Judgment seat of Christ: Wheat and tares

[Fish153]

If a believer rejects the Lord judging their works at His seat, then it is understandable for them to only believe in the last GWT judgment of other peoples' works, never their own. It's a false hope, but understandable.

Only believing the truth, is not a nonjudgment-condemnation-free card of faith alone.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

True. After being rejected by their works at His judgment seat, they will then be condemned with the rest of the wicked dead at the GWT.


True. There will only be rejection by bad works, and appointment with the hypocrites on the earth.



True. The judgment seat of Christ will first be at His return to earth.


True. Along with the believers after the first resurrection of the saints, that will be found in His book of life.

During His millennial rule on earth, the harvest ofed souls saved and justifi by the Lord and King Jesus, will be greater in one thousand years than however many enter into His kingdom for thousands of years before.


True. As judged by their bad works.


They are judged guilty with the unbelievers that do the same bad things.

Belief in the Bible is judged by obedience, or unbelief judged by disobedience.

The good believers obey the Lord, and the bad believers disobey Him. The wheat believe the Lord for the good, and the tares believe the Lord for the bad.

The wheat and tares, the live and dead limbs, and the faithful and unfaithful servants, will be separated at His judgment seat by their works.




Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matth 24:48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

At the judgment seat, He will say to His bad people, depart from me. At the GWT He casts all workers of iniquity into the LOF.


True. The first judgment of works good or bad, is at His judgment seat with His people.

The last judgment by works is at the GWT.


Knowing the terror of the Lord's judgment upon all bad works, without respect of persons, we believers are warned to make our works good, and not bad.

Mat 12:33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.



Judgment of ministerial service for reward, is by exhortation to study and show ourselves aproved, not by terror against evil deeds.


Not them that live holy and do good in all things with the Lord.

Them that live not holy and do bad, will first be appointed their part with the hypocrites, and if they repent not, they will finally be judged with all hypocrites at the GWT.


True. He tries our hearts for obedience in all things, that we may live righteously with Him, and not be condemned with them doing unrighteousness.

Judgment of works without respect of persons, excludes being justified by having faith alone.

Faith is made void by disobedient transgressions of the the Lord's law.


Only the bad ones doing bad things.

Who does not seek judgment of their works, except them that do unrighteousness?

The problem with not being justified by our works, is not being justified by our works. If we ourselves judge our own works bad and unjustified, then how much more the righteous Lord, that judges the heart and the deeds of all men, beginning with His people first, and also the world.

2 Peter{4:17} For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? {4:18} And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.]]

The judgment of works begins with the house of God from His judgment seat at the Lord's return, and finishes with the rest of the dead men and women created by God, from His GWT.
Rom 3:5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

If the Lord acquits the unrighteousnesses of His people with commendation, then how can he possibly judge the world's doers of unrighteousness with condemnation?

God forbid.

Gen 18:25 Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

My problem with your assertions is that you seem to teach that actual "believers" will be thrown into the "lake of fire" for having performed "bad works" while they were Christians. But I state again---the Lord chastises us on earth (if we truly are real born-again believers) so that we will not be "condemned with the world". Don't you remember the fornicator in Corinthians? "1 Corinthians 5:5 reads, “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". This man was a believer who had fallen deeply into sin. Paul is stating that such a one will not be LOST---but that he will be severely chastened for not repenting. Why? "So the Spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". We do see that later this man DID repent after being excommunicated from the church.

A true born-again believer is a CHILD OF GOD. God is NOT going to throw one of His own children into the Lake of Fire for disobedience. No---as 1 Corinthians states---his works will burn up but he will be "saved as though by fire".
What you are stating dishonors the Lord. The Lord will not treat any of his children the way that unbelievers will be treated at the end of time. As I stated before---an APOSTATE is an unbeliever---he is not one of GOD'S CHILDREN. So, he will be judged at the GREAT WHITE THRONE as an unbeliever by his works, and condemned for having not believed in the Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation.

Apostates will not be at the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. That judgment is for born-again, regenerated believers. They will be rewarded for the works they have done in the body. Where you are making your mistake is that you are thinking that there is a "punitive" nature to the first Judgment. And there is NOT. All anger is gone towards believers---Jesus has paid for their sins on the cross. This judgment is not PUNITIVE----it is a judgment of rewards. Surely----many will be sorrowful as they "suffer loss" as they see that they will not receive crowns. They will see time wasted, etc. and mourn for not having done what was expected of them. But they are not going to be thrown into the Lake of Fire---or be expelled into darkness for unfaithfulness. They are CHILDREN OF GOD. There is a BIG difference between an unbeliever and a CHILD OF GOD. So, once again, I appreciate your viewpoint----but I do believe from reading Scripture that you are incorrect. I once went to a very legalistic church whose Pastor thought he was being faithful by constantly scaring believers with tales of being thrown into "outer darkness". etc., and declaring that you must be faithful or God will shut the door on you.

This actually led to many believers being in constant fear and lack of assurance. What he was doing was detrimental to the church. We are to "encourage one another as we see the day approaching", not scaring one another. Somehow we think that we can "scare" people into obedience. That is so wrong. True obedience to God is through love, and realizing how deeply he loves us. "Comfort ye, Comfort ye my people saith your God" should be the message that Pastor's are delivering. Sure---the message of repenting from sin needs to be taught. But think carefully of what Jesus said: "come to me all you that labor and are heavy-laden and I will give you rest." Most Christians long and yearn to hear messages of mercy and Grace from the throne of God--"Let us come boldly to the throne of Grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:16). They do not need to be beaten down with fear and dread that their works are not good enough and they may be cast away at the end!! Jesus told Peter "Feed my sheep". He didn't say "Scare my sheep into following me". We serve a blessed Lord. And best of all we ARE Children of God whom he loves dearly----even when we mess up. He is "ready to forgive and filled with mercy".

 

[Consecrated Life]

The division made between the believers on earth

Define "Believer" ?

 

[RBDERRICK]

My problem with your assertions is that you seem to teach that actual "believers"

I agree with my need to clarify.

'Actual' or 'true' believers is not used in Scriptures. Scripture speaks of justified and unjustified believers, and they are known by doing righteousness or unrighteousness, by doing good or not doing good.

All naming Christ as Lord are believers, but not all obey Him as Lord:

Mat 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 6:46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Therefore all are indeed believers, which cannot be denied, but the Lord makes difference between justified, righteous, good believers, and unjustified, unrighteous, bad believers.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Devils are also believers, which by Scripture cannot be denied, but they do not the will of the Lord and one true God they believe in.

The judgment of the Lord by the works of believers, is separate the righteoius believers doing good like Jesus Christ, from the unrighteous believers doing bad like devils.

At the judgment seat of Christ, the believers will be accepted or rejected by Him, through judgment of our good or bad works.

Those accepted of Him will be resurrected with life to meet Him in the air, and those rejected of Him will be appointed with the hypocrites and judged with the rest of the dead at the GWT.

Only bad believers doing unrighteousness unto the end, will be cast into the LOF.

will be thrown into the "lake of fire" for having performed "bad works" while they were Christians.

Once again, a clarification would be good.

We Christians are delivered from sinning to sin not. But if we do sin, we still have an advocate with the Father, and can be forgiven by confession of repentance.

But if we Christians are doing bad works unto death, then just as with all unrepented evil doers, there is no repentance in the grave.

And so, only the unrighteous believers dying in their sins and trespasses, are judged with the rest of the unbelieving dead, and cast into the LOF.

 

[RBDERRICK]

But I state again---the Lord chastises us on earth (if we truly are real born-again believers) so that we will not be "condemned with the world".

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And I state again, that the Lord chastises only His obedient sons, to teach them faithful obedience through all things in this life, even as the Son learned as a man of flesh and blood on earth.

2Sa 7:14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Believers that become bad by disobedience, are no longer chastized by the Lord for obedience, but are now chastened with all children of disobedience to repent.

Heb 12:8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Here, Paul is speaking to all believers. Believers that be without His chastisement, are bad believers that refuse it by disobedience.

By refusing the Lord's chastisement with love to faithfully obey Him, we bastardize His faith and sonship by rebellious disobedience.

Even as we are become obedient sons by repentance from dead works, we become children of disobedience by dead works.

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Even as children of disobedience can repent of unrighteousness unto salvation, so sons can repent of righteousness unto condemnation.

God only has obedient sons in His house and body, that He teaches to be obedient in all things, as His Son Jesus Christ. The righteous and only true God does not have disobedient children, that He vainly argues with to at least disobey less.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I agree with my need to clarify.

At the judgment seat of Christ, the believers will be accepted or rejected by Him, through judgment of our good or bad works.

Define bad works?
And also how many bad works will cause rejection ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Heb 12:8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Here, Paul is speaking to all believers. Believers that be without His chastisement, are bad believers that refuse it by disobedience.

By refusing the Lord's chastisement ....

Your understanding of Paul is lacking.
Paul's comment " without chastisement " means God has not chastised you, because you are not His child.
All of God's children being subject to God's chastisement.
If you are "without chastisement" that is a sure sign you are not His child.
You seem unaware of this very scripture being the source from which the old axiom:
" God does not whip the devil's children " came

 

[RBDERRICK]

Don't you remember the fornicator in Corinthians?

Yes. He was a bad example of a bad believer, that had no reconcilation and fellowship with the righteous Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor{6:14} Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

1Jo 1:6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

"1 Corinthians 5:5 reads, “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". This man was a believer who had fallen deeply into sin. Paul is stating that such a one will not be LOST-

The spirit of holiness is saved in the church of saints, by ostracizing the bad believers working with the world.

1Co 5:11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Mat 18:17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

They are judged by the Lord as heathen by their works, and His righteous church is commanded to do the same, in order for the Spirit of Christ not depart the whole church as Ichabod.

--but that he will be severely chastened for not repenting. Why? "So the Spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". We do see that later this man DID repent after being excommunicated from the church.

And because they obeyed the Lord's command, the Spirit of holiness was saved in the church, and did not depart their assembly.

And the angels in heaven rejoices that a bad believer repented from sins and trespasses, to become a a good believing and obedient son of God.

God is NOT going to throw one of His own children into the Lake of Fire for disobedience. No-

We believers are free to believe and disbelieve what we want.

1 Peter{1:14} As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

However, God and the Father will still go right ahead and judge us all just like the world, by our good or bad works in the end.

2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences

If a believer is indoctrinated into removing the fear of the Lord, and the warning terror of His judgment, so that they can take pleasure in being acquitted from their own sins and trespasses of the world without righteous judgment, then so be it unto death...

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

As I stated before---an APOSTATE is an unbeliever--

As I stated before, a believer doing unrighteousness is a bad believer judged with the unbelievers.

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
An apostate is a believer that knows the truth of the Lord, and has willfully turned away from doing His will, without any sorrow nor confession nor repentance. The Lord can then be tempted to give up on them to a reprobate mind.

Heb 6:5If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That especially includes them that change the true judgment of God by works, into a lie of justification by being a believer alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

-he is not one of GOD'S CHILDREN.

No child of disobedience is a son of God.

Apostates will not be at the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

They will not be resurrected into the air to meet with the Lord, but appointed with the hypocrites of the earth.

-Jesus has paid for their sins on the cross.

Jesus has paid for the sins of the whole world.

1Jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He forgives past sins repented for His sake. Propitiation is payment, not forgiveness.

Forgiveness is only by repentance, not by propitiation alone, nor by believing in His propitiation alone.

No sinner is saved by Jesus' death on the cross, but only by His resurrection from the dead. Even as no man is born again at the cross, but only by repentance from sins with His resurrection.

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I once went to a very legalistic church

I.e. doers of the law and word of Christ?

Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

whose Pastor thought he was being faithful by constantly scaring believers with tales of being thrown into "outer darkness". etc., and declaring that you must be faithful or God will shut the door on you.

I.e. knowing the terror of the Lord, we persaude all believers to be faithfully obedient to His law and word?

Knowing that the Father will judge every man's works with respect of persons, especially the believers that call on Him?

Knowing that first we believers ought to walk obediently in the fear of the Lord, knowing He will first judge His people before the world?

2 Peter{4:17} For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

and declaring that you must be faithful or God will shut the door on you.

Did you depart to find a church beleiving their Christ would never shut heaven's door on them, no matter how unfaithful?

This actually led to many believers being in constant fear

The fear of the Lord in all our manners with asssurance of faith, is for only for them that repent of all sins and trespasses for His sake.

Fearing the Lord's judgment and wrath against disobedience, is only for the unfaithful and disobedient believers.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

We see the Lord calls us to fear Him all our time in passing on earth, not just time to time.

Is learning to fear the Lord only from time to time, why some bad believers continue to sin from time to time against Him.

This actually led to many believers being in constant fear and lack of assurance.

There shouldn't be any assurance in the true Christ of God, while unfaithfully disobeying Him without fear.

What he was doing was detrimental to the church.

Not to the ones who want to hear a preacher of righteousness, preaching against unfaithful sinning by any believer naming the name of Christ.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Such preachers are only preaching what Jesus Christ first says Himself.

We are to "encourage one another as we see the day approaching",

I.e. just keeping believing in being saved, apart from our works, because we cannot be judged by them anyway?

not scaring one another.

Luk 16:31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

True obedience to God is through love, and realizing how deeply he loves us.

And how's that working out for you? Have you repented to cease sinning for your love of God, or only in part from time to time?

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

True love of God is obeying Him in deed and in truth, and not in lovely words by faith alone.

Rom 16:18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Sure---the message of repenting from sin needs to be taught.

Right. Sure.

The commandment to repent from all sinning needs to be commanded, esle we cannot be saved.

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

But think carefully of what Jesus said: "come to me all you that labor and are heavy-laden and I will give you rest."

Mark 2;17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Heb 4:10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

So long as we are laboring with our own works by unrepentance, we are not entered into His rest from our old works, which is only by repentance.

Most Christians long and yearn to hear messages of mercy and Grace from the throne of God--"

If we've repented to cease sinning, we have and know it daily.

If we've not repented, or only lukewarmly in part, then we can hear about only.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

If we want to hear we have mercy and grace, whether doing the word or not, then there are plenty around glad to preach it to us.

-even when we mess up. He is "ready to forgive and filled with mercy".

Mess up. Cute word for rebellion. How about oopsies for sins and trespasses?

Such is the vocabulary for the gospel of when believers sin. Not if, but when.

That's the bad preaching the righteous don't want to hear, how that all believers certainly will sin again and again against the Father and the Son.

2Ti 2:16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

It's only a matter of when.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Heb 12:8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Here, Paul is speaking to all believers. Believers that be without His chastisement, are bad believers that refuse it by disobedience.

Your understanding of Paul is lacking.
Paul's comment " without chastisement " means God has not chastised you, because you are not His child.
All of God's children being subject to God's chastisement.
If you are "without chastisement" that is a sure sign you are not His child.
You seem unaware of this very scripture being the source from which the old axiom:
" God does not whip the devil's children " came

 

[RBDERRICK]

Define "Believer" ?

Define bad works?

A believer in God is not an unbeliever in God. Bad works are not good works.

Why do you ask?

And also how many bad works will cause rejection ?

How many times did Adam transgress in the garden?

No one transgressing against God, is a born son of God by Jesus Christ. If we sin against the Son, we can confess to be forgiven and reconciled to God our Father.

For apostacy from Christ, the believer must wilfully sin without repentance, knowingly put Jesus Christ to an open shame and despise the Spirit of grace. God no longer deals with the reprobate believer, so that the Spirit does not convict the conscience of doing evil.

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Unless the Spirit draws the sinner to God for repentance, the transgressor cannot confess with the heart unto forgiveness by Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Fish153]

No child of disobedience is a son of God.


They will not be resurrected into the air to meet with the Lord, but appointed with the hypocrites of the earth.


Jesus has paid for the sins of the whole world.

1Jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He forgives past sins repented for His sake. Propitiation is payment, not forgiveness.

Forgiveness is only by repentance, not by propitiation alone, nor by believing in His propitiation alone.

No sinner is saved by Jesus' death on the cross, but only by His resurrection from the dead. Even as no man is born again at the cross, but only by repentance from sins with His resurrection.

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


I.e. doers of the law and word of Christ?

Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.




I.e. knowing the terror of the Lord, we persaude all believers to be faithfully obedient to His law and word?

Knowing that the Father will judge every man's works with respect of persons, especially the believers that call on Him?

Knowing that first we believers ought to walk obediently in the fear of the Lord, knowing He will first judge His people before the world?

2 Peter{4:17} For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.




Did you depart to find a church beleiving their Christ would never shut heaven's door on them, no matter how unfaithful?





The fear of the Lord in all our manners with asssurance of faith, is for only for them that repent of all sins and trespasses for His sake.

Fearing the Lord's judgment and wrath against disobedience, is only for the unfaithful and disobedient believers.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

We see the Lord calls us to fear Him all our time in passing on earth, not just time to time.

Is learning to fear the Lord only from time to time, why some bad believers continue to sin from time to time against Him.




There shouldn't be any assurance in the true Christ of God, while unfaithfully disobeying Him without fear.




Not to the ones who want to hear a preacher of righteousness, preaching against unfaithful sinning by any believer naming the name of Christ.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Such preachers are only preaching what Jesus Christ first says Himself.




I.e. just keeping believing in being saved, apart from our works, because we cannot be judged by them anyway?




Luk 16:31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



And how's that working out for you? Have you repented to cease sinning for your love of God, or only in part from time to time?

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

True love of God is obeying Him in deed and in truth, and not in lovely words by faith alone.

Rom 16:18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.


Right. Sure.

The commandment to repent from all sinning needs to be commanded, esle we cannot be saved.

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:



Mark 2;17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Heb 4:10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

So long as we are laboring with our own works by unrepentance, we are not entered into His rest from our old works, which is only by repentance.

If we've repented to cease sinning, we have and know it daily.

If we've not repented, or only lukewarmly in part, then we can hear about only.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

If we want to hear we have mercy and grace, whether doing the word or not, then there are plenty around glad to preach it to us.



Mess up. Cute word for rebellion. How about oopsies for sins and trespasses?

Such is the vocabulary for the gospel of when believers sin. Not if, but when.

That's the bad preaching the righteous don't want to hear, how that all believers certainly will sin again and again against the Father and the Son.

2Ti 2:16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

It's only a matter of when.

"no child of disobedience is a son of God". I don't want to continue arguing the point with you--but you need to go back and read Luke 15 about the Prodigal son. The son who asked his father for his inheritance and then went and blew all of the money on alcohol and women--did he STOP being a son to his Father? Did the Father tell the older son "Your younger brother is no longer one of my sons because he is in disobedience. I disown him"?

God "allows" us to go our own way sometimes so that we learn our lesson----but he never DISOWNS us. We are born-again Children of God. If we have truly been regenerated God will NEVER give up on us. What you HAVEN'T learned RB is one of the most important lessons of all. You are not holding onto God-----HE is holding onto you. As a little child at the Zoo (or wherever we visited) I often felt I was holding my Father's hand------but he was actually holding my hand. The Heavenly Father will NEVER let go of us. Faith is not how tightly you HOLD ONTO GOD. Faith is realizing and accepting the grip God HAS ON YOU---you realize His promises are absolutely true and He will never let you go. Do you remember the Apostle John? Did he call himself "the disciple who loved Jesus"? No----he called himself "the disciple whom Jesus loved". John had TRUE faith. John realized "we love Him because He first loved us".

Paul says: "But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? (Gal. 4:9) Do you see how Paul words that? it's not that you know God----but that HE KNOWS YOU. That's where you are erring brother. You are thinking that fear will cause Christians to "hold more tightly to God". But in reality God is ALREADY holding tightly to all of His children. If they stray he chastens and brings them back ("THY ROD and they staff they comfort me"--Psalm 23). I say once again---God will NEVER throw one of his true born-again children into the Lake of Fire, or into darkness. To believe that is to dishonor the Father. Jesus said that He will lose NONE of those whom the Father has given unto him.

Read John 21 (my favorite chapter in the Bible). The disciples catch 153 fish and NONE OF THEM are lost----the net does not break. This is a type of the Elect---the church of God. Jesus will not lose any that truly believe in Him--"he that comes to me I will IN NO WISE CAST OUT (John 6:37).

I only take exception to your desire to "threaten" the sheep into conformity. Jesus threatened the Pharisees and the religious leaders, but he didn't threaten believers. He warned them but in his love. "Let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the lord which exercise LOVINGKINDNESS, JUDGMENT AND RIGHTEOUSNESS in the earth, for in these things I delight saith the Lord" (Jer. 9:23).

It is so comforting to see that God lists Lovingkindness FIRST in his list of things He delights in. Praise the Lord!

 

[RBDERRICK]

Paul's comment " without chastisement " means God has not chastised you, because you are not His child.

True, which is the argument made: All those disobeying God are not His sons being chastised with obedience, but rather are children of disobdience, with only the chastening of the world to repent and become obedient sons of God.

2Sa 7:14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

God only chastices His sons. Only His obedient sons are in the godly household training of His continued obedience in all things, even as it was with His Son Jesus Christ.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Only them obeying God have the Son's eternal salvation, because only the obedient are sons of God, obediently doing His household good and righteous will.

1 Cor 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

In the Scripture we the believers are being warned time and again, to continue in obedience to God, knowing the terror of the Lord's wrath against all unrighteousness of men, without respect of persons.

 

[RBDERRICK]

All of God's children being subject to God's chastisement.

All people coming into the world are God's children by creation in His image.

All of God's born righteous sons are willingly subject to His chastisement, to learn continued obedience in all trials of faith.

All children of disobedience against God, make themselves subject to the chastening of the world to repent, the believer first and also the unbeliever.

You seem unaware of this very scripture being the source from which the old axiom:
" God does not whip the devil's children " came

Exactly again.

Bad believers refuse to be aware that anyone disobeying God are not His sons, but are chidlren of the devil. This righteous judgment of works is equal for all presently doing such things, without repsect of persons.

Not only are the works of the believers judged, but we are judged first before the world at the judgment seat of Christ:

2 Peter{4:17} For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? {4:18} And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Believers that vainly imagine their faith in God exempts them from that judgment of their works, are bad believers set to disobey without judgment.

Being without judgment of God, is being without chastisement of Christ. Them that deny His judgment of works, deny His chastisement, first the believer and also the unbeliever.

God shall judge us all by our works. The wilfully disobedient refuse both His chastisement and judgment. Until the grave, then there is only judgment.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Your understanding of Paul is lacking.
Paul's comment " without chastisement " means God has not chastised you, because you are not His child.
All of God's children being subject to God's chastisement.
If you are "without chastisement" that is a sure sign you are not His child.

True, which is the argument made: All those disobeying God are not His sons being chastised with obedience, but rather are children of disobdience, with only the chastening of the world to repent and become obedient sons of God.

You lumped together those being chastised & not being chastised by God, as being all "Believers".
There is no such animal as "believer" that God does not chastise accordingly.

RBDERRICK said:
Heb 12:8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
"Here, Paul is speaking to all believers. Believers that be without His chastisement, are bad believers that refuse it by disobedience."



If you are not being chastised by God you are not a "Believer"
Heb 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Bad believers ....

There is no "good" Believer , there is no "bad" Believer there are only Redeemed Believers still clothed in sinful flesh.

Mar 10:18
And Jesus said unto him..... there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Jhn 1:11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

His own believers recieving not His chastisment to obey, recieve Him not, the Jew first and also the Gentile.

Romans 11 confirms the judgment of the believers works for good or bad, with acceptance or rejection:

Rom 11:20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

His own believers recieved not His chastisement to obey, and were broken off from God's house of Israel. And so it is today with believers that do not obey Him, and are cut off from the house of the risen God of Israel.

He spared not the angels that sinned in heaven, that were sons of God. He spared not the wicked that sinned in the days of Noah, that were created in His image. And He spares not His people that sin in His own house, that were obedient believers by faith.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,

His judgment of works upon the disobedient believers is severity of being cut off, and upon the obedient is His goodness of being grafted in.

If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

And if the obedient believers continue in His goodness, they shall not be cut off as the bad that disobey.

Continuing in His goodness, is by continuing in His obedience.

The severity of God is to cut off His own believers by disobedience, the Jews first and also the Gentiles. The goodness of God is keep in house His own obedient believers, the Jews first and also the Gentile.

Knowing the severe terror of the Lord against all disobedience of men, we persuade all believers to continue in His good obedience, and not be cut off by refusing His chastisement unto disobedience, first the Jew and also the Gentile.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Heb 10 also confirms Rom 11 works of believers at the judgment seat of Christ, being cut off by disobedience and accepted with obedience.

Heb{10:29} Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? {10:30} For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

We see here the Lord's warning of terror and severity to His people, is for the bad believers that were sanctified saints and sons of God.

Believers refusing the chastisement of God's house to obey, and instead disobey Him with the unbelievers of the world, only have terror, severity, and vengeance coming with the judgment seat of Christ.

Heb 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The Lord from the beginning has devoured with vengeance His adversaries that were His people, which began with Lucifer in heaven, and Adam on earth.

Jas 4:4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Afterall, there were no adversaries of God among His creation, until them that were good despised His Spirit of grace and chastisement, and made themselves enemies.

Eze 28:15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Only bad works of iniquity by the Lord's people come with terror, severity, and vengeance at the judgment seat of Christ. Not for any errors of ministry with simple correction in the doctrine and service of Christ.

The only believers to stand before the Lord with 'smoke' coming from them, are the disobedient and bad raised from hell with the rest of the unrighteous dead, before the Lord's GWT in heaven. Which will be over a thousand years after the Lord Jesus Christ comes to earth again to judge His people from His seat in the air.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Believers refusing the chastisement of God's house to obey, and instead disobey Him with the unbelievers of the world, only have terror, severity, and vengeance coming with the judgment seat of Christ.

You are obviously deeply troubled with the fate of a disobedient .
How did such personal vexing come to your heart concerning a disobedient ?
Is it a disobedient friend or family member you have personally witnessed refusing chastisement that has you so concerned for their fate ?

 

[RBDERRICK]

"no child of disobedience is a son of God". I don't want to continue arguing the point with you--but you need to go back and read Luke 15 about the Prodigal son.

A contradictory message, but I'll continue the argument as asked.

Luke{15:24} For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

The son that was dead to the Father by wilfull disobedience, and was alive again to the Father by repentance unto obedience.

Ezek 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

If we sin and die to God, we can repent and return to be reconciled to the Father, by the advocacy of Jesus Christ. He advocates for any sinner, that repents for His sake.

Mar 2:17 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk 16:25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

The rich man too was a son of Abraham, that repented not unto death and hell in the grave.

I disown him"?

The son disowned the Father, not the Father the son. The righteous Father let's the rebllious leave His house for the world of disobedience.

The Lord does not forsake the faithful, but the unfaithful forsake the Lord, and the Lord let's them go away from Him.

2Ch 24:20, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.

Gen 4:16And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

 

[RBDERRICK]

God "allows" us to go our own way sometimes so that we learn our lesson----

If we do, good, if not, bad. In the meantime, the rebellious like Adam and Cain are gone away from the Lord, except they repent.

2 Cor{6:14} Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? {6:15} And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Isa 59:2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

We know by Scripture that Cain repented not. Scripture doesn't say about Adam.

If we have truly been regenerated God

Then we obey Him as sons, not disobey Him as children of the devil.

1Jo 3:10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

will NEVER give up on us.

He only gives up wilful sinning without repentance, and openly shaming the Son without conviction of the Spirit.

When God gives up on unrepentant rebels that were anointed by Him, we're not even to pray for them:

1Sa 16:1And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel?

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

--HE is holding onto you.

Not to any disobedient child of the devil.

2 Cor{6:14} Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? {6:15} And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
He's not even touching them:

Heb 7:26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

John realized "we love Him because He first loved us".

God first loves disobedient sinners, by convicting them of sin to repent and come unto His Son.

God first loves repented obedient saints, by training us to continue obeying the Him in all things, even as the Father with His believed Son Jesus.

In the holy God's homeschooling, disobedience ends the schooling, by not living in His holy house.

The illigitament disobedient are still loved by longsuiffering to repent and return home. Until the grave. There is no repentance toward God granted in the grave. Nor is there any joker's faith-card played against being judged by works.

Whether at the judgmetn seat of Christ between good and bad believers, or at the GWT by good and bad works.

it's not that you know God----but that HE KNOWS YOU.

Both with the obedient knowing God, and the disobedient knowing Him not, God knows all of us by our works.

Mat 12:33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Rev{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Jesus will not lose any that truly believe in Him--

By faithful obedience. Not by any disobedience.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The example of obedience of the Son, is not only in what things, but also in all things, not only in some things.

John{8:29} And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

The command of God to repent, is not only in what things, but also in all things, not only in some sins and trespasses.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

"he that comes to me I will IN NO WISE CAST OUT (John 6:37).

Since only them obeying Him are coming to Him, then He has no just cause to cast them out.

John 3; For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.