Bible Study Just What ARE Pentecostal "Tongues"?

[Admiral]

As an Add-on to SputnikBoy post,

It has been my experience with known pentecoastals, that they are very friendly, but tend to be a bit shallow theologically...
Thier main discussions seem limited to God's love and speaking in tongues.

I am not attempting to desparage the pentecoastal, but rather to relate my experience with them... They are great with bringing people in to a seeking church, but when the seekers are looking for something more, the pentcoastal will loose those individuals...

And my experiences are by no means universal...

 

[lecoop]

SputnikBoy said

I don't see it as 'an error' in my argument pertaining to 'tongues', but I do acknowledge that absence of evidence need not necessarily mean evidence of absence. We ARE talking here about a phenomenon that has become a worldwide 'salvation issue' for many Pentecostals. For others who are not quite as extreme they still regard 'speaking in tongues' as EVIDENCE of an infilling of the Holy Spirit.

This implies that 1. 'tongue speakers' are 'closer to God', and 2. 'non-tongue speakers' are NOT 'close to God'. In other words, it creates a climate of 'us and them' and I would reject this practice based on that fact alone. It would also necessitate that 'the tongue-speaker' be a model or exemplorary Christian based on their 'closeness to God'. This is OFTEN not the case as I can attest!! 'Tongue-speaking' CANNOT be of the Holy Spirit.
So, yes, I believe that the absence in the scriptures of a phenomeonon that has swept through contemporary Christianity as 'tongues' have done is VERY significant indeed!

Yes, we do regard tongues as the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. And why not? Peter did. And we see this evidence in Acts 2, 10, and 19. And in the life of Paul himself. Probably in Acts 8 also. It is scriptural. It is interesting, but it is only those that have not received the baptism with the HS, that say we are closer to God, or we make them to be second class Christians. I have never heard any penticostal say any thing like this. All I tell people is that they should receive the baptism with the HS, as it is a promise of God.

Please tell me, why do you say that tongues speaking CANNOT be the Holy Spirit? Did you not read that the Holy Ghost gave them utterance? What do you mean, an "absence in the scriptures?" Your only problem is that you just don't believe what you read.

Coop

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Yes, we do regard tongues as the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, please explain how tongues is the evidence of anything unless these tongues are proven to be legitimate languages the speaker did not know a few seconds before? Why do you assume that if a person blurts out a few incomprehensible phrases what you are witnessing is the same miracle that was reported in Acts? You really WANT to believe that's what it is don't you? That's why you assume. I have seen people coached into displaying this manifestation in Pentecostal/Charismatic meetings. If you say "hallelujah", over and over again your words will usually become garbled - and this happens and everyone jumps up and down and swears that God is among them. What a joke. This is the easiest thing in the world to fake, whether intentionally or sub-consciously. How do you tell the false from the real? Better yet, how do you know that ANY of it is real? You don't. But you want to believe that what you have is the power of God like they had in the bible so you don't question it.

 

[lecoop]

Yes, we do regard tongues as the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, please explain how tongues is the evidence of anything unless these tongues are proven to be legitimate languages the speaker did not know a few seconds before? Why do you assume that if a person blurts out a few incomprehensible phrases what you are witnessing is the same miracle that was reported in Acts? You really WANT to believe that's what it is don't you? That's why you assume. I have seen people coached into displaying this manifestation in Pentecostal/Charismatic meetings. If you say "hallelujah", over and over again your words will usually become garbled - and this happens and everyone jumps up and down and swears that God is among them. What a joke. This is the easiest thing in the world to fake, whether intentionally or sub-consciously. How do you tell the false from the real? Better yet, how do you know that ANY of it is real? You don't. But you want to believe that what you have is the power of God like they had in the bible so you don't question it.

BradtheImpaler, just because you cannot believe the word of God, does not mean that all others must be as you. There are untold millions that believe what Paul wrote: "no man undersands." Why is it that you have such a hard time believing this simple phrase? Then Paul also said, "in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." What does this mean, "in the spirit?" You will never know until you receive the baptism with the HS, and speak in tongues as in the book of Acts. Paul is speaking about these tongues coming from the human spirit, and not from the mind. Paul said, " the understanding is unfruitful." What did he mean? He means that when a human allows his spirit man to speak through the mouth, the mind is bypassed, and is therefore unfruitful - in other words, the person speaking from his or her spirit has no clue what is being said! That is, not until the words are out of the mouth and spoken.

Do you need more proof?

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Why would someone have to interpret his own tongues, unless he did not have a clue what he just spoke? This is "tongues 101." When Paul said "no man understands," he included the speaker also. More proof?

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Paul says that if he prays in tongues (main purpose of tongues) it is his spirit praying - not his mind. He has no clue what he is saying, so he says, "my understanding is unfruitful." This is so easy to understand, I fail to see why you don't get it.

Why then, do you question sounds that you can't understand? They are exactly what Paul was discribing. Oh, you just don't believe it is from the HS? Then your problem is a problem of no faith. Since faith comes from the word of God, then your real problem is that you just don't believe what Paul wrote here. Of course, you have the same problem with what Luke wrote.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Notice that the gift of the HS was poured out on these Gentiles. This astonished the Jews. They thought they had a "corner" on this market. Now notice how they knew that the HS had been poured out: "For they heard them speak with tongues..." Again, this is not hard to understand: a five year old could understand what Luke is saying here. Your problem is that you just don't believe it. If you can't believe this, how then can you believe any of the bible?

One more question: when hands are laid on today for people to receive the baptism with the HS, and they blurt out jibberish, how do you know that it is NOT the HS? You see, it comes down to faith: do you really believe what God says? Therefore, I assume nothing. I believe what Paul said. You, on the other hand, are assuming that a work of the HS is from man - a very dangerous thing to do.


Coop

 

[AVBunyan]

I have seen people coached into displaying this manifestation in Pentecostal/Charismatic meetings. If you say "hallelujah", over and over again your words will usually become garbled - and this happens and everyone jumps up and down and swears that God is among them. What a joke. This is the easiest thing in the world to fake, whether intentionally or sub-consciously.

Thanks Brad - I too have seen this stuff - easy to fake and folks will believe an experience is from God if it feels good and gives them a "warm fuzzy" :o

Plus - take away their experience and what do they have left ?

 

[MrVersatile48]

Google AoG HQ & Elim HQ & see

It's years since I read those sites, but I'm sure that they both have some fascinating features

Meanwhile, see how the gifts were promised 'to you, your children...& to as many as are afar off...to all who believe thru their word'

See also, in Mark 16 - 'these signs shall accompany them who believe...'

14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.


The height of the age-old war between God & Satan is when God's people need the spiritual gifts most - see 1 Corinthians 12-14 again

1 Corinthians 12 (New International Version)


1 Corinthians 12
Spiritual Gifts

1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant.
2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
13For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one bodyâ€â€whether Jews or Greeks, slave or freeâ€â€and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?
18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.
19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"
22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty,
24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,
25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.
26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret?

31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.



Especially as Jesus, in Matt 24 predicted that, 'thru the increase in wickedness, the love of most will grow cold'

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


This is a most callous generation, inflicting the most brutal tortures on even babies & the very old & very ill

We need - more than ever - to know how 'Christ's love constrains us'

& 'equips us for works of service'

It ain't over till it's over

The perfect ain't come yet - Jesus hasn't returned yet

We need to 'earnestly seek the higher gifts to edify/build up the Body of Christ'

As James said, "You have not because you do not ask"

Must go!

God bless!

Ian

 

[Dave...]

AV, you nailed it. If anyone is interested, I went over much of the same faulty reasoning used by those who claim tongues for today in a thread I started a while back. Check it out.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 04&start=0

Dave

 

[BradtheImpaler]

BradtheImpaler, just because you cannot believe the word of God, does not mean that all others must be as you

It doesn't directly have to do with believing the word of God - it has to do with how do you know that what goes on in YOUR MEETINGS is what went on in the word of God?

There are untold millions that believe what Paul wrote: "no man undersands."

There are "untold millions" that are deceived about MANY different things, wouldn't you agree? So how is your point here of any value?

Why is it that you have such a hard time believing this simple phrase?

No man understands except the man who speaks that language in the natural. If there is no one there who consciously understands that language, then the effort is pointless.

1 Cor.14:9-12...

"Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all KINDS OF LANGUAGES IN THE WORLD, yet none of them is without meaning. If I then do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you"

The words are UN-intelligible, in this context, if there is no one there who understands that language (naturally) and can interpret it. This also takes for granted that the language in question is a real language, which places the burden of proof on you. "Shonda honda honda" is not a genuine language, and you know what I mean :

Then Paul also said, "in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." What does this mean, "in the spirit?" You will never know until you receive the baptism with the HS, and speak in tongues as in the book of Acts

I HAVE had the same experience as you and yours. But I ask you if YOU have spoken in tongues "as in the book of Acts"? If what you said wasn't verified as a legitimate language by some or all of the listeners, then YOU HAVEN'T.

Paul is speaking about these tongues coming from the human spirit, and not from the mind. Paul said, " the understanding is unfruitful." What did he mean? He means that when a human allows his spirit man to speak through the mouth, the mind is bypassed, and is therefore unfruitful - in other words, the person speaking from his or her spirit has no clue what is being said! That is, not until the words are out of the mouth and spoken

I'm not saying the speaker is supposed to understand, nor the hearers if they don't know the language in question. I'm asking you why you assume these tongues are REALLY languages when it is child's play to work this up in the natural?

Do you need more proof?

Was there some proof given so far? Did I miss something?

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret

Why would someone have to interpret his own tongues, unless he did not have a clue what he just spoke? This is "tongues 101." When Paul said "no man understands," he included the speaker also. More proof?

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Paul says that if he prays in tongues (main purpose of tongues) it is his spirit praying - not his mind. He has no clue what he is saying, so he says, "my understanding is unfruitful." This is so easy to understand, I fail to see why you don't get it.

Why then, do you question sounds that you can't understand?

Because it is easy to make up "sounds you don't understand" and have you believe it is genuine. You're saying that the proof it is genuine is no one understands it? That's idiotic. No one would understand it if it is gibberish, right? So how do you tell the gibberish from the real (assuming there IS a "real") if you don't understand either? You can't, because you assume it is ALL genuine. You are a con-man's dream. If you were being asked to buy real estate, would you want some proof that this land in question EXISTED and that it was the seller's to sell? Or would you just assume that he must be on the level because there is such a thing as real estate?

They are exactly what Paul was discribing. Oh, you just don't believe it is from the HS? Then your problem is a problem of no faith. Since faith comes from the word of God, then your real problem is that you just don't believe what Paul wrote here

You still can't follow the simplest train of thought. I'm not challenging the veracity of the miraculous accounts in the bible here (as that is another subject) - I am challenging whether you Pentecostals have what they had in the bible.

Here's a question for you to meditate on..

Why is it that the easiest spiritual gifts to fake, (tongues, the interpretation of, and what passes for "prophecy") are in the greatest abundance in your meetings?

There's an inescapably logical answer to this - can you find it?

Of course, you have the same problem with what Luke wrote.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Notice that the gift of the HS was poured out on these Gentiles. This astonished the Jews. They thought they had a "corner" on this market. Now notice how they knew that the HS had been poured out: "For they heard them speak with tongues..." Again, this is not hard to understand: a five year old could understand what Luke is saying here. Your problem is that you just don't believe it. If you can't believe this, how then can you believe any of the bible?

Yes, and a 5 year old might also realize that the reason they knew this was a miraculous event is because they understood the tongues these gentiles were speaking in, otherwise how did they know they were "glorifying God"?

One more question: when hands are laid on today for people to receive the baptism with the HS, and they blurt out jibberish, how do you know that it is NOT the HS? You see, it comes down to faith: do you really believe what God says? Therefore, I assume nothing. I believe what Paul said. You, on the other hand, are assuming that a work of the HS is from man - a very dangerous thing to do.

I assume that because there is no proof that what is being said IS a real language. You are the claimant of the miraculous, the burden of proof is on you. Furthermore, recordings of Pentecostal tongues have been scrutinized by professional linguists and found to be the garbling of the speaker's natural tongue, not a genuine language.

Let me ask you - do you think that there is ANY fakery by ANYONE going on in tongues speaking circles? We can proceed from there.

 

[Free]

If anyone is interested, I went over much of the same faulty reasoning used by those who claim tongues for today in a thread I started a while back

And of course those who believe it ceased don't use faulty reasoning.... Let's actually take a look at the reasoning.

For those who believe that tongues have ceased, the main and only real argument that they have is that "it was a sign for unbelieving Jews". While I don't disagree that Paul said this, it isn't the only reason Paul gives, for those who care to carefully read 1 Cor. 14. Regardless, the argument fails on two simple facts: (1) Paul doesn't say they will end before the end of time, and (2) there are still unbelieving Jews today.

For anyone who thinks tongues have ceased, please answer these questions:

1. When did they cease?
2. Why did they cease?
3. Are they the only spiritual gift that has ceased? (See 1 Cor. 12:7-11,28-31).

 

[Free]

I don't see it as 'an error' in my argument pertaining to 'tongues', but I do acknowledge that absence of evidence need not necessarily mean evidence of absence. We ARE talking here about a phenomenon that has become a worldwide 'salvation issue' for many Pentecostals. For others who are not quite as extreme they still regard 'speaking in tongues' as EVIDENCE of an infilling of the Holy Spirit.

I also do see it as one type of evidence of an infilling of the HS. Incidentally, Acts does tell of those who, already having been filled with the Spirit, were filled again. As for a salvation issue, we are in agreement that that is not the case.

This implies that 1. 'tongue speakers' are 'closer to God', and 2. 'non-tongue speakers' are NOT 'close to God'. In other words, it creates a climate of 'us and them' and I would reject this practice based on that fact alone. It would also necessitate that 'the tongue-speaker' be a model or exemplorary Christian based on their 'closeness to God'. This is OFTEN not the case as I can attest!! 'Tongue-speaking' CANNOT be of the Holy Spirit.

It likely does create an "us and them" mentality for many tongue-speakers, which is very unfortunate. I do know from those close to me, my wife for one, who started speaking in tongues later in life, later in their Christian walk, that they were completely changed. My story is a little more complex but it still completely changed my life a few years ago. I am much closer to God now than I was, although I will be careful by saying that it may not all have been due to attending a Pentecostal church at the time.

So, yes, I believe that the absence in the scriptures of a phenomeonon that has swept through contemporary Christianity as 'tongues' have done is VERY significant indeed!

Yet it isn't absent from Scripture.

It has been my experience with known pentecoastals, that they are very friendly, but tend to be a bit shallow theologically...
Thier main discussions seem limited to God's love and speaking in tongues.

I fully agree. I have heard some very good Pentecostal preachers who go in-depth, but there have been more shallow ones than not. This is one of the reasons why I have distanced myself from the Pentecostal church in the last couple of years - shallow teaching, too much focus on the experience, and unbiblical practice of tongues in the church.

They are great with bringing people in to a seeking church, but when the seekers are looking for something more, the pentcoastal will loose those individuals...

Again, I fully agree.

 

[Dave...]

When did they cease?

Are you seeking an exact date? How is this relevant?

2. Why did they cease?

Paul made this clear when he quoted Isaiah in Chapter 14, " With men of other tongues (languages) and other lips I will speak to this people;"

Who do you think "this people" is in reference to? AV has already given the answer to this one.

Are they the only spiritual gift that has ceased?

No.

 

[lecoop]

to BradtheImpaler

I can see that you have a big problem with Paul's description of tongues, when compared to what you read in Acts. You have just not put these two together correctly. Both books are speaking of the same jibberish! When Paul said "no man understands," that is exactly what happened in Acts 19. They all spoke in tongues for a while, and then they quit (else they would still be speaking.) While they were speaking in tongues, Paul did not know what they were saying (no man understands). They did not know what they were saying (the understanding is unfruitful). However, when they quit speaking in tongues, and went back to their learned language, they were prophesying in their learned language.

In Acts 10, when the HG fell on them, and they all spoke in tongues, Peter did not know what they were saying (it was jibberish.) They did not know what they were saying. (the understanding is unfruitful). But - eventually they quit speaking in tongues (else they would still be speaking) and when they quit speaking in tongues, amazingly enough, they started speaking in their learned language. What did they say? They magnified God in their learned language. But when they were speaking in tongues, "no man understood." Again, why do you struggle so with this phrase, "no man understands?" Can't you see that if they understood the tongues and knew that they were magnifying God in tongues, then they did understand! But Paul said that "no man understands." You see, they could not have understood what was spoken in tongues, else Paul was just wrong, and the bible is in error.

But the bible is not wrong, and Paul was not wrong. No man understands tongues. Notice this verse in Acts:

Acts 2:8 Then how is it that we hear, each of us, in our own (particular) dialect to which we were born?

This particular incident was an added miracle of hearing! It does not say that they spoke these languages - but it does say that they heard. These 120 people were all speaking jibberish - for that is what tongues is. God the Holy Spirit made it up, and gave the utterance to them.

Since you just don't believe that God is big enough to do today what He did then, I will take another approach. Please follow closely.

God creates a language "on the spot:"

"shonda" means "praise the Lord"

Now, since it is God making up a language, he can assign any meaning He wants! I just put down "praise the Lord" as an example.

"honda" means "worship Him"

Again, since God the Holy Spirit is making it up as He goes, then He can assign any meaning he wants - and God the Father knows instantly what the Holy Spirit assigned. Are you following me?

Now suppose that Sister Choo in China is in desperate straights, perhaps is about to be caught by the police and taken to jail, where her family will have to pay maybe a year's salary to get her out. Got the picture? God knows all this, since He is all knowing, and wants to prevent it.

Now God sees someone praying in the spirit (tongues) in the back streets of Arkansas. He needs a prayer for Ms. Choo prayed immediately, so the HS starts creating the words with this meaning:

"Heavenly Father, sister choo really need your protecting hand right now. A Policeman is coming for her and her group right now. I ask you to create a diversion that will distract them, and then create some smoke so that sister choo will think her place is on fire. Then they will all disperse, so that when the police gets there, they will not be holding church service! Father, I ask you this in Jesus name, Amen."

You understand, that since it is the HS giving the utterance, then HE can assign any meaning to any sound spoken out. It does not have to sound like anything. However, it could sound like a language. It could sound like Shonda, Honda shandia - etc. It doesn't make any difference what it sounds like, as long as God can get someone to pray when He needs a prayer prayed.

Another scenario, and probably much more common, is that Joe Pentecostal goes for a prayer walk, and prays in the spirit, in tongues. Now Joe is really struggling with lust. This bomb shell blond just moved in across the hall from Joe, and she has invited him over for coffee twice, and both times, Joe accepted. Joe has fallen into this trap before. He wants to be free, but then, he enjoys lusting! What a deceitful trap!

So as Joe is praying in the spirit, the HS is creating a prayer that is just what Joe needs, but not what he will pray by himself! The HS wants to get a stranglehold on lust, but Joe is not ready to give it up yet, as he enjoys it too much.

If Joe spends any real time in tongues, say two hours a day for several weeks, suddenly he will discover that he had no more desire for this blond, but rather, wants to spend more time down at the church! Again, God has accomplished what He wanted done in prayer, but by a prayer in the Spirit!

See, you are struggling, wanting tongues to be a real language, but this is not what God invented them for! God wanted a way that we could pray out the perfect will of God for us (or for someone else) and not have any need to know all the details. God the HS spirit creates syllables, and assigns meaning to them, and the prayer prays them out. They are praying the exact prayer that the Holy Spirit designed for them! Tongues are always a prayer in God's perfect will, for it is the HS that creates the prayer.

So while you are complaining that churches today are confused, I will continue to pray in the spirit, in tongues. Who knows? I may be praying that you will finally "get it!"

Coop

 

[SputnikBoy]

So while you are complaining that churches today are confused, I will continue to pray in the spirit, in tongues. Who knows? I may be praying that you will finally "get it!"

While the above was addressed to Brad, I still need to ask the question that has so far not been given an answer. What is it that Brad has yet to 'get', Coop? Are you saying that if he prays to God in his own language - that both he and God understands - this is somehow not enough? Are you saying that praying to God in 'a language' (?) that neither you nor God understands is the way to go? Or, if we're to play along here and say that God DOES understand the prayer but that you don't, why is your NOT understanding more beneficial than is Brad's understanding of the prayer? You can understand my dilemma, can't you?

 

[lecoop]

So while you are complaining that churches today are confused, I will continue to pray in the spirit, in tongues. Who knows? I may be praying that you will finally "get it!"

While the above was addressed to Brad, I still need to ask the question that has so far not been given an answer. What is it that Brad has yet to 'get', Coop? Are you saying that if he prays to God in his own language - that both he and God understands - this is somehow not enough? Are you saying that praying to God in 'a language' (?) that neither you nor God understands is the way to go? Or, if we're to play along here and say that God DOES understand the prayer but that you don't, why is your NOT understanding more beneficial than is Brad's understanding of the prayer? You can understand my dilemma, can't you?

You know very well what I am saying, but you just don't believe it. God the Holy Spirit creates the prayer (gives the utterance), and the person speaks them out; that is if the person has received the baptism with the HS, with the initial evidence of tongues. God the Father listens. That places the speaker in tongues in-between God the Father and God the Holy Spirit - a perfect place to be.

You also know very well what Brad was to "get." Tongues today are just as real as what happened in Acts, and operate the same way: from the HS to the human spirit to the mouth, and "no man understands." But just as all other things of the spirit - it takes faith to believe in tongues, and it takes faith to practice tongues. Anyone can doubt.

Did you not read that every good gift comes down from the Father of lights? Anything that God gives us is a good gift. Why then, do you belittle it? If God thinks that speaking in tongues is beneficial, and He does, then I am all for it.

Coop

 

[SputnikBoy]

Hmmm . . .so, if God puts the words in the mouth of the one who is praying, that is tantamount to God praying to Himself. Well . . .okay.

 

[lecoop]

Hmmm . . .so, if God puts the words in the mouth of the one who is praying, that is tantamount to God praying to Himself. Well . . .okay.

You are getting close: God gives the words in our spirit man. So it is God giving us a perfect prayer for the moment. Don't you remember, Jesus said, "After this manner therefore pray ye..." and He gave them a prayer to pray. Now, when we pray in the spirit, we are praying the perfect, up to the minute, prayer.

Coop

 

[MrVersatile48]

Has God ceased to be miraculous & supernatural?

No

Has the work of the gospel got easier or harder as our Lord's return draws ever nearer?

Clearly harder, yes?

The age-old war of God v Satan, good v evil has never been fiercer

There were more martyrs in the 20th century than in all the 1st 19 put together

& since 9/11, born-again, Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christians are more persecuted than ever

Yet, as Isaiah 60:1-2 promised, the darker the darkness in the enemies of the gospel, the brighter shines the glory of God in all who truly love Him, trust Him & take Him at His Word

Isaiah 60
The Glory of Zion

1 "Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the LORD rises upon you.
2 See, darkness covers the earth
and thick darkness is over the peoples,
but the LORD rises upon you
and his glory appears over you.


We see the promised Later Rain of Holy Spirit outpouring on all flesh, just as promised in Joel 2

Rend Your Heart

12 "Even now," declares the LORD,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning."

13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.

14 Who knows? He may turn and have pity
and leave behind a blessingâ€â€
grain offerings and drink offerings
for the LORD your God.

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
declare a holy fast,
call a sacred assembly.

16 Gather the people,
consecrate the assembly;
bring together the elders,
gather the children,
those nursing at the breast.
Let the bridegroom leave his room
and the bride her chamber.

17 Let the priests, who minister before the LORD,
weep between the temple porch and the altar.
Let them say, "Spare your people, O LORD.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
'Where is their God?' "

The LORD's Answer

18 Then the LORD will be jealous for his land
and take pity on his people.
19 The LORD will reply [a] to them:
"I am sending you grain, new wine and oil,
enough to satisfy you fully;
never again will I make you
an object of scorn to the nations.

20 "I will drive the northern army far from you,
pushing it into a parched and barren land,
with its front columns going into the eastern sea
and those in the rear into the western sea. [c]
And its stench will go up;
its smell will rise."
Surely he has done great things. [d]

21 Be not afraid, O land;
be glad and rejoice.
Surely the LORD has done great things.

22 Be not afraid, O wild animals,
for the open pastures are becoming green.
The trees are bearing their fruit;
the fig tree and the vine yield their riches.

23 Be glad, O people of Zion,
rejoice in the LORD your God,
for he has given you
the autumn rains in righteousness. [e]
He sends you abundant showers,
both autumn and spring rains, as before.

24 The threshing floors will be filled with grain;
the vats will overflow with new wine and oil.

25 "I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten the great locust and the young locust,
the other locusts and the locust swarm [f]â€â€
my great army that I sent among you.

26 You will have plenty to eat, until you are full,
and you will praise the name of the LORD your God,
who has worked wonders for you;
never again will my people be shamed.

27 Then you will know that I am in Israel,
that I am the LORD your God,
and that there is no other;
never again will my people be shamed.

The Day of the LORD

28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.

31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.


The Acts 2 outpouring was like Israel's spring rains - as the church 1st sprang to life

Israel's Later Rain is in autumn/fall, to prepare the Final Harvest of souls - convincing & convicting folk of sin, righteousness & judgement as well as speaking in dreams & visions when folks' resistance is nil - as they sleep

That's why so many Muslims have had dreams & visions of Jesus & responded to Him: just as Daniel, in captivity in Babylon for nearly 70 years, read how God promised to free the Jews from there after 70 years, Daniel knew that God wants us to believe Him so much that we claim His promises by faith

As Jesus said, "Whatever you ask in My name - (=according to My character & My revealed will) - I will do it: I will do anything that you ask in My name"

The Bible says, "God puts His Word even above His name"

So take Him seriously

At His Word

Doubt the doubters & believe the believers in Christ!

"Wake up, O sleeper & rise from death & the glory of the Lord shall shine upon you!"

We need to 'equip all the saints for the work of ministry' more than ever!

Thru the Biblical laying on of hands & prayer of faith

See many helpful & fascinating features at:-

http://www.elim.org.uk


General council of the Assemblies of God, offering news and official statements of beliefs.
Category: Christian Denominations > Assemblies of God
RSS: View as XML - Add to My Yahoo!
http://www.ag.org - More pages from this site

God bless!

Ian

 

[lecoop]

Has God ceased to be miraculous & supernatural?

No

Has the work of the gospel got easier or harder as our Lord's return draws ever nearer?

No

The age-old war of God v Satan, good v evil has never been fiercer

There were more martyrs in the 20th century than in all the 1st 19 put together

& since 9/11, born-again, Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christians are more persecuted than ever

Yet, as Isaiah 60:1-2 promised, the darker the darkness in the enemies of the gospel, the brighter shines the glory of God in all who truly love Him, trust Him & take Him at His Word

We see the promised Later Rain of Holy Spirit outpouring on all flesh, just as promised in Joel 2

The Acts 2 outpouring was like Israel's spring rains - as the church 1st sprang to life

Israel's Later Rain is in autumn/fall, to prepare the Final Harvest of souls - convincing & convicting folk of sin, righteousness & judgement as well as speaking in dreams & visions when folks' resistance is nil - as they sleep

That's why so many Muslims have had dreams & visions of Jesus & responded to Him: just as Daniel, in captivity in Babylon for nearly 70 years, read how God promised to free the Jews from there after 70 years, Dan knew that God wants us to believe Him so much that we claim His promises by faith

As Jesus said, "Whatever you ask in My name - (=according to My character & My revealed will) - I will do it: I will do anything that you ask in My name"

The Bible says, "God puts His Word even above His name"

So take Him seriously

At His Word

Doubt the doubters & believe the believers in Christ!

"Wake up, O sleeper & rise from death & the glory of the Lord shall shine upon you!"

We need to 'equip all the saints for the work of ministry 'more than ever!

Thru the Biblical laying on of hands & prayer of faith

God bless!

Ian

Ian, I could not have said it as well! :smt041

 

[MrVersatile48]

Has God ceased to be miraculous & supernatural?

No

Has the work of the gospel got easier or harder as our Lord's return draws ever nearer?

No
The age-old war of God v Satan, good v evil has never been fiercer

There were more martyrs in the 20th century than in all the 1st 19 put together!

& since 9/11, born-again, Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christians are more persecuted than ever

Yet, as Isaiah 60:1-2 promised, the darker the darkness in the enemies of the gospel, the brighter shines the glory of God in all who truly love Him, trust Him & take Him at His Word

We see the promised Later Rain of Holy Spirit outpouring on all flesh, just as promised in Joel 2

The Acts 2 outpouring was like Israel's spring rains - as the church 1st sprang to life

Israel's Later Rain is in autumn/fall, to prepare the Final Harvest of souls - convincing & convicting folk of sin, righteousness & judgement as well as speaking in dreams & visions when folks' resistance is nil - as they sleep

That's why so many Muslims have had dreams & visions of Jesus & responded to Him: just as Daniel, in captivity in Babylon for nearly 70 years, read how God promised to free the Jews from there after 70 years, Dan knew that God wants us to believe Him so much that we claim His promises by faith

As Jesus said, "Whatever you ask in My name - (=according to My character & My revealed will) - I will do it: I will do anything that you ask in My name"

The Bible says, "God puts His Word even above His name"

So take Him seriously

At His Word

Doubt the doubters & believe the believers in Christ!

"Wake up, O sleeper & rise from death & the glory of the Lord shall shine upon you!"

We need to 'equip all the saints for the work of ministry 'more than ever!

Thru the Biblical laying on of hands & prayer of faith

God bless!

Ian

Ian, I could not have said it as well! :smt041

Yo Tulsa! :-D

I just saw classic musical Oklahoma! -(for the umpteenth time, as an ex-pro entertainer!) 8-)

I loved all John Steinbeck's books that we did for English A Level

I'M TRYIN' TO KEEP MY FACE STRAIGHT MENTIONING tHE GRAPES oF WRATH & OF MICE & MEN IN THIS CONTEXT..

IN CASE SOME FOLK GO...

ER.. :roll:


TORTILLA FLAT?? :o

Man... :angel:

the 'Net means I ain't even 24 seconds from Tulsa now, huh? :fadein:

Did y'all go to the Masters Commission global conference @ Phoenix? :

Of course it's on topic: our Great Commission inc teaching folk what Jesus taught - inc @ it being best for us that He returned to Heaven, so that He can now send His Holy Spirit - aka the Spirit of God/the Spirit of Christ - to live in the hearts of all who love Him

& He sure don't want us to 'grieve the Holy Spirit' by trying to resist His Almighty power, that was brooding over all creation in Genesis 1

Our 10.30 message at Bootle Elim inc 'that same Almighty power working in us' - that created the universe & raised Christ from death, just as He will raise all of us -at the instant airlift Rapture of all who love Him, as per Matt 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11, etc

Jesus is none less than the Almighty Creator in human form, as John 1, Colossians 1 & Hebrews 1 make most crystal clear

Ain't no time to mess with God!

Ain't no time to remain stiff-necked stubbornly just dipping a toe in the rivers of blessing that flow from God's throne!

SON OF MAN, CAN THESE DRY BONES LIVE? - see Ezekiel 37, y'all!! 8-)

Ezekiel 37 (New International Version)


Ezekiel 37
The Valley of Dry Bones

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry.

3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"

I said, "O Sovereign LORD, you alone know."

4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath [a] enter you, and you will come to life.
6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life.

Then you will know that I am the LORD.' "

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' "

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feetâ€â€a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.'
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.

14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "


It's time to trust God enough to dive into the river of His blessings

& let the Spirit who began a good work to carry it & you thru to completion, yes?

YEEEEEEE----HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! :multi:

God bless!

Ian

 

[Dave...]

When Paul said "no man understands," that is exactly

This is not a command, but a statement of fact.

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

First, this is not speaking of the Holy Spirit, but our spirit.

Second, Why does Paul qualify it with "for no one understands him" when the true gift speaks to this people? "I will speak to this people;"

Third, why in verse nine is he speaking into the air? Not to God?


1 Pursue love (not self seeking), and desire spiritual gifts (true gifts used properly are good), but especially that you may prophesy (prophecy is for believers).

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. (This is the wrong thing to do)

Note:vs. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. (This is the wrong thing to do)

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.(this is the right thing to do)

3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. (this is the right thing to do)

4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself (wrong thing to do), but he who prophesies edifies the church (right thing to do).

5 I wish you all spoke with tongues ( The true gift is Good, it still had purpose before the judgment fell), but even more that you prophesied (prophecy is specifically for the edification of believers); for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. ( even true tongues should be interpreted so believers are edified, the purpose is still a for a sign)

Note: 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. (not speaking to God as in verse two?)

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. (Tongue[[]]=Languages)

12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. (seek edifying the Church, this is what love does, without lov, you are a clanging symbol.)

18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.


Tongues a Sign to Unbelievers
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21In the law it is written:


"With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,"


says the Lord.
22Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

Why is it that all Charismatic teaching always ends up pointing towards one obscure verse, but disregards all the clear scripture?