Just how important is belief in regards to heaven

[danjon]

Not sure if I like this 2 subthread thing we have got going, but hey at least its efficient

Forgive me for my lack of understanding but I still don't grasp what you're asking.

How can a humble man struggle with good? I understand that a humble man would struggle with evil, but how does he struggle with good?

Is there a diffrence?
either way he is struggling to do good. perhaps struggling with good can be taken to mean a slightly higher level. that is struggling to do good instead of struggling to refrain from evil. in any case I put it like that simply because i felt it fitted better into the sentance.

Here we must determine the standard of the definition of good before we can answer the question of what role belief plays into this. That's what I've been trying to do with my posts. I'm trying to lay a foundation so we can move towards satisfying this question you have. I'm not trying to give you the run a round. I am sincerely trying to answer your question to the best of my Biblical knowledge.

don't see why we need to do this. Trying to determine the definition of good is certainly a good debate subject, just don't see how it effects this discussion.

Yes, Jesus did say that, but the Bible also says that the "love of money is the root of all evil." Jesus does not have any issue with wealthy or material excess. He has a problem with the fact that many put their wealth and material excess before Him in their lives. Remember why Jesus spoke those words. A rich young man came to Him and asked Him how to get into heaven. The Lord told him to sell all his possessions and follow Him as His disciple. The young man went away sad because he had alot of poessesions. The Lord was basically asking him to sacrifice his life and become a poor, homeless follower of Christ. The account shows that the young man couldn't do it. He loved his possessions more then he loved God.

Now with that verse in context do you see things differently?

we both know the story apparently, I on the other hand was alluding not to the story itself but the sentance. I have no doubt that, as I have already stated at least twice in this thread already, that belief is undoubtedly the surest way to heaven. That the easiest way for the young man to get into heaven was to follow Christ. It's just that I see no reason to think that having turned his back on Christ that he is now barred from ever entering.
What I meant by the quote was simply that your standings on Earth is a factor.

You are absolutely right in that our earthly actions count as a factor and the Bible says that we will be rewarded for our good works. Yet, this comes back to the need for us to establish the Biblical standard for good. The Bible says that we are justified through faith but that we have must have works to display the fruit of belief in our lives. I can simply say I believe that Jesus died for my sins and then continue to walk in my sin. I can say, "But I have faith! I'm justified!" The Bible shows that I must have "works from faith" to prove my faith. So when I believe that Christ died for my sins and then turn away from my sins and lead a holy life, I now have both the right balance of faith and works in my life.

What that means, at least as far as I can see, is that you must both do good and mean to do good. that accidentally doing good or doing good for an evil cause doesn't count.

In regards to sin. All sin is equal to all sin. There is no one sin that is greater then another. In the eyes of men you make a valid point, but the Lord says "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts, and My ways are higher than your ways." In the eyes of God, when the standard for good is the standard of Christ the Lord, all are sinners in need of repentance.

unless I'm mistaken this is opposite to what you claimed earlier. how can sin count and at the same time not count?
also I'm not sure how we got to this point. let me try and come back to the original question:
either not believing is a sin and a such is forgivable like all other or its not a sin in which case its irrelevant. Now I know this is a great simplification but that was the original question: Just how important is beliving in regards to getting into heaven?

You say that you believe that good deeds can get you into heaven, and I am not criticizing your beliefs as you consider yourself to be a brother in the faith. What I'm simply showing you is that Scripture does not support the notion that good deeds can get one into heaven.

I'm afraid that I'm simply not seeing it. I can't think of anything in the Bible that says that a worthy person can't get in if he does not belief.
I can't see it to the point that I'm actually surprised by the direction the thread has taken. I took it as a given that it was possible.

 

[lamplady]

Exactly That is what Mormons and JW believe. So they get to heaven. So many people seem to think they don't.

Got no idea ...

 

[danjon]

Re: Creative - but not what I said

What you are basically saying is that we can sin as much as we like as long we accept the fact that God through Jesus can save us.

But of course I never said that, did I??

that was the implication. I didn't really think that you meant it that way but that was the gist of it.

There's a lot more to "Christianity" than "accepting the fact that God through Jesus can save us." The devil "accepts that fact" easily - and it scares him.

It's "Faith" that does the job, not "Mental ascent". And one who IS a Christian - will be constrained by the Holy Spirit from living in willful sin. That's in Romans the first 8 chapters - why don't you see what it says???

granted, However unless your planning to go full on jehovah's witness on us then you must be willing to accept that belief is not the deciding factor when it comes to entering heaven.

 

[coffeeelover]

Got no idea ...

How could you have no idea? Doesn't your holy spirit recognise theirs?

 

[danjon]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

I feel a bit silly having to ask this but are you sure your a Christian?
if I'm reading you correctly you seem to think that there are a multitude of heavens. one for each "god" and that maybe Gandhi failed to get in to Heaven but thats alright because he made it into Walhalla.
I sure hope I'm in error here because if I'm not then I'm afraid that you have been seriously misreading your Bible.

Now you do make other points but they seem all to stem from this basic missunderstanding so I will wait for a clarification on this point before going further.

 

[theLords]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

I feel a bit silly having to ask this but are you sure your a Christian?
if I'm reading you correctly you seem to think that there are a multitude of heavens. one for each "god" and that maybe Gandhi failed to get in to Heaven but thats alright because he made it into Walhalla.
I sure hope I'm in error here because if I'm not then I'm afraid that you have been seriously misreading your Bible.

Now you do make other points but they seem all to stem from this basic missunderstanding so I will wait for a clarification on this point before going further.

LOL, yes I am sure I'm a Christian. But what this board has taught me is that I'm not always the best communicator. I thought I gave an understanding to what I was saying in my post #58.

What I meant about the "various types of heavens" was that there is one true, perfect heaven and then there are man made heavens. The God of Abraham lays claim to the one perfect heaven. The various man made heavens (the heavens of other gods/religions) all belong to satan and that he repackages Hell into a psuedo-Heaven to deceive the masses into following him any way he can.

Does that clarify it for you?

 

[lamplady]

How could you have no idea? Doesn't your holy spirit recognise theirs?

Knew you was going to say that! lol. Did add more earlier too but thought you'd find fault so thought it was best to wait.

Anyhoo... it's like this: Jesus said: who's not for me is against me; who does not help me gather is really scattering ...

From what I hear about JW's and Mormons they tend to add and take away what the bible says and they change constantly.

I cannot possibly tell you that ALL JW's and ALL Mormons are going to hell.

I CAN tell you that he wants us to do HIS will.

ONLY God knows his children, who are already saved and who already has their names written in the book of life ...

 

[theLords]

You see the problem that keeps arising is that you are holding to the earthly concept of what good is and I am holding to the Biblical concept of what good is.

You are approaching Spiritual issues with the logic of men and this is why we seem to be having difficulty understanding each other. We are standing on two different levels trying to talk about the same issue.

Is belief needed to enter into Heaven, absolutely. What is that belief? That Jesus Christ is purely God who paid for our sins that we may have everlasting life. This is what is needed to enter into the Heaven of the God of Abraham. Anyone who believes in his heart that Christ is God and asks Him for forgiveness with the fruit of repentance in his life will enter in.

Using good deeds to get into heaven and trying to use your own merit to be accepted in is unBiblical and a rejection of the Salvation that God provided on the cross with Christ. That type of thinking nullifies the pain and suffering of Christ. If good deeds got us into heaven then there would have been no need for Jesus to come to earth.

 

[coffeeelover]

Knew you was going to say that! lol. Did add more earlier too but thought you'd find fault so thought it was best to wait.

Anyhoo... it's like this: Jesus said: who's not for me is against me; who does not help me gather is really scattering ...

From what I hear about JW's and Mormons they tend to add and take away what the bible says and they change constantly.

I cannot possibly tell you that ALL JW's and ALL Mormons are going to hell.

I CAN tell you that he wants us to do HIS will.

ONLY God knows his children, who are already saved and who already has their names written in the book of life ...

It doesn't matter what theological errors one has as long as you truly believe in Jesus. That is why it is ok for Mormons to be polygamist.

 

[danjon]

okey...
think that I understand what it is that you think, now the problem is that I don't think that your right.

As far as I understand it you dont get sent to hell unless you deserve it. that is you have sined in either mind or body. Now you can say that not believing is a sin, and thus earns you a stay in hell. it just that I haven't seen anything to indicate this to be the case.
as such the consept of a man who faces his limitations, truly regrets his sins and repents for them gaining entry into heaven is not an impossible one, even if this individual never belived in Jesus or even God.
It may be harder for a non-believer to do this then for a believer (and all indications point to this being rather hard even if you believe) but it's just not impossible.

As I explained earlier then I agree with you that your actions here on earth don't directly effect your chances on entering heaven. That it's more about having a good soul than doing good. But for such a soul to reside in a non-believer is, as far as I can tell, not an impossibility.

 

[danjon]

From what I hear about JW's and Mormons they tend to add and take away what the bible says and they change constantly.

the problem is that the same can be said for Catholics. and protestants are only slightly better. even on a personal scale we are constantly shifting. maybe no day to day but certainly decade to decade.

Oh and the Mormons dont have polygamist anymore. their "prophet" had a revelation not so wery long ago saying that it was now wrong.

 

[theLords]

okey...
think that I understand what it is that you think, now the problem is that I don't think that your right.

As far as I understand it you dont get sent to hell unless you deserve it. that is you have sined in either mind or body. Now you can say that not believing is a sin, and thus earns you a stay in hell. it just that I haven't seen anything to indicate this to be the case.
as such the consept of a man who faces his limitations, truly regrets his sins and repents for them gaining entry into heaven is not an impossible one, even if this individual never belived in Jesus or even God.
It may be harder for a non-believer to do this then for a believer (and all indications point to this being rather hard even if you believe) but it's just not impossible.

As I explained earlier then I agree with you that your actions here on earth don't directly effect your chances on entering heaven. That it's more about having a good soul than doing good. But for such a soul to reside in a non-believer is, as far as I can tell, not an impossibility.

That's okay you don't have to think I'm right. All I did was quote Scripture the rest is up to you.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Jehova's Witness????

What do "Jehova's Witnesses" (who are a salvation by WORKS heresy) have to do with anything???

"I didn't really think that you meant it that way but that was the gist of it."

Not true, I contently have stated that "Belief" isn't the determining factor. It appears that you simply read past it since it wasn't the "GIST" of anything I said whatsoever.

Oh - and "belief" (as in "mental ascent") is not the deciding factor when it comes to salvation. It can be a COMPONENT of salvation, but it's FAITH that get's 'er done.

 

[lamplady]

It doesn't matter what theological errors one has as long as you truly believe in Jesus. That is why it is ok for Mormons to be polygamist.

First let me say I commend you on asking questions. I wanted to say this before. You're doing the right thing. I hoping you'd find there is no where to run or hide with Jesus - he's got every corner surveyed because in a nutshell he's the truth.

So to answer we have to believe and follow Jesus that is true but we also have to want to do God's will.
Now according to the bible I read it's not ok to be a polygamist. God is the judge.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

FAITH is the key -

"So is being in Jesus and covered by righteousness the same as believing in Jesus?"

Not necessarily. Everybody "believes" in Jesus (in one way or another), and most "say" they "Believe in God" (whatever that means to 'em).

But "Being IN Jesus results when one comes to "Repentance" - REAL Repentance for his sin, places his FAITH (which God gives him) in the shed Blood of Jesus to be his sacrifice for sin, and "takes his hands OFF his life", and lets GOD direct his paths.

As I said "Belief" is a component in that, but not the "Whole Story".

 

[coffeeelover]

Now according to the bible I read it's not ok to be a polygamist. God is the judge.

The bible has several stories of men having multiple wives one had hundreds, and it was ok with God. Its right in the bible.

 

[coffeeelover]

The bible has several stories of men having multiple wives one had hundreds, and it was ok with God. Its right in the bible.

But it doesn't matter that it is condoned in the bible. According to belief only theology nothing else matters as long as there is belief. So if the Mormons believe they are saved.

 

[lamplady]

the problem is that the same can be said for Catholics. and protestants are only slightly better.

Perhaps ...

even on a personal scale we are constantly shifting. maybe no day to day but certainly decade to decade.

What do you mean, in what way? ...

Oh and the Mormons dont have polygamist anymore. their "prophet" had a revelation not so wery long ago saying that it was now wrong.

k

The bible has several stories of men having multiple wives one had hundreds, and it was ok with God. Its right in the bible.

That's true. But I believe the bible in the NT said we're to have one husband and one wife.

....

 

[danjon]

That's okay you don't have to think I'm right. All I did was quote Scripture the rest is up to you.

could you restate the passages, must have missed them the first time around and can't fine them now.

 

[danjon]

Re: FAITH is the key -

As I said "Belief" is a component in that, but not the "Whole Story".

Is is a vital part?
I am thinking of for example buddish monks, few groups have tried harder to follow gods will. Is it not possible that God does guide some of them, even if they aren't Christians. Can they all be doomed to Hell?