NewLifeInChrist
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In post 41 I was relaying what some people I know believe, not what I believe.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
JOHN MACARTHUR
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NewLifeInChrist
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So, you are just objecting to using the word "lost" to describe people who are not saved? And you want everyone to use it only in reference to saved people who have lost their salvation? What, then, would "lost" mean if saved people can't lose their salvation? What would be your preferred adjective for people who are not saved and never were saved?
- May 17, 2011
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Hello NewLifeInChrist et JLB, the word "lost" would make for an interesting short, word study, I think
I can't stay to comment at length right now, but I will add the following in hopes of encouraging further discussion of this topic with you both later (as well finally catching back up with the rest of the thread).John Newton, wretched slave trader and unbeliever turned abolitionist and preacher who, alongside of William Wilberforce, helped to end slavery in Great Britian, spoke of being lost and then found by God in his famous hymn, Amazing Grace. (Newton was born 300 years ago this July 24th, just FYI).
John Newton | Biography, Conversion, Hymns, Abolition, & Facts | Britannica
John Newton, English slave trader who became an Anglican minister, a hymn writer, and later a noted abolitionist, best known for his hymn ‘Amazing Grace.’ His transformation from a faithless seaman to a man of deep faith is echoed in his work.
www.britannica.com
God bless you!!
--David
- Jul 13, 2012
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- Jul 13, 2012
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Hello @NewLifeInChrist et @JLB, the word "lost" would make for an interesting short, word study, I think
If anyone wants to start a thread on in I will be glad to participate.
NewLifeInChrist
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There are 34 occurances of the word "lost" in the NKJV Bible. A small minority of them are in reference people who are lost to God. Only two verses specifically limit the scope of lost people to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". One verse (or two depending on your view of Matthew 18:11) is wholely unqualified...
"for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Lk 19:10).
In the broadest sense, all humanity became lost to God when Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. Sin, judgement, condemnation, and death came by the one man Adam, but grace, justification, righteosness, and life came by the one man Jesus Christ (Ro 5:12-19). It is wholely appropriate for us to adopt the broadest sense of the word "lost" when describing people who are lost to God.
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GodsGrace
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Lost can mean that you've lost something,,,
which is how You are using it.
I believe that Christians also use that term in the way that
NewLifeInChrist is using it.
I think you're both right !
Lost can also mean that a person is unable to find their way to something,,,or out of something.
They are lost and do not know where they are, or are unable to understand their situation...
their "lostness".
I'd say that a person that is NOT saved...is lost.
IOW,,,they're in the same situation that one that has forfeited their salvation is also in.
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Agreed. Case in point:
Mat 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (ESV)
Were these sheep his to begin with? No. Ethnically speaking, they belonged to the people of God, but they were lost--they were never really his. So, here, "lost" clearly means unsaved.
Luk 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” (ESV)
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I’m just using the lost the way it’s used in the the teachings of Christ, specifically the parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son.
I think it’s wise to build a solid foundation of understanding when we study scripture and especially the doctrine of Christ.
If we misunderstand or change, the meaning of a biblical word, then we will misunderstand the doctrine.
“Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? Luke 14:34
The salt once possessed flavor the it lost its flavor.
And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ Luke 15:6
The sheep once belonged to the shepherd then became lost.
“Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’
The coin that belonged to the woman was lost.
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found. Luke 15:32
The was certainly the son of his father but Jesus said he became lost.
Also Jesus teaches us he became dead. Obviously he wasn’t physically dead, but became spiritually dead.
When a person wanders away from the Lord he becomes lost; spiritually dead, as well as no longer just.
When the “sheep” is found and returns and are reconciled back to God, they are no longer “unjust” but return and are made justified once again.
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7
Notice that the Lord calls the sheep who became lost, a sinner who is lost and in need of repentance in order to be justified, just as an unbeliever who has never been saved is called a sinner who must repent in order to be saved and justified.
I think once you study what the Lord is saying in these passages it shows why people must “change” the meanings of words to change the meaning of doctrine.
GodsGrace
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Good morning....
I certainly know what you were doing.
A few years ago you had started a thread listing biblical words and their definition.
I myself have often stated that I wish we had a Christian Dictionary.
It becomes a problem discussing anything with someone when a term is being used....
each party may not be using the same difinition for the word....and this makes the conversation
almost impossible.
It did seem to me that you each were using a different definiton....
and you were BOTH right.
Here's a question for you however...
How would you define a person that has NEVER known God?
Wouldn't it be correct to say that he's lost?
An atheist is lost.
A person that was once saved but has become apostate is also lost.
I can't think of any other term so I accept that lost can mean either case.
- Jul 13, 2012
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I don’t think it’s incorrect to say a person who has never known God is lost.
I would like for people to understand the way Jesus uses the word, an understand the meaning of the word the way Jesus and His disciples mean the word, so we can have unity I understanding.
That way unbiblical doctrines such as OSAS would never be an issue that divides us.
IOW’s someone who was never saved and someone who was once saved, then wandered away from Christ because of sin and became lost are in the same spiritual condition;
lost, spiritually dead, a sinner who is in need of repentance, unjust.
Just exactly like someone who was never saved.
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
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A huge dividing factor.
It’s Heresy.
Please look up the meaning of the word Heresies.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
It means sect. It divides.
Think of the word section, or division.
Heresy literally means to conquer a city.
Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
Matthew 12:25
It divides the body of Christ into denominations, which we have today.
A heresy is a doctrine of demons that is designed to divide the Church into sections.
Notice that those who promote heresies will not inherit the kingdom of God.
John says it this way -
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9
Johann!@#
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I believe this might be helpful--it could shed a great deal of light on one of those obscure and paradoxical verses.
NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: JAMES 5:19-20
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
5:19 "my brethren" See notes at James 1:2 and 1:9.
one believer strays
another believer is willing to help
"strays from the truth" The straying has both doctrinal and moral aspects (cf. Heb. 5:2; 2 Pet. 2:2). The term "strays" comes from a Greek word from which we get the English "planet." As the ancients watched and mapped the night sky, they saw that certain "stars" did not follow a regular orbit. We know these today as our solar system's planets. They called them "the wanderers."
The grammatical form of the VERB is AORIST PASSIVE SUBJUNCTIVE. The AORIST speaks of wandering. The PASSIVE VOICE is used to assert that the subject is being acted upon. Most translations translate it as a MIDDLE or ACTIVE (NASB, NKJV, NRSV, TEV, NJB, and NIV). The PASSIVE idea is found in The Twentieth Century New T estament and the translation by Henry Alford. The PASSIVE VOICE was replacing the MIDDLE VOICE in Koine Greek (cf. A. T. Robertson's Studies in the Epistle of James p. 196 (footnote #6). This may explain James 4:7 and 10 as well.
Believers wander
by willfulness
by the trickery of false teachers (cf. Eph. 4:14)
under the influence of the demonic (cf. Eph. 4:14)
The exact cause is not the issue, but the need for confession, repentance, prayer, and the help of other believers.
For "truth" see SPECIAL TOPIC: "TRUTH" IN PAUL'S WRITINGS and SPECIAL TOPIC: "TRUE" (the concept) IN JOHN'S WRITINGS.
"one turns him back" Believers have a responsibility to help one another (cf. 2 Cor. 2:7; Gal. 6:1; Eph. 4:32; 2 Thess. 3:15).
5:20
NASB, NKJV, Peshitta "let him know"
NRSV "you should know"
TEV "remember this"
NJB "he may be sure"
This is a PRESENT ACTIVE IMPERATIVE. It is an idiom for confidence in the following statement.
"turns" It is significant that the Greek word epistrephō is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew term for "repentance" (shuv). Since Israel was considered the people of God, this "turning" was viewed as "turning back" to God or the renewing of a previous relationship. That same sense is reflected in this text in James.
SPECIAL TOPIC: REPENTANCE (OT)
SPECIAL TOPIC: REPENTANCE (NT)
"he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death." In context this refers to
the supposed connection between sin and sickness in James 5:15
the message of the whole book about warnings related to covenant responsibilities.
Our systematic theology tends to interpret passages like this (i.e., James 5:19-20) in "acceptable" ways. The fact remains this is a shocking warning written to Christians. Sin causes death, physical death, spiritual death, eternal death. Unconfessed sin is a powerful and beguiling enemy. Flee from it. Confess it!
There is an interesting and insightful footnote in Hard Sayings of the Bible, published by IVP:
"Neither James nor the rest of the New Testament is concerned to answer the speculative question >>>>>'How could a Christian who had eternal life lose it?'<<<<<
All of the theological answers given are based on various theological assumptions and either deny the meaning of the various texts (such as 'The Christian does not really die eternally, but simply loses his or her reward') or explain the texts according to their theological beliefs (such as the Calvinist 'They appeared to be Christian, but their lack of perseverance shows that they were not really regenerate,'----- or the Arminian 'Yes, people can fall away from the faith and be lost').
James, like all New Testament writers, is not interested in theological neatness, but in pastoral concern.
He simply sees the situation (a Christian on the wrong way), recognizes the danger (death) and goes to the rescue, rather than ask how it fits into his theology. So while theological responses are appropriate in their place, we ought not to expect a New Testament writer to select among them" (p. 708).
Barnes--
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth - Either doctrinally and speculatively, by embracing error; or practically, by falling into sinful practices. Either of these may be called “erring from the truth,” because they are contrary to what the truth teaches and requires. What is here said does not appear to have any connection with what precedes, but the apostle seems to have supposed that such a case might occur; and, in the conclusion of the Epistle, he called their attention to the importance of endeavoring to save an erring brother, if such an instance should happen. The exhortation would be proper in addressing a letter to any church, or in publicly addressing any congregation.
And one convert him - This does not mean “convert him as a sinner, or regenerate him,” but turn him from the error of his way; bring him back from his wanderings; re-establish him in the truth, and in the practice of virtue and religion.
So far as the word used here is concerned, ἐπιστρέψῃ epistrepsē he who had erred from the truth, and who was to be converted, may have been a true Christian before. The word means simply to turn, sc., from his way of error. See the notes at Luk_22:32.
Jas 5:19 My μου, brothers, Ἀδελφοί if ἐάν anyone τις among ἐν you ὑμῖν might wander πλανηθῇ from ἀπὸ the τῆς truth, ἀληθείας and καὶ someone τις should bring him back ἐπιστρέψῃ . . . , αὐτόν,
Jas 5:20 let him know γινωσκέτω* that ὅτι the [one] ὁ having brought back ἐπιστρέψας a sinner ἁμαρτωλὸν from ἐκ [the] error πλάνης of his αὐτοῦ way ὁδοῦ will save σώσει his αὐτοῦ soul ψυχὴν from ἐκ death, θανάτου and καὶ will cover over καλύψει a multitude πλῆθος of sins. ἁμαρτιῶν.
Shalom.
J.
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