their assumptions, would charge him with heresy. As they probably do many others without actually knowing what was being said. Their "gut feeling" informs them what is true, facts don't matter.

If John wanted my opinion, I would suggest he retract the statement as the "hypothetical" doesn't exist, and will never exist. Sacrificial lambs bleed, no one cares about hypothetically, God could have had Christ die a different Death for sin as He is God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

There are numerous verses you have yet to address and I just can't see how your position is even able to make sense of them:

That's what you said awhile back when I explained the Chapter you want to go over again. See? You won't respond to the my questions because you can't.
I explain the passages you cite, then you ignore what I say and just go on with another passage that makes no sense with all of the scriptures as a whole. Your beliefs are contrary. So I'll answer one more from you.

Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace

Isaiah is speaking of the chastizement Jesus submitted Himself to which all of Gods' sons must experience and endure or they are bastards. Heb.12

he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things whichhe suffered; Heb.5:8

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Heb.12:6

God teaches all His children to show every sinner love. Even His enemies.

Is it true Jesus suffered as The Righteous Man.....in His Fathers' eyes.
Is it true Jesus was unjustly called a sinner and treated as one, even thiugh it wasn't true?

If you refuse then I think it best not to try to reason any further. You may have forgotten how I told you why I no longer talk to @brightflame. You're just doing the same thing