Just how important is belief in regards to heaven

[theLords]

Thats pretty much my view as well.
So just how important is belief?

It is what God values the most. Remember Abraham was considered righteous because of his belief?

The question is now "belief in what"?

The way to enter into the Kingdom of God, is belief in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

One can believe that his own "righteous" acts will get him into the Kingdom of God but that doesn't do him any good in the end.

 

[coffeeelover]

It is what God values the most. Remember Abraham was considered righteous because of his belief?

The question is now "belief in what"?

The way to enter into the Kingdom of God, is belief in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

One can believe that his own "righteous" acts will get him into the Kingdom of God but that doesn't do him any good in the end.

So God is torturing Gandi in Hell forever and ever?

 

[danjon]

well yes, but that is still no answer.
I think you may be missunderstanding the question.

If a humble man, A man aware of his sin, a man seeking forgiveness, a man who spends his life battling evil with good. basically someone like Gandi, basically someone that fits into Isaiah 64:1-7. were to come before God after he died and admit that he had never belived. Would God cast him out?

I think that no, that man would be allowed into heaven.
and that being the case just how important is believing?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

"sure, my point was only that if anyone can be called good it would be Gandi.
But is that enough?"

Ghandi was only "Good" by human standards. But then NO Human is "Good" by God's standards - which no Human can ever meet. simple as that.

Neither YOU, me, nor anybody else WILL EVER "Earn" his way into the kingdom of God, or be anything other than filthy in God's sight regardless of WHAT you do.

Simple as that.

SO - God provided Jesus to be the blood sacrifice for YOUR sin (because without the shedding of blood there IS NO remission of sin).

"Belief" as in "intellectual ascent" is not enough - the devils "believe" -

It's when you SEE and understand the depth of YOUR sin, and cry out to God to save you and place your faith in the sacrifice of Jesus that you're forgiven, and begin to become a "Child of God" that things change. The ONLY righteousness you will EVER possess is Jesus' righteousness which becomes yours as a Christian.

SO - if Gandhi died WITHOUT trusting Jesus for his salvation - his "humanistic goodness" wasn't sufficient to save him. And if Hitler had become a Christian in the bunker - then his sins wouldn't have kept him out of Heaven.

 

[theLords]

So God is torturing Gandi in Hell forever and ever?

Did I not make it explicitly clear that I dare not say such a thing and that I was using Scripture to show the path of Salvation that the God of Abraham laid out?

 

[lamplady]

What is Hades?

Also, what if they repent to God directly and don't believe in Jesus?

You HAVE to BELIEVE in JESUS. It is the ONLY way to God ...

If I remember my greek mythology correctly then everybody ends up in the underworld with Hades, it just that those that the gods deem worthy get access to a sort of VIP area. Its only those that are extremely insulting ( not bad, just rude) that get punished.

Good intentions may leed to evil deeds but what about good deeds?
can you get into heaven on good deeds alone?

Again no ... see above ...

 

[coffeeelover]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

"sure, my point was only that if anyone can be called good it would be Gandi.
But is that enough?"

Ghandi was only "Good" by human standards. But then NO Human is "Good" by God's standards - which no Human can ever meet. simple as that.

Neither YOU, me, nor anybody else WILL EVER "Earn" his way into the kingdom of God, or be anything other than filthy in God's sight regardless of WHAT you do.

Simple as that.

SO - God provided Jesus to be the blood sacrifice for YOUR sin (because without the shedding of blood there IS NO remission of sin).

"Belief" as in "intellectual ascent" is not enough - the devils "believe" -

It's when you SEE and understand the depth of YOUR sin, and cry out to God to save you and place your faith in the sacrifice of Jesus that you're forgiven, and begin to become a "Child of God" that things change. The ONLY righteousness you will EVER possess is Jesus' righteousness which becomes yours as a Christian.

SO - if Gandhi died WITHOUT trusting Jesus for his salvation - his "humanistic goodness" wasn't sufficient to save him. And if Hitler had become a Christian in the bunker - then his sins wouldn't have kept him out of Heaven.

So Gandi is being tortured in Hell for eternity and Hitler is in heaven with a Great Mansion walking on streets of Gold? People sometimes wonder what I mean when I say Christian theology often makes no sense.

 

[danjon]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

I'm afraid that we must agree to disagree on this.
I am utterly unwilling to accept such an evil view on God.
What you are basically saying is that we can sin as much as we like as long we accept the fact that God through Jesus can save us.

I find it ridiculous to think that God sets himself as the standard for earthly good.
That is like comparing the Rockies with the himalayas and judging them flat as a result.

 

[theLords]

well yes, but that is still no answer.
I think you may be missunderstanding the question.

If a humble man, A man aware of his sin, a man seeking forgiveness, a man who spends his life battling evil with good. basically someone like Gandi, basically someone that fits into Isaiah 64:1-7. were to come before God after he died and admit that he had never belived. Would God cast him out?

I think that no, that man would be allowed into heaven.
and that being the case just how important is believing?

A humble man would understand that he is capable of both wicked and good. A humble man who struggled with God would be honored by God. The Bible says that "Blessed are those who hunger and search for righteousness sake for they shall be filled."

This now arises the issue of how can another man read another man's heart when such power belongs to God alone?

Who's to say that Gandhi didn't believe in Christ? He rejected organized religion not Jesus.

However, we as Christians, cannot know Gandhi's heart because he never shared this aspect of his life did he? Yet, we certainly see that Gandhi knew the love of God and the teachings of Christ from the way we conducted his life don't we?

Yet, the Gandhi's of this world are extremely few right?

 

[lamplady]

Ah. Yeah that's one of those things I just don't believe all powerful caring God does. Gandi isn't being tortured in Hell for eternity because he didn't believe Jesus was God. Neither are Hindus, or Buddhists. Good people aren't tortured by their loving creator for something so silly. Morons and JW aren't going to burn in Hell either.

People often want the bible to say what THEY want it to say not what it DOES say ...

 

[danjon]

You HAVE to BELIEVE in JESUS. It is the ONLY way to God ...

In life yes, but to Heaven?
I would be very surprised if that was the case.

 

[coffeeelover]

People often want the bible to say what THEY want it to say not what it DOES say ...

That is very true, but there is a very old saying that when you point a finger at someone else 4 are pointing back at you. I think you suffer from the problem of seeing what you want to see in the bible.

 

[theLords]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

I'm afraid that we must agree to disagree on this.
I am utterly unwilling to accept such an evil view on God.
What you are basically saying is that we can sin as much as we like as long we accept the fact that God through Jesus can save us.

I find it ridiculous to think that God sets himself as the standard for earthly good.
That is like comparing the Rockies with the himalayas and judging them flat as a result.

The issue that keeps arising is that you are trying to do what only God has the power to do, see inside the hearts of men.

For all you know Gandhi could've been a man full of perversity in his private life. He could have sat in peaceful demonstrations thinking about perverse things. You judge the outside but God judges the inside.

That concept that we can sin as much as we want is false. We must repent when we become believers in Christ, no? That means that we must produce the fruit of repentance in our lives to show that we have been born again. Those who continue on in sin need to examine their hearts to see if they have truly believed within their hearts or simply confessed with their mouths.

God doesn't set the standard for "earthly good" the prince of this world sets that standard.

God sets the standard of "heavenly good" meaning that all those who desire to dwell with Him in heaven for eternity must meat the "Godly standard of good" to be allowed to enter in. This is impossible for man to do on his own so God made it possible through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[danjon]

A humble man would understand that he is capable of both wicked and good. A humble man who struggled with God would be honored by God. The Bible says that "Blessed are those who hunger and search for righteousness sake for they shall be filled."

what if the man struggles with good, is it not possible thats enough?

This now arises the issue of how can another man read another man's heart when such power belongs to God alone?

Who's to say that Gandhi didn't believe in Christ? He rejected organized religion not Jesus.

True I guess, but hardly relevant, all indications point to Gandhi being a Hindu or at best a Deist, but again that not really relevant

However, we as Christians, cannot know Gandhi's heart because he never shared this aspect of his life did he? Yet, we certainly see that Gandhi knew the love of God and the teachings of Christ from the way we conducted his life don't we?

That is kind of the point, what if you follow Christ example but don't believe him to be the son of God, what then?

Yet, the Gandhi's of this world are extremely few right?

Sadly true, but again hardly relevant

 

[danjon]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

The issue that keeps arising is that you are trying to do what only God has the power to do, see inside the hearts of men.

For all you know Gandhi could've been a man full of perversity in his private life. He could have sat in peaceful demonstrations thinking about perverse things. You judge the outside but God judges the inside.

all true, none of it relevant to the question.

That concept that we can sin as much as we want is false. We must repent when we become believers in Christ, no? That means that we must produce the fruit of repentance in our lives to show that we have been born again. Those who continue on in sin need to examine their hearts to see if they have truly believed within their hearts or simply confessed with their mouths.

Of course true, that question was only to make a point.

God doesn't set the standard for "earthly good" the prince of this world sets that standard.

Of course he does, He may do it through Jesus but it still his standard.

God sets the standard of "heavenly good" meaning that all those who desire to dwell with Him in heaven for eternity must meat the "Godly standard of good" to be allowed to enter in. This is impossible for man to do on his own so God made it possible through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ.

I afraid this brings us back to Stalin. If this was the case our earthly actions would have no value in our final judgement. That simply is not the case.

 

[lamplady]

In life yes, but to Heaven?
I would be very surprised if that was the case.

: How can you presumably agree that you have to believe in Jesus to get to God, (in life?), but then say that it's not the way to get to heaven?

That is very true, but there is a very old saying that when you point a finger at someone else 4 are pointing back at you. I think you suffer from the problem of seeing what you want to see in the bible.

I'm not pointing any finger at anyone - just stating what it actually does say in the bible. I'm definitely not seeing what I want to see.

Have YOU ever read the bible word for word, cover to cover? Have you ever prayed for direction. Do you WANT to?

 

[danjon]

I on the other hand don't find the Scripture to be very clear on this point.
Belief may lead to all sorts of thing that again lead to heaven.
the question is how valuable is belief on its own.
and especially just how important is lack of belief in the final tally?

 

[coffeeelover]

Have YOU ever read the bible word for word, cover to cover? Have you ever prayed for direction. Do you WANT to?

Never cover to cover word for word. I have read most of it at various times. I went to church for years. Often many times per week. I have prayed many many times.

How are you so sure your interpretation is the correct one?

 

[lamplady]

Never cover to cover word for word. I have read most of it at various times. I went to church for years. Often many times per week. I have prayed many many times.

One thing I'm not reading is that you believe ... so I take it you don't. So how can YOU tell me how it go? ...

How are you so sure your interpretation is the correct one?

Because it is ...

 

[theLords]

what if the man struggles with good, is it not possible thats enough?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you elaborate?

True I guess, but hardly relevant, all indications point to Gandhi being a Hindu or at best a Deist, but again that not really relevant

No one really knows except for God what Gandhi believed in his heart, so no one except for God can judge what was in his heart right? So only God gets to decide if Gandhi will enter into heaven based on His standard for allowing men into His kingdom.

That is kind of the point, what if you follow Christ example but don't believe him to be the son of God, what then?

It's not enough to follow Christ's example because Christ's teachings are extreme and designed so that you are either all in or all out. The Bible says that the good acts we do fall short of the glory of God. Imagine a heaven where everyone gets into it based on merit alone. One man can boast to another, "I have more good deeds than you!" The Bible teaches that we as humans are all equal in our sins in the eyes of God. Stalin murdered millions of people, but the Bible says that "If you so much as hate your brother you are guilty of murder." So what about a racist who hates people with dark skin? He like Stalin is also guilty of murdering millions of people. This is why the God of Abraham designed salvation in such a way that no one could boast that his own merit got him into Heaven. Everyone in the Kingdom of God will only be able to say "I am here because of the Grace and Love of the Lord Jesus"

Sadly true, but again hardly relevant

It's extremely relevant because you are taking the special case of one man and trying to apply it to many other people who do not bare similarities.