Bible Study Just What ARE Pentecostal "Tongues"?

[lecoop]

Tongues are not for today in any shape or form for any reason whatsoever.

CORRECT! 'Tongues' ceased long ago ...just as the scriptures said they would. Anything that comes out of the mouths of Christians today other than a language they understand is ...well ...not scriptural.
Hmmm. "Forbid not to speak in tongues..."

If it were possible, I'm sure that Paul would be squirming in his grave by what the Pentecostal Church has done with his texts on 'tongue-speaking'. That is, they have built a doctrine around a MISINTERPRETATION of these scriptures! Not only that, they refuse to see the plain truth when it's presented to them since the 'warm and fuzzies' that they experience with this sham is too great to give up. It's a perversion and is almost as compelling - dare I say it - as sexu ...no, I daren't say it.[/color]

 

[lecoop]

Excuse me, I know that I am new here...And I probably will cause some heavy resistance to my opinions....So, let me assure you that I am not trying to cause too many problems....Just comparing experiences....

Someone has described Tongues as a "bypassing the brain' and allowing the HS to control the mouth/speech processes without thinking....

I have a question....What is the difference between that and channeling? Christians know that channeling is of the devil as it allows a demon to control a person to voice the demons thoughts....

There is one HUGE difference: the source of what is coming to the human spirit, and then out of the mouth. In a believer that has received the baptism with the HS, the human spirit has been changed and has God inside! What comes out of the spirit of the believer, then is the Holy Spirit giving the utterance. What comes out of an unbeliever when they "channel" is from devils. Pretty simple, really.

We know that the bible says that the devil will attempt to deciieve the very elect any way he can.... What is to prevent the devil from using this tongues from deception?
Many believers that have developed their spiritual man by speaking much in tongues, will have discerment, and will immediately recognize the imposter!

Let me tell you all about my God...My God is the God of Order. He says in the bible that all things need to be done in order...The experience of Speaking in Tongues is more chaos than order....You don't know what you are saying, someone else has to interpret what you are saying....that is chaos, folks...that is not truely 'speaking in tongues" as the bible describes it.
Not chaos, but scripture. You are just overlooking it. If chaos, why then is one of the gifts of the spirit, "interpretation of tongues?"

The only experience that satisfy the meaning of "speaking in tongues" is to be able to listen to a forgien language. I have seen that happen and know that this sort of thing happens today quietly in various places around the world. And when a person speaks in tongues, the unbeleiver can see and hear the foreign language and truely praise God for the message. This experience of speaking a foreign language satisfys all the requirements the bible describes as 'speaking in tongues'.

Oh oh! YOu forgot what Paul said: "no man understands!" When someone hears in their own language, when tongues are spoken, it is an added miracle of hearing. When people speak in tongues, "no man understands."

Otherwise, all you are doing is opening yourself up to the devil to move you away from God...
How can speaking out what the Holy Spirit says in our spirit move us away from God? Did you not read, "as the [Holy] Spirit gives the utterance? On the other hand, Paul said that we are energized or edified.

Ok, now, if'n you all will wait for me to put on my asbestos underwear, I will be ready for all the flames that are sure to be coming my way.... :-D

 

[lecoop]

I am gonna pick on mutzrein because ...well ..his post is after mine and there is no answer to my question....:-D

Given all the theological evidence of tongues, what is the difference between channeling and the 'gift of tongues"?

The reason that I ask is because I see no difference between the two experiences, except samantics...

Therefore, to avoid being used of the devil, I have to learn the purpose of tongues...

Mutzrein has given a fairly excellent review and included was this little diddly-

Paul explains this communication as a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers.

IOWs, tongues is for evangelism....The purpose was to spread the gospel and tell of Jesus and His redemptive acts. A very practical and useful tool in the spreading the gospel to various gentils...

Therefore, I conclude that tongues is another name for speaking a foriegn language. And all the biblical texts pertaining to it fit very comfortably in that interpretation...

......So, Mutzrein, I didn't pick on ya too hard, did I? :-D

Sorry, you forgot, "no man understands!" If one traveled the world, then surely someone would understand, if one was speaking an earthly language. However, Paul says, "no man undersands!" Why" Why does no man understand? Because the Holy Spirit is making up "jibberish." At least, that is what it sounds like to listeners. However, it does not have to be any kind of language to do what the HS wants done! You see, if God the HS is creating the prayer, and God the father is listening, He know what was said, and will answer! God the Father is the only one that needs to know, since He is the one that answers prayer.
Coop

 

[mutzrein]

No – not at all – if ya think that is pickin on me, then try grabbing a decent chunk. I respond better when the flesh is buffeted.

:-D

Hmmmm...Grab a decent chunk, eh? With the reviews of the Oscars behind me, this may have connotations that I would prefer not to indulge in... :-D


[quote:c19d5]Whether it is the deception that allows a person to think they have a certain spiritual gift when they haven’t, or whether it is the deception that allows a person to think that another has not got the gift, when in fact they do, is still deception. And Satan has achieved another objective.

And that is why WE must remain diligent about our relationship with God.

Thank you for the conversation...perhaps again sometime [/quote:c19d5]

Sure thing . . . and look forward to it. Was there anything left unanswered or is there now no need.

Oscars? No time sorry so I guess I needn't stress myself about it. Oh - good to see BTW that little ole NZ picked up a few more.

 

[Admiral]

There is one HUGE difference: the source of what is coming to the human spirit, and then out of the mouth. In a believer that has received the baptism with the HS, the human spirit has been changed and has God inside! What comes out of the spirit of the believer, then is the Holy Spirit giving the utterance. What comes out of an unbeliever when they "channel" is from devils. Pretty simple, really.

But it is NOT....If you are the person deciding, and there are supernatural powers far greater than yourown, how do you know which is right? If you are deciding by experience, you could not tell, as the evil power mimics the good power. You could not tell which power had ahold of you...And evil, being what it is, will always mirror good until a time comes for a small deviation from good...And then there is another deviation and another and another and another.... until you are justifying the act of spitting in God's face and bludgeoning Him and crucifying Him.

We know that the bible says that the devil will attempt to deciieve the very elect any way he can.... What is to prevent the devil from using this tongues from deception?
Many believers that have developed their spiritual man by speaking much in tongues, will have discerment, and will immediately recognize the imposter!

This is extreemly dangerous...King Saul deviated from God's plan and kept deviating until he was out to kill David....


[quote:feab1]The only experience that satisfy the meaning of "speaking in tongues" is to be able to listen to a forgien language. I have seen that happen and know that this sort of thing happens today quietly in various places around the world. And when a person speaks in tongues, the unbeleiver can see and hear the foreign language and truely praise God for the message. This experience of speaking a foreign language satisfys all the requirements the bible describes as 'speaking in tongues'.

Oh oh! YOu forgot what Paul said: "no man understands!" When someone hears in their own language, when tongues are spoken, it is an added miracle of hearing. When people speak in tongues, "no man understands."

[/quote:feab1]


No, I didn't forget it...

If you substitute the words " speaks a foriegn language" for 'speaks in tongues' , then the meaning becomes clear. Anyone who has had the experience of being a foriegner in a strange land knows that when he sings familiar bible songs in a strange church sings to God.

It is solid reasoning backed up by biblical evidence to support it. It is not sensational but solid boring reasonable evidence.

 

[Free]

The biblical evidence supports speaking in tongues in two different ways: 1. being unknown to the speaker, and 2. being unknown to both the speaker and the listeners.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Tongues are not for today in any shape or form for any reason whatsoever.

I can say with confidence then, that you will never be blessed with the benefits of tongues! That is, as long as you hold this beleif. Oh, and "forbid not to speak in tongues!"

Coop

Um ...just what ARE the benefits of 'tongues', coop? Are you saying that there is more benefit in uttering whatever it is that you utter (which neither you NOR God can understand) than in uttering words that CAN be understood by both parties? You DO realize that there is no logic to this, don't you? Then again, if one has ever witnessed the shananigans of some Pentecostal churches that also (in addition to 'tongues) incorporate 'slaying in the spirit', 'holy laughter', and other 'oddities', then 'logic' or even 'scripture' is the least identifiable factor involved.

By the way, coop, "forbid not to speak in tongues" was not aimed by Paul at the Pentecostal Church. Just wanted you to know that.

 

[SputnikBoy]

The biblical evidence supports speaking in tongues in two different ways: 1. being unknown to the speaker, and 2. being unknown to both the speaker and the listeners.

Hate to burst your bubble but the Greek 'glossa' (meaning 'foreign' but WORLDLY language) is used in ALL instances of 'tongue-speaking' as under discussion here. 'Glossa' simply means 'foreign language' EVERY time. Check out your concordance.

When the 'tongue' is 'unknown to the speaker' it is then a manifestation of the Holy Spirit used in accordance with 'the rules'. The 'rules' are that the message (gospel) will be understood by SOMEONE present, and also that an interpretation be given so that others are not left in the dark as to what the message was. In other words, the church is edified as a result.

When a 'tongue' is unknown to both the speaker and the listener/s, then this should arouse suspicion. This means that a reprimand is in order as illustrated by Paul to the Church of Corinth ...NOT the model church, I quickly add. For the Pentecostal Church to ascribe its questionable practices to the questionable practices of the Church of Corinth is utter lunacy!

Incidentally, as a side, after 1 Corinthians we NEVER hear about 'tongues' again! Coincidence or did they die a natural death?

 

[Solo]

The biblical evidence supports speaking in tongues in two different ways: 1. being unknown to the speaker, and 2. being unknown to both the speaker and the listeners.

Hate to burst your bubble but the Greek 'glossa' (meaning 'foreign' but WORLDLY language) is used in ALL instances of 'tongue-speaking' as under discussion here. 'Glossa' simply means 'foreign language' EVERY time. Check out your concordance.

When the 'tongue' is 'unknown to the speaker' it is then a manifestation of the Holy Spirit used in accordance with 'the rules'. The 'rules' are that the message (gospel) will be understood by SOMEONE present, and also that an interpretation be given so that others are not left in the dark as to what the message was. In other words, the church is edified as a result.

When a 'tongue' is unknown to both the speaker and the listener/s, then this should arouse suspicion. This means that a reprimand is in order as illustrated by Paul to the Church of Corinth ...NOT the model church, I quickly add. For the Pentecostal Church to ascribe its questionable practices to the questionable practices of the Church of Corinth is utter lunacy!

Incidentally, as a side, after 1 Corinthians we NEVER hear about 'tongues' again! Coincidence or did they die a natural death?

The Greek word tranlated tongue is γλωσση transliterated Glossa and is defined as:

• 1. the tongue, a member of the body,
  an organ of speech.
  
  2. a tongue[list:9ec75]a. the language or dialect used
  by a particular people distinct from
  that of other nations

[/list:u:9ec75]

Another Greek word translated tongue is διαλεκτω transliterated Dialektos and is defined as:

• 1. conversation, speech, discourse, language.
  
  2. the tongue or language peculiar to any people.

The Greek word γλωσση - Glossa is used in the New Testament 50 times. Below are the 47 verses that use the word γλωσση - Glossa. The Greek word διαλεκτω - Dialektos is used in the New Testament 6 times and is translated language 1 time. Below are the 6 verses that use the word .

γλωσση - Glossa

Mark 7:33 And he took him aside from the multitude, and put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue;

Mark 7:35 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Luke 1:64 And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Romans 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1 Corinthians 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

διαλεκτω - Dialektos

Acts 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Acts 21:40 And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying,

Acts 22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)

Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

 

[lecoop]

There is one HUGE difference: the source of what is coming to the human spirit, and then out of the mouth. In a believer that has received the baptism with the HS, the human spirit has been changed and has God inside! What comes out of the spirit of the believer, then is the Holy Spirit giving the utterance. What comes out of an unbeliever when they "channel" is from devils. Pretty simple, really.

But it is NOT....If you are the person deciding, and there are supernatural powers far greater than yourown, how do you know which is right? If you are deciding by experience, you could not tell, as the evil power mimics the good power. You could not tell which power had ahold of you...And evil, being what it is, will always mirror good until a time comes for a small deviation from good...And then there is another deviation and another and another and another.... until you are justifying the act of spitting in God's face and bludgeoning Him and crucifying Him.

I am sorry that you find these matter all gray, while I see them as black and white. My father was a spiritualist for most of my young life. I was taken to seances numerous times. However, I was born again when I was 7, so I did have some protection. I grew up seeing both the "beautiful side of evil," and the goodness of God. I have seen both sides, and I can tell you that there is a VAST difference.

I received the baptism with the Holy Spirit when I was 20, and have done much praying in tongues ever since - 40 years worth. I can tell you that the more one prays in tongues, the more in tune the spirit is to God. I have been in services where the Holy Spirit was moving, and have seen an evil spirit start to manifest. I looked around to see if others recognized what was happening. I think many did - some did not. It was just like someone threw cold water on the service. I asked several people after the service what they noticed. Some recognized the enemy immediately, as I did, while others did not recognize him at all. You see, it is not "me deciding." It is the Holy Spirit in me. If you have a close relationship with Him, you will immediately know and recognize the evil. It is that simple. However, without the baptism with the Holy Spirit, it would be much more difficult to tell. It is your choice to receive it or not.

We know that the bible says that the devil will attempt to deciieve the very elect any way he can.... What is to prevent the devil from using this tongues from deception?
Many believers that have developed their spiritual man by speaking much in tongues, will have discerment, and will immediately recognize the imposter!

Again, we are speaking of discerment. Anyone that spends any real time speaking in tongues (I'm not talking of 5 minutes a day for a week, but perhaps an hour a day for a year) will be sensitive to things in the spirit. You see, when someone speaks in tongues, they open up a new way to speak, from the spirit man straight to the mouth. When one does this very much, they learn to recognize where the Holy Spirit speaks from, since it is HE that gives the utterance. Again, if you don't speak in tongues, you will just forfit the benefits.


This is extreemly dangerous...King Saul deviated from God's plan and kept deviating until he was out to kill David....

The truth is, the more one speaks in tongues, the more likely he or she is to hear the inner witness of the HS, and stay on course! What many don't realize is that a prayer in tongues is meant to be answered, just as any other prayer. But what are the prayers? Usually when one starts praying in tongues a lot, the HS will go after the first roadblock in the believer's life that is keeping them from the next step in God. This is the most important prayer that a believer could pray, but the one they are least likely to pray out in their learned language. Is it any wonder then, that God gave us such a wonderful prayer tool?

[quote:340e3]The only experience that satisfy the meaning of "speaking in tongues" is to be able to listen to a forgien language. I have seen that happen and know that this sort of thing happens today quietly in various places around the world. And when a person speaks in tongues, the unbeleiver can see and hear the foreign language and truely praise God for the message. This experience of speaking a foreign language satisfys all the requirements the bible describes as 'speaking in tongues'.

Oh oh! YOu forgot what Paul said: "no man understands!" When someone hears in their own language, when tongues are spoken, it is an added miracle of hearing. When people speak in tongues, "no man understands."

No, I didn't forget it...

If you substitute the words " speaks a foriegn language" for 'speaks in tongues' , then the meaning becomes clear. Anyone who has had the experience of being a foriegner in a strange land knows that when he sings familiar bible songs in a strange church sings to God.

This sounds good, but it just doesn't fit Paul's discriptions in 1 Cor. 14. For instance, "no man understands." Or how about "my understanding is unfruitful." You know, Paul was not nearly as concerned as you are that the devil might sneak in and trick a "tongue talker." On the other hand, he said, "what is it then? I will pray with the spirit..." This is speaking of praying in tongues. Paul is saying that because his understanding is unfruitful when he prays in tongues, he will continue to do so, but will also pray in his learned language where his understanding is fruitful. In other words, Paul is telling us to do both: pray in tongues and pray in English.

It is solid reasoning backed up by biblical evidence to support it. It is not sensational but solid boring reasonable evidence.

[/quote:340e3]

I think you will have to tear out some of your verses.

 

[lecoop]

The biblical evidence supports speaking in tongues in two different ways: 1. being unknown to the speaker, and 2. being unknown to both the speaker and the listeners.

Well put!

 

[lecoop]

Tongues are not for today in any shape or form for any reason whatsoever.

I can say with confidence then, that you will never be blessed with the benefits of tongues! That is, as long as you hold this beleif. Oh, and "forbid not to speak in tongues!"

Coop

Um ...just what ARE the benefits of 'tongues', coop? Are you saying that there is more benefit in uttering whatever it is that you utter (which neither you NOR God can understand) than in uttering words that CAN be understood by both parties? You DO realize that there is no logic to this, don't you? Then again, if one has ever witnessed the shananigans of some Pentecostal churches that also (in addition to 'tongues) incorporate 'slaying in the spirit', 'holy laughter', and other 'oddities', then 'logic' or even 'scripture' is the least identifiable factor involved.

By the way, coop, "forbid not to speak in tongues" was not aimed by Paul at the Pentecostal Church. Just wanted you to know that.

SputnikBoy, if you decide not to believe God's word, that is your choice. I choose to believe it. The first benefit of tongues is that one is obedient to the command, and receives the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The tongues that comes with it is like frosting on the cake, or gravy on the potatos.

Did you not read, "he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God:...?" Did you not read, "they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.?" Of course God can understand, for it is He that gives the utterance. I am sorry if you have never laughed in the Spirit. It is one of the most enjoyable experiences I have ever lived through. Why do you think so lightly of making light of the Holy Spirit and what HE does? This is truly something that is dangerous! Btw, I was aiming the "forbid not," at you.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

The biblical evidence supports speaking in tongues in two different ways: 1. being unknown to the speaker, and 2. being unknown to both the speaker and the listeners.

Hate to burst your bubble but the Greek 'glossa' (meaning 'foreign' but WORLDLY language) is used in ALL instances of 'tongue-speaking' as under discussion here. 'Glossa' simply means 'foreign language' EVERY time. Check out your concordance.

When the 'tongue' is 'unknown to the speaker' it is then a manifestation of the Holy Spirit used in accordance with 'the rules'. The 'rules' are that the message (gospel) will be understood by SOMEONE present, and also that an interpretation be given so that others are not left in the dark as to what the message was. In other words, the church is edified as a result.

When a 'tongue' is unknown to both the speaker and the listener/s, then this should arouse suspicion. This means that a reprimand is in order as illustrated by Paul to the Church of Corinth ...NOT the model church, I quickly add. For the Pentecostal Church to ascribe its questionable practices to the questionable practices of the Church of Corinth is utter lunacy!

Incidentally, as a side, after 1 Corinthians we NEVER hear about 'tongues' again! Coincidence or did they die a natural death?

You just really do not understand what Paul wrote about tongues in 1 Cor. 14.

Coop

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Brad - I know you are not trying to be a wise guy. For what it’s worth in some respects you are probably wise without even trying

Flattery will get you everywhere

I think the problem that many naysayers have with tongues is that is commonly thought of in the context of Pentecostalism

It pretty much has to be. Tongues, more than anything else, is what has always identified the Pentecostal movement.

Now I have had pentecostal associations from a young age just as I have had association with many others you could call Christian but not of the Pentecostal stream

Me too.

What I discovered is that there are those who are devout followers of Christ in both camps. Now while I view tongues as a spiritual gift in the context of the body of Christ I cannot deny that there are also those in the body who don’t see tongues in the same light as me. And of course there are those who recognise the validity of tongues but have never spoken in tongues

Those are tortured souls, generally, who see themselves as still unsaved or a type of "2nd class citizen" in the kingdom of God - saved but without the "2nd experience". Ironically, many of those are finer Christians than the "Spirit baptized" ones, though they see themselves in a negative light as not having "attained" some level of spiritual empowerment. (as if those who experience what passes for speaking in tongues today have more "power" :roll

Sadly though, it is in the Pentecostal stream that I see the excesses. The ‘name it - claim it’ brigade seem to want to do anything and everything ‘in the name of Jesus’ and if you haven’t got the ‘faith’ to believe it, then you are made to feel inferior by virtue of not receiving what they say God has for you. And that includes speaking in tongues – which many see as THE sign of salvation. I tell you it is real sad witnessing these ‘Christians’ who have created for themselves levels of spirituality according to the gift or gifts they believe they have had the ‘faith’ to receive

I referenced the same point before I read your last paragraph

Frankly, it sickens me because it has nothing to do with the righteousness that comes by faith

In any case – getting back to discernment. Who has discernment? Not many unfortunately. Of course there are many in our churches (and forums) who believe they have all sorts of spiritual gifts, but to me where the fruit of the Spirit is not evident, I have to look closely at the tree. And if the manifestation of the so called gift edifies the flesh rather than edifying the body of Christ, then again I have to look closely at the source of the ‘gift.’

Why question the source of the gift when it's not evident that it's a true gift? Let them provide evidence that the supernatural is actually occuring in their midst first - that these "gifts" are real. There's no need to go any farther than that.

 

[Free]

The biblical evidence supports speaking in tongues in two different ways: 1. being unknown to the speaker, and 2. being unknown to both the speaker and the listeners.

Hate to burst your bubble but the Greek 'glossa' (meaning 'foreign' but WORLDLY language) is used in ALL instances of 'tongue-speaking' as under discussion here. 'Glossa' simply means 'foreign language' EVERY time. Check out your concordance.

When the 'tongue' is 'unknown to the speaker' it is then a manifestation of the Holy Spirit used in accordance with 'the rules'. The 'rules' are that the message (gospel) will be understood by SOMEONE present, and also that an interpretation be given so that others are not left in the dark as to what the message was. In other words, the church is edified as a result.

When a 'tongue' is unknown to both the speaker and the listener/s, then this should arouse suspicion. This means that a reprimand is in order as illustrated by Paul to the Church of Corinth ...NOT the model church, I quickly add. For the Pentecostal Church to ascribe its questionable practices to the questionable practices of the Church of Corinth is utter lunacy!

Firstly, the meaning of glossa is really of little importance to this discussion. A foreign language is a foreign language whether it is worldly or heavenly, whether it is unknown to the speaker only, the listeners only, or both.

Secondly, in Acts 2 it is clear that "tongues" was an unknown language to the speakers. But this is also the case in 1 Cor. 14. where it is unknown to the listeners. This is clear since 1 Cor. 14 is about the gifts of prophecy and tongues and that tongues are a sign for the unbeliever.

Thirdly, Paul's reprimand was that the church at Corinth "do things decently and in order," (vs 40) not that they stop speaking in tonuges (vs 39). I agree that many/most modern Pentecostal/Charasmatic churches do things after the model in 1 Cor. 14, but that does not make tongues wrong.

Incidentally, as a side, after 1 Corinthians we NEVER hear about 'tongues' again! Coincidence or did they die a natural death?

That is very bad reasoning, although you have not been the first to use it. By the same line of reasoning, I could argue that since Christ never mentioned anything about homosexuality that he thought it was okay. You may want to argue that since Paul spoke against it that Jesus would therefore also have been against it. And you would be right. But then this is just the reverse of the argument you are using.

Do you see the error in your argument? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[SputnikBoy]

The biblical evidence supports speaking in tongues in two different ways: 1. being unknown to the speaker, and 2. being unknown to both the speaker and the listeners.

Hate to burst your bubble but the Greek 'glossa' (meaning 'foreign' but WORLDLY language) is used in ALL instances of 'tongue-speaking' as under discussion here. 'Glossa' simply means 'foreign language' EVERY time. Check out your concordance.

When the 'tongue' is 'unknown to the speaker' it is then a manifestation of the Holy Spirit used in accordance with 'the rules'. The 'rules' are that the message (gospel) will be understood by SOMEONE present, and also that an interpretation be given so that others are not left in the dark as to what the message was. In other words, the church is edified as a result.

When a 'tongue' is unknown to both the speaker and the listener/s, then this should arouse suspicion. This means that a reprimand is in order as illustrated by Paul to the Church of Corinth ...NOT the model church, I quickly add. For the Pentecostal Church to ascribe its questionable practices to the questionable practices of the Church of Corinth is utter lunacy!

Incidentally, as a side, after 1 Corinthians we NEVER hear about 'tongues' again! Coincidence or did they die a natural death?

You just really do not understand what Paul wrote about tongues in 1 Cor. 14.

Coop

On the contrary, Coop, I DO understand. You guys are getting 'the warm and fuzzies' (and THAT'S ALL) from a practice that is totally unscriptural. In your own way you even belittle others who recognize the nonsense behind this practice. You tell them that they have not yet experienced 'this closeness to God' that you have experienced. And this ("you're obviously an inferior Christian to me because you don't speak in tongues") is how the Pentecostal Church has managed to dupe so many gullible people into this and other sham practices. People SO MUCH want to belong that they will do almost anything to accomplish that end. The 'Pentecostal tongues' phenomenon can be explained away by psychological reasoning. The Holy Spirit has no part in this. True!

 

[Free]

The 'Pentecostal tongues' phenomenon can be explained away by psychological reasoning. True!

So can belief in God...

 

[SputnikBoy]

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Thanks for the texts you gave, Solo, and thanks for having proven my point. No scriptural texts pertaining to one's 'speaking in tongues' exist after 1 Corinthians. Those you gave - listed above - have nothing to do with this topic. The reason we hear nothing about 'tongues' after 1 Corinthians? Well, they served a temporary purpose and died ...just as the scriptures said they would.

 

[SputnikBoy]

The 'Pentecostal tongues' phenomenon can be explained away by psychological reasoning. True!

So can belief in God...

That is true also.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Incidentally, as a side, after 1 Corinthians we NEVER hear about 'tongues' again! Coincidence or did they die a natural death?[/color]

That is very bad reasoning, although you have not been the first to use it. By the same line of reasoning, I could argue that since Christ never mentioned anything about homosexuality that he thought it was okay. You may want to argue that since Paul spoke against it that Jesus would therefore also have been against it. And you would be right. But then this is just the reverse of the argument you are using.

Do you see the error in your argument? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I don't see it as 'an error' in my argument pertaining to 'tongues', but I do acknowledge that absence of evidence need not necessarily mean evidence of absence. We ARE talking here about a phenomenon that has become a worldwide 'salvation issue' for many Pentecostals. For others who are not quite as extreme they still regard 'speaking in tongues' as EVIDENCE of an infilling of the Holy Spirit.

This implies that 1. 'tongue speakers' are 'closer to God', and 2. 'non-tongue speakers' are NOT 'close to God'. In other words, it creates a climate of 'us and them' and I would reject this practice based on that fact alone. It would also necessitate that 'the tongue-speaker' be a model or exemplorary Christian based on their 'closeness to God'. This is OFTEN not the case as I can attest!! 'Tongue-speaking' CANNOT be of the Holy Spirit.

So, yes, I believe that the absence in the scriptures of a phenomeonon that has swept through contemporary Christianity as 'tongues' have done is VERY significant indeed!