Just how important is belief in regards to heaven

[Sparkey]

There Were Many Trees in Paradise, 2 in Particular:
Consider the nature of the two trees mentioned in Genesis. The Tree of Life and the Tree of the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It's the later that I'd like to draw attention to. Some ppl shorten the name of the tree to the Knowledge of Good and Evil, suggesting that knowledge is somehow evil but 'knowledge' is the general, higher qualifier; the phrase 'of Good and Evil' is the specific, finer description.

When mankind ate the FRUIT of that tree, experiencing the outcome of knowing Good and Evil our eyes were indeed opened (as expected) but built into that process, and coming with it was our own sense of wrongness, our conscience which showed our wrongness, having fallen short of the Goodness. Some have suggested that although mankind was ashamed and aware of the situation the sense of loss prohibited our being able to do well and that we needed God to provide laws to guide us in our decision making process. Clearly, our desire to be able to judge good from evil, to be able to "be like God", apart from God, was not able to save but only to convict.

God then gave the law for the purpose of bringing us to Christ. I've heard (on this very forum) an analogy of how the law was like a school bus driver, who was tasked with delivering us to the school and teacher, and that after being brought to Jesus and forgiveness, the task of the law (and its authority) was discharged. Knowledge (even of God's good Law) failed in the task of righting the situation. It took God, delivering on His promise to do that. He has written the law into our hearts and those who walk with Him, who love justice and mercy have been given the power to become Sons of God.

We see the rule of the Fruit of Good and Evil, of being able to judge right from wrong apart from God, clarified in the New Testament. Be aware that Paul was speaking to men who considered themselves Judges and capable spiritual leaders:

"Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? ... For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."​

Romans 2:1-3, 11-16 NKJV

totopic HOW IMPORTANT IS BELIEF?
Remaining in Genesis, but departing paradise brings us to a man known as Abram. He is the father of our belief, our GodTrust. That man heard what God said and acted on it. He left his own city and walked with God seeking a new city, as promised, whose builder and maker was God. Abram did more than look to his ability to know the difference between good and evil. He trusted (believed) God and walked with Him. We see then that the promise given to Abram by God, to make him the father of nations (even in his old age) was kept. The Promise continued through his son, Isaac and his grandson Jacob. The Promise continued through the seed of Ruth, a Moabitess, the grandmother of King David.

Behold the Goodness of God
I don't want to sidetrack too far here though but mention this to further show the goodness of God - that He makes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on both good and evil alike. The children of land of Moab (and Ruth) came from Abraham's nephew, Lot. They were joined back into the Children of Israel (Jacob) and fully joined into the promise even to the extent that the one known as the Tree of Life itself, Jesus was born of her as well.

"But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul."
Joshua 22:5 KJV

"Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day."​

1 Kings 8:61 KJV

THE PROMISE:
It was a promise that was first made to the serpent that first lied, being a deceiver, back in the garden, - "So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."
Genesis 3:14-15 NKJV

God continued to speak to the Children of Abraham, through His servants, the Prophets, "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."
Isaiah 9:6-7 NKJV

"With what shall I come before the LORD, And bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, With calves a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?"
Micah 6:6-8 NKJV

How Important is Belief?
In conclusion then, and in reply to your question about the importance of belief, it is absolutely critical. Who would go to God without the expectation that He is good and that He will reward those who diligently seek Him? To answer your unstated question, "Can we continue to sin and remain in faith?"

"For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
2 Corinthians 5:14-21 NKJV

With regard to a specific man, Gandhi, for instance, I can not speak about what is between him and God. I do know that every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess that God is Good, that He is Just and that He loves Mercy. Those who walk with Him are given the power to become sons (and daughters). Let our hearts then be turned to our Father that the service of Jesus have the benefit, the fruit intended. He is the Tree of LIFE.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: FAITH is the key -

Is is a vital part?
I am thinking of for example buddish monks, few groups have tried harder to follow gods will. Is it not possible that God does guide some of them, even if they aren't Christians. Can they all be doomed to Hell?

Hi Rom. 2 is bottom/line Gospel. How could God be thought of to 'JUSTLY' execute the past ones who had not known present day truth? Paul in the below Inspiration documents that there will be many saved who kept the only truth that was revealed to them. {BY & THROUGH GOD'S NATURE]

[11] For there is no respect of persons with God.
[12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

[14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

[15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

[16] In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


We have a wonderful Loving Privalege to be used, but we were never totally needed, huh!

--Elijah

 

[danjon]

Re: FAITH is the key -

Thanks for the input Elijah it nicely demonstrates my point.
of course we will all be judge by the same standard, God law is the ultimite law and if you break it, then claiming ignorance is no defence. That of course stackes the deck against non-believers as its hard to follow a law you dont know, or don't recognize the authority behind.
But there is nothing in Romans (and I have looked) that says that not believing is against that law. now it is possible that I have simply not seen that particular passage, in which case i would appreciate your help in finding it.
Otherwice the original question stands:
Believing may help in following the laws, but just how much?

 

[danjon]

First of thanks for what I am forced to consider the first proper reply.

Let me cut it down to just the point that I find directly relevant to the question.

"With what shall I come before the LORD, And bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, With calves a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?"
Micah 6:6-8 NKJV

How Important is Belief?
In conclusion then, and in reply to your question about the importance of belief, it is absolutely critical. Who would go to God without the expectation that He is good and that He will reward those who diligently seek Him? To answer your unstated question, "Can we continue to sin and remain in faith?"

With regard to a specific man, Gandhi, for instance, I can not speak about what is between him and God. I do know that every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess that God is Good, that He is Just and that He loves Mercy. Those who walk with Him are given the power to become sons (and daughters). Let our hearts then be turned to our Father that the service of Jesus have the benefit, the fruit intended. He is the Tree of LIFE.

I am afraid that you may have read more out of the question then was put in.
If there is an unstated question in there it is something more along the lines of:
Can you have faith without belief?

what speaks most directly to the original question is :
And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?"
does this demand Christian belief? I don't see how it does.
The reason I brought up Gandhi in the OP was because he seemed at least to live up to the essence of the Christianity, without actually being Christian.
now I'm not at all suggesting that non-believers have an easier time doing this.
What I am wondering is whether its acctually easier for us believers?
I look around my Christian surroundings, at my fellow churchgoers and at myself. and then I look at non-Christian communities, such as Buddists or sikh and it seems to me that we aren't doing any better then they are in living up to our standard.
Basically I'm not seeing that belief helps us live the sort of life that gets us into Heaven.

Now those societies are of course in grave violation of the first few commandments, but what about deists, should I actually be trying to convert them? Do we really need to worry about Athiest?

 

[danjon]

Re: Jehova's Witness????

sorry if I was putting word in your mouth.
its seems that I have missread your posts as a claim that belief was vital.
As such the comparison with JW is probably unfounded as you arent insisting on all non-followers being thrown to hell.

Must admit that this being the case, I don't quite understand where you are going with your previous posts.

 

[Sparkey]

First of thanks for what I am forced to consider the first proper reply.

Let me cut it down to just the point that I find directly relevant to the question.



I am afraid that you may have read more out of the question then was put in.
If there is an unstated question in there it is something more along the lines of:
Can you have faith without belief?

what speaks most directly to the original question is :
And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?"
does this demand Christian belief? I don't see how it does.
The reason I brought up Gandhi in the OP was because he seemed at least to live up to the essence of the Christianity, without actually being Christian.
now I'm not at all suggesting that non-believers have an easier time doing this.
What I am wondering is whether its acctually easier for us believers?
I look around my Christian surroundings, at my fellow churchgoers and at myself. and then I look at non-Christian communities, such as Buddists or sikh and it seems to me that we aren't doing any better then they are in living up to our standard.
Basically I'm not seeing that belief helps us live the sort of life that gets us into Heaven.

Now those societies are of course in grave violation of the first few commandments, but what about deists, should I actually be trying to convert them? Do we really need to worry about Athiest?

I tend toward a broad approach in response and then try to narrow in quite often. Thanks for your response, it helps to clarify. I do have thoughts about the questions in this post but will want to answer prayerfully. Quick answer would be that it isn't about doing good more than fulfilling the full law (only 1 man did that). Our God is JUST and requires a balanced scale. That demands that He use a balanced scale when He judges. If he judged like me (or you) could he be God? I remember a cartoon from when I was young (too long ago, yes there were televisions then). The cartoon died, his spirit body (almost invisible) drifted up to heaven and his "soul" was extracted. Then it was rung out, twisted at both ends in opposite directions, and some various quantities of black stuff (representing the bad) and some good stuff (representing the good) was extracted. That soul's white stuff outweighed the black and VOILÀ! The pearly gates were opened.

I'll respond with a (hopefully) better reply later. In the meantime, maybe you can bring Scripture that speak to the "by one man, sin entered the world, by 1 man, mankind's sin was redeemed"? The idea of man getting good enough (while rejecting God and His Son) is common to all religions except Christianity. We can't work our way (by adhering to the law) into heaven. Now, I've blabbed on at the mouth too much and really should keep my word to answer prayerfully rather than by my own thinking alone. Also, please ask the Lord to help. It doesn't have to be me who responds. Keeping asking, Keep knocking, Keep seeking... I have it on good authority that this WORKS.

Later then,
~Sparrow

 

[Bazz1040]

I know the bible has a lot to say on belief and I fully recognize that belief is important in life. but how important is it in regards to be let into heaven?

basically is it possible for gandi to have made it?
He was undoubtedly a very good man, but just as undoubtedly he wasn't a Christian.

Heaven was never promised to us by God. I challenge anyone to go to the Bible and show even one scripture that says we will live in Heaven.

 

[Sparkey]

First of thanks for what I am forced to consider the first proper reply.
...
what speaks most directly to the original question is :
And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?"
does this demand Christian belief? I don't see how it does.

When we look at Hebrews chapter 11 it concludes the matter. Here is a selected part (but the whole chapter is relevant and need be read). "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." [Hebrews 11:6 NKJV]

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Re: FAITH is the key -

"Can they all be doomed to Hell?"

Jesus says: "I AM THE WAY, the truth, and the life, and NO MAN comes to the father EXCEPT by Me."

Draw your own conclusions. your "Buddhist Monks" are on a wild goose chase for "knowledge" that will lead nowhere.

 

[Sparkey]

The other day at school I asked a fellow student an in-depth question and was given the reply, "I know that one, it's in one of my books..." I pondered the implication: Knowledge is the compilation of information? When did that happen? My dad used to instruct me about the difference between 'head knowledge' and understanding. Jesus spoke about the Word of Truth being a seed in the parable of the good soil. Some seed fell on hard ground (didn't take root), some near weeds (the concerns of life) and was choked, some on good soil that was acted upon. In much the same manner belief (faith, 'God-Trust') is important, even critical to salvation. "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." [Hebrews 11:6 NKJV]

Can knowledge save us or is that the same lie told in the Garden,

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.​

[Genesis 3:5-7 KJV]

God calls each man. It is us who respond. The challenge of reaching unto heaven is mitigated by His reaching toward usward. Our Trust of His action, His making it happen causes our joy and His. Many have pondered the words of James when considering Faith. He bluntly states that faith without acts is dead. The student who has 'book knowledge only' does not yet understand.

 

[Bazz1040]

Re: FAITH is the key -

"Can they all be doomed to Hell?"

Jesus says: "I AM THE WAY, the truth, and the life, and NO MAN comes to the father EXCEPT by Me."

Draw your own conclusions. your "Buddhist Monks" are on a wild goose chase for "knowledge" that will lead nowhere.

Scriptures does not support what you are hinting at. The Bible tells us that those who are or were spiritually blind, dead or alive will have their spiritual eyes opened. This will either take place after Jesus’ return during the millennium, if alive or if dead, at the second resurrection after the millennium.

 

[danjon]

Heaven was never promised to us by God. I challenge anyone to go to the Bible and show even one scripture that says we will live in Heaven.

True, entierly true.
Doesn't really answer the question though.
Just reread the entire thread and must admit that I am no closer to an answer then I was when I posted the OP.
My gut still tells me (and I am inclined to believe it) that God lets those he finds worthy into Heaven. Believing may indeed make us worthy, but its not the only thing that does.

 

[Alabaster]

Good intentions may leed to evil deeds but what about good deeds?
can you get into heaven on good deeds alone?

Good deeds get us nowhere.

Why waste one's time and effort trying to be the best person in hell?

We can only see the Kingdom of God through the acceptance of the free gift of life that Jesus Christ offers by the sacrifice of His body and blood in exchange for our sinful selves. No one is good but Him.

 

[Alabaster]

Heaven was never promised to us by God. I challenge anyone to go to the Bible and show even one scripture that says we will live in Heaven.

John 14:2-3 NLT
There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? 3 When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am.



It is only at the end of Judgment that this holy city of New Jerusalem comes down to Earth and God will then reside here with us. We will have been here for a thousand years prior.

Until the thousand years, the Bride will have been in heaven with Jesus, as each believer enters when he or she dies.

 

[Bazz1040]

True, entierly true.
Doesn't really answer the question though.
Just reread the entire thread and must admit that I am no closer to an answer then I was when I posted the OP.
My gut still tells me (and I am inclined to believe it) that God lets those he finds worthy into Heaven. Believing may indeed make us worthy, but its not the only thing that does.

Do you think it is wise to have a belief based on gut feeling or should it be on what is revealed the Bible?

Now, as far as faith is consern the Bible says that without it is impossible to please God. So yes, faith or belief is important as long as it in God/Jesus and His word.....our very salvation is dependent on it. For if one don't believe that Jesus came and died for us, and believe what He said then you have no hope beyond this life. But in addition to faith one needs to act in accordance to that faith......faith without works is dead.

Gandhi is just like another unbeliever that have died......he will be in the second resurrection.

 

[Alabaster]

My gut still tells me (and I am inclined to believe it) that God lets those he finds worthy into Heaven. Believing may indeed make us worthy, but its not the only thing that does.

Praise God, only Jesus Christ in us makes us worthy to see the Kingdom! Only believe and follow Jesus.

 

[Elijah674]

The Word (Christ) says that the ones of Rom. 2:14-15 will be saved. And they had never even heard of Christ as we have today. And us? No one can have all truth other than what God has given them. And one is saved at that stage of Rom. 8:14 of being OBEDIENTLY LED! (see Acts 5:32)

It matters not if they were even in the Rev. 17:1-5 Abomination of the Earth & died before they were given more truth. As long as they Obeyed by what had been given them!! Rom. 8:1. That Prophecy of Rev. 17:5 is for us today ones! (see Hosea 4:6) Compare John 10:16! These are Christ's SHEEP, just still ignorant. Yet, if Christ were in any of these Church's, what would the need be to CALL HIS OWN OUT???

So who is their 'unkown' leader? See Rev. 3:9

--Elijah