Just how important is belief in regards to heaven

[danjon]

: How can you presumably agree that you have to believe in Jesus to get to God, (in life?), but then say that it's not the way to get to heaven?

Sorry, apparantly I wasn't clear.
what I ment was that belief is vital to those that seek guidence. ( I am not a 100% on this but am willing to concede the point). I am not at all sure that belief is necessary to enter heaven. Belief is undoubtedly useful but surely other factors are more important.

I'm not pointing any finger at anyone - just stating what it actually does say in the bible. I'm definitely not seeing what I want to see.

Have YOU ever read the bible word for word, cover to cover? Have you ever prayed for direction. Do you WANT to?

Afraid you were, and if not then you're certainly doing so now.
Be careful the Devil is a sneaky bastard.

 

[coffeeelover]

Because I am ... 100% ...

I didn't ask how sure you are? I am also 100% sure I'm right too.

How are you sure?

 

[coffeeelover]

Because it is ...

Well then. You are right because you say you are right. So you think belief is the only thing necessary.

The only thing you really seem to believe in is yourself.

 

[lamplady]

I on the other hand don't find the Scripture to be very clear on this point.

The bible is CRYSTAL clear ... A blind man can see it ...

Belief may lead to all sorts of thing that again lead to heaven.

Only ONE way to God only ONE way to heaven ...

the question is how valuable is belief on its own.
and especially just how important is lack of belief in the final tally?

As important as loving God - can't have one without the other AND get to heaven ...

....

 

[theLords]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

all true, none of it relevant to the question.

It's extremely relevant because you keep saying Gandhi was good, but you are using the earthly definition to come to this conclusion. You are judging only the outside of this man without being able to see inside. Without being able to see inside his heart and mind you can't truly determine if he is truly good or not because you lack the sufficient evidence.

Of course he does, He may do it through Jesus but it still his standard.

But Jesus is the standard for what? Jesus is the door to what? Jesus is the door by which means one enters into the eternal Kingdom of the God of Abraham. If one desires to dwell within this paradise they must go through Christ Jesus.

Other religions have their own versions of paradise and require that you meet their specific requirements for their paradise. That's fine and dandy, but for those who desire to be with the God of Abraham the only way to Him is through Jesus Christ alone.

I afraid this brings us back to Stalin. If this was the case our earthly actions would have no value in our final judgement. That simply is not the case.

(Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I see) Your heart in these posts is expressing a mercy for the lost (those who don't know Jesus Christ) and the thought of Gandhi being tortured in hell is difficult for you. Are you able to extend this same mercy towards Stalin? If hell is a torture chamber with unspeakable darkness and Jesus extends forgiveness to Stalin don't you also want to show that same mercy to Stalin? The Bible says that "God wishes that no one should perish" and this is the heart of God, but God is a Gentlemen and He will not force His gift of Salvation on anyone.

 

[danjon]

I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you elaborate?

Yes it was a bit cryptic, what I ment was:
A humble man would understand that he is capable of both wicked and good. A humble man who struggled with good would be honored by God. The Bible says that "Blessed are those who hunger and search for righteousness sake for they shall be filled."

I don't see anything wrong with this statement. I would even be willing to think that this was a part of what is ment.

No one really knows except for God what Gandhi believed in his heart, so no one except for God can judge what was in his heart right? So only God gets to decide if Gandhi will enter into heaven based on His standard for allowing men into His kingdom.

Of course I don't know if Gandhi was truly a good man. But he was just an example. The question remains how heavly does belief factor into this standard?

It's not enough to follow Christ's example because Christ's teachings are extreme and designed so that you are either all in or all out. The Bible says that the good acts we do fall short of the glory of God. Imagine a heaven where everyone gets into it based on merit alone. One man can boast to another, "I have more good deeds than you!" The Bible teaches that we as humans are all equal in our sins in the eyes of God. Stalin murdered millions of people, but the Bible says that "If you so much as hate your brother you are guilty of murder." So what about a racist who hates people with dark skin? He like Stalin is also guilty of murdering millions of people. This is why the God of Abraham designed salvation in such a way that no one could boast that his own merit got him into Heaven. Everyone in the Kingdom of God will only be able to say "I am here because of the Grace and Love of the Lord Jesus"

Okey, I really don't agree with you here. Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
This clearly indicates that earthly action are a factor, As such there must be a value diffrence between various sins. killing 20 millions is not the same as stealing bread.
The other side must also be valid, good deeds must count in your favor. as such there must be a way to get into heaven on good deeds alone.

 

[lamplady]

Sorry, apparantly I wasn't clear.
what I ment was that belief is vital to those that seek guidence. ( I am not a 100% on this but am willing to concede the point). I am not at all sure that belief is necessary to enter heaven. Belief is undoubtedly useful but surely other factors are more important.

If you read and UNDERSTAND the bible it will tell you that beleif is very important to enter heaven ...

Afraid you were, and if not then you're certainly doing so now.
Be careful the Devil is a sneaky bastard.

:

I didn't ask how sure you are? I am also 100% sure I'm right too.

See correction ...

How are you sure?

100%

Well then. You are right because you say you are right. So you think belief is the only thing necessary.

Not correct on both counts. You need to repent, believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that he rose again. That he is the Son of God and that one day he will reclaim his children come judgement day. The he shall separate wheat from chaff. His children shall be with him in his Kingdom the rest will perish in the fiery furnace eternally...

The only thing you really seem to believe in is yourself.

No dear I read and understood the bible - more then that, the Holy Spirit is alive and he guides me - not just me but ALL believers ...




*Side note; computer is verrry slow today ... ...

 

[coffeeelover]

:





No dear I read and understood the bible - more then that, the Holy Spirit is alive and he guides me - not just me but ALL believers ...




*Side note; computer is verrry slow today ... ...

So only the people who believe what you believe have the holy spirit in them?

 

[lamplady]

So only the people who believe what you believe have the holy spirit in them?

Not quite,(lol). Only those who believe in the true and living Saviour Jesus Christ ...

 

[theLords]

Yes it was a bit cryptic, what I ment was:
A humble man would understand that he is capable of both wicked and good. A humble man who struggled with good would be honored by God. The Bible says that "Blessed are those who hunger and search for righteousness sake for they shall be filled."

Forgive me for my lack of understanding but I still don't grasp what you're asking.

How can a humble man struggle with good? I understand that a humble man would struggle with evil, but how does he struggle with good?

Of course I don't know if Gandhi was truly a good man. But he was just an example. The question remains how heavly does belief factor into this standard?

Here we must determine the standard of the definition of good before we can answer the question of what role belief plays into this. That's what I've been trying to do with my posts. I'm trying to lay a foundation so we can move towards satisfying this question you have. I'm not trying to give you the run a round. I am sincerely trying to answer your question to the best of my Biblical knowledge.

Okey, I really don't agree with you here. Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Yes, Jesus did say that, but the Bible also says that the "love of money is the root of all evil." Jesus does not have any issue with wealthy or material excess. He has a problem with the fact that many put their wealth and material excess before Him in their lives. Remember why Jesus spoke those words. A rich young man came to Him and asked Him how to get into heaven. The Lord told him to sell all his possessions and follow Him as His disciple. The young man went away sad because he had alot of poessesions. The Lord was basically asking him to sacrifice his life and become a poor, homeless follower of Christ. The account shows that the young man couldn't do it. He loved his possessions more then he loved God.

Now with that verse in context do you see things differently?

This clearly indicates that earthly action are a factor, As such there must be a value diffrence between various sins. killing 20 millions is not the same as stealing bread.
The other side must also be valid, good deeds must count in your favor. as such there must be a way to get into heaven on good deeds alone.

You are absolutely right in that our earthly actions count as a factor and the Bible says that we will be rewarded for our good works. Yet, this comes back to the need for us to establish the Biblical standard for good. The Bible says that we are justified through faith but that we have must have works to display the fruit of belief in our lives. I can simply say I believe that Jesus died for my sins and then continue to walk in my sin. I can say, "But I have faith! I'm justified!" The Bible shows that I must have "works from faith" to prove my faith. So when I believe that Christ died for my sins and then turn away from my sins and lead a holy life, I now have both the right balance of faith and works in my life.

In regards to sin. All sin is equal to all sin. There is no one sin that is greater then another. In the eyes of men you make a valid point, but the Lord says "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts, and My ways are higher than your ways." In the eyes of God, when the standard for good is the standard of Christ the Lord, all are sinners in need of repentance.

You say that you believe that good deeds can get you into heaven, and I am not criticizing your beliefs as you consider yourself to be a brother in the faith. What I'm simply showing you is that Scripture does not support the notion that good deeds can get one into heaven.

 

[danjon]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

some of this I answer in our other subthread so here I will just answer the things that are diffrent

But Jesus is the standard for what? Jesus is the door to what? Jesus is the door by which means one enters into the eternal Kingdom of the God of Abraham. If one desires to dwell within this paradise they must go through Christ Jesus.

The Bible is very clear Jesus is the light that guides us to heaven. thats pretty much it. he is not the standard, he is not the gate kepper, and he is not the judge.
to carry on the metaphore. then the road that Jesus has shown us does indeed lead to heaven. but if you manage to hack your there through the jungle then you are just as worthy as those that walk the road. this is at least what the bible is telling me.

Other religions have their own versions of paradise and require that you meet their specific requirements for their paradise. That's fine and dandy, but for those who desire to be with the God of Abraham the only way to Him is through Jesus Christ alone.

Ermmm... what???

(Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I see) Your heart in these posts is expressing a mercy for the lost (those who don't know Jesus Christ) and the thought of Gandhi being tortured in hell is difficult for you. Are you able to extend this same mercy towards Stalin? If hell is a torture chamber with unspeakable darkness and Jesus extends forgiveness to Stalin don't you also want to show that same mercy to Stalin? The Bible says that "God wishes that no one should perish" and this is the heart of God, but God is a Gentlemen and He will not force His gift of Salvation on anyone.

we may be getting a bit of point here, but anyway...
what your are bassically saying is that God can forgive everything except lack of belief?
or are you saying that its all or nothing? that either we all get into heaven or we all end up in hell?
I don't think that you actually think this to be true.

God may indeed forgive all sins but repenting is more than just saying your sorry.
Stalin repenting is not the same as Gandhi (or a generic good person) saying "oops, guess I got it wrong", I find the idea of God being able accept the former but not the later to be just wrong.

Personally (and I will admit I would be hard pressed to back this up from scripture) I think that what God judges is your state of being, that its not your actions but your intentions, your desires even possible your outlook on life that counts. as such I don't think that any single opinion can sway the judgement one way or the other. I just simply don't believe belief to be all that important.
Whether your a good person or not is must count.

 

[danjon]

Not quite,(lol!). Only those who believe in the true and living Saviour Jesus Christ ...

That just a round about way of saying yes.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

"So Gandi is being tortured in Hell for eternity and Hitler is in heaven with a Great Mansion walking on streets of Gold? People sometimes wonder what I mean when I say Christian theology often makes no sense."

And some folks apparently don't read English with understanding.

What I said was that IF Ghandi DIDN'T become a Christian, and place his faith in Jesus for his salvation - he's TOAST

And IF Hitler DID BEcome a Christian, and placed his faith in Jesus, he'd be in heaven.

Unfortunately, the evidence is that apparently NEITHER of 'em Trusted Jesus, and so they both perished.

Their "works" in both cases mean nothing.

 

[coffeeelover]

Not quite,(lol!). Only those who believe in the true and living Saviour Jesus Christ ...

like Mormons. They believe that. So as long as someone believes Jesus died for them they are saved. That's all that is required.

JW's believe it too so that means they get to heaven too.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Creative - but not what I said

What you are basically saying is that we can sin as much as we like as long we accept the fact that God through Jesus can save us.

But of course I never said that, did I??

There's a lot more to "Christianity" than "accepting the fact that God through Jesus can save us." The devil "accepts that fact" easily - and it scares him.

It's "Faith" that does the job, not "Mental ascent". And one who IS a Christian - will be constrained by the Holy Spirit from living in willful sin. That's in Romans the first 8 chapters - why don't you see what it says???

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

"The Bible is very clear Jesus is the light that guides us to heaven."

Actually the Bible doesn't say anything like that AT ALL.

Jesus didn't come to SHOW the "way" - He came to BE the Way. He IS the "Way" (the means of conveyance).

When we're IN Him, and covered by His Righteousness, we're good to go.

If we're NOT "In Him" - then whatever ELSE we do doesn't mean spit.

 

[coffeeelover]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

"The Bible is very clear Jesus is the light that guides us to heaven."

Actually the Bible doesn't say anything like that AT ALL.

Jesus didn't come to SHOW the "way" - He came to BE the Way. He IS the "Way" (the means of conveyance).

When we're IN Him, and covered by His Righteousness, we're good to go.

If we're NOT "In Him" - then whatever ELSE we do doesn't mean spit.

So is being in Jesus and covered by righteousness the same as believing in Jesus?

 

[theLords]

Re: "Good" doesn't "get 'er done.

The Bible is very clear Jesus is the light that guides us to heaven. thats pretty much it. he is not the standard, he is not the gate kepper, and he is not the judge.
to carry on the metaphore. then the road that Jesus has shown us does indeed lead to heaven. but if you manage to hack your there through the jungle then you are just as worthy as those that walk the road. this is at least what the bible is telling me.

Jesus says that, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father except by me." Here is clearly distinguishes that He is the gate keeper. The Bible further states that Jesus is the Judge, "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

Forgive me, but I am also not understanding your jungle metaphor. I think you were typing too fast ;)

Ermmm... what???

Ah, I'm blessed to see that you have eyes that see. What I meant in this is that the Bible makes it explicitly clear that there are 2 kingdoms. The kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan. Satan desires that all men be deceived and be robbed of knowing Christ. Misery loves company right? So is there truly only one Heaven? Yes. But in reality there are many heavens with various differing aspects to them that contradict the Heaven of God. So with that said, would it be safe to say that those other religions aren't truly offering paradise? That they are Satan's "paradise" of the lusts of the flesh? After all, there are many earthly men who look at the Paradise of God and say they would prefer to go to a paradise where sexual misconduct is rampant. Sexual immorality has no place in the Kingdom of God. So some men reject the Paradise of Christ in favor of the "paradise" (hell) of Satan. Does that make sense to you?

we may be getting a bit of point here, but anyway...
what your are bassically saying is that God can forgive everything except lack of belief?
or are you saying that its all or nothing? that either we all get into heaven or we all end up in hell?
I don't think that you actually think this to be true.

Bear with me. There's a reason for my madness ;)

God will forgive every single sin except for the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

No, I'm not saying that we all enter into heave or hell. I'm saying that the only way to enter into the God of Abraham's heaven is by means of Jesus Christ.

I think that if we knew who was in Heaven and who wasn't we would all be greatly surprised.

God may indeed forgive all sins but repenting is more than just saying your sorry.
Stalin repenting is not the same as Gandhi (or a generic good person) saying "oops, guess I got it wrong", I find the idea of God being able accept the former but not the later to be just wrong.

You are absolutely right about repentance.

If Gandhi repented and Stalin repented and called on the Lord Jesus Christ to cover their sins they would both be allowed into heaven.

Now, there is some evidence that shows that this may well be the case for Gandhi, and that it is probably not the case for Stalin.

Either way, I won't judge and say that either one is in heaven or hell, as it is walking in dangerous territory.

Personally (and I will admit I would be hard pressed to back this up from scripture) I think that what God judges is your state of being, that its not your actions but your intentions, your desires even possible your outlook on life that counts. as such I don't think that any single opinion can sway the judgement one way or the other. I just simply don't believe belief to be all that important.
Whether your a good person or not is must count.

I understand what you are saying and your walk with God is your own intimate relationship with Him. If you continue in your walk with the Lord you will grow in maturity and who knows what you will believe in 5, 10, 15, or 20 years.

What I believe now is not what I believed 5 years ago. My sincerity to live a pure life before God is what has enabled me to do everything I can to allow Him to "mold me into the image of Christ," so that Christ is reflected in my thoughts, heart, speech, and actions.

Continue to grow in the love of God.

Keep hungering and thirsting for righteousness and you will be filled.

 

[lamplady]

like Mormons. They believe that. So as long as someone believes Jesus died for them they are saved. That's all that is required.

Re: Page one post, (amended) :

You have to REPENT, Be BORN AGAIN, BELIEVE with ALL of your HEART and all of your SOUL in the Lord JESUS, that he is the TRUTH that he died on the cross for our sins sake then rose again, that he is the SON of God, that he is the ONLY way to get to GOD ALMIGHTY, to be with him in heaven and have ETERNAL life.

Not hard ...

 

[coffeeelover]

Re: Page one post, (amended) :

You have to REPENT, Be BORN AGAIN, BELIEVE with ALL of your HEART and all of your SOUL in the Lord JESUS, that he died on the cross for our sins sake then rose again, that he is the SON of God, that he is the ONLY way to get to GOD ALMIGHTY, to be with him in heaven.

Not hard ...

Exactly That is what Mormons and JW believe. So they get to heaven. So many people seem to think they don't.