Just What ARE The Problems With Soul Sleep?

[SputnikBoy]

The Bible really DOES seem to be pretty clear on the issue of the dead in that they are presently 'sleeping' in their graves awaiting the resurrection at the Second Coming of Jesus. While 'sleep' is a metaphor for 'death' it is not unreasonable to apply the concept of death to 'a sleep' based on the many scriptural texts that refer to it as such.

The Bible tells us that the dead go to their graves and that the spirit (the 'pneuma' or breath) of the individual goes back to God who gave it. God originally breathed into the nostrils of man (the breath of life) and man became a living soul. Death appears to be a reversal of this concept. Why then, do people take such issue with the term 'soul sleep' (even calling those who believe in it as heretics) when it really DOES seem to tally with the Word of God?

Comment by wavy: He (Walter Martin) also does an excellent job disproving soul sleep …

As if you don't have enough on your plate already, wavy, what did you mean by this comment? And please don't offer the text from Paul about 'being absent from the body ...' I'm sure you can do better than using that well worn chestnut to contradict the overwhelming number of other scriptures that support and establish the 'soul sleep' concept.

If this thread takes off, is there any chance that personal opinions and cherished traditions be kept to an absolute minimum? Pretty please? And please, don't present scriptures (from Paul, probably ...**yawn**) without at least acknowledging that they DO appear to CONTRADICT other scriptures concerning the same issue. We need to address ALL scripture on the issue instead of passing it off as irrelevant simply because Paul appears to say something to the contrary.

 

[Drew]

I lean to the belief that the dead are indeed "asleep, awaiting a phyisical resurrection.

I do not yet know my Bible as well as many, and I admit my belief about this topic is largely influenced by "philosophical / technical" problems associated with the notion of an immaterial soul. In addition, I believe that neuroscience is showing us that "parts" of us that have traditionally been deemed to be "in the soul" are in fact intimately tied to the physiology of our brains.

In any event, I wish to express an opinion about matters of text interpretation. I wish to ask the readers to consider the possibility that the text may, at times, speak of the soul in phenomenological terms. This is just a fancy way of saying that not all usages of the word "soul" necessarily refer to a "thing". For example, the ensemble (set) of all my conscious experiences (experiences of taste, vision, aural, tactile, emotion, etc) can be conceived of as "phenomena" that accompany physical activity in the brain. Perhaps, the soul is simply the collection of such "felt experiences". On such a view, it is no more a "thing" than the sensation of tasting orange juice is a "thing".

 

[Drew]

Lest ye think you were done with me.....

With the view expressed in my previous post in mind, one can look at verses like the following in a different light.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

This text has often been used to defend the existence of the immaterial soul. However, a phenomenological interpretation of the word soul renders this verse non-problematic for those of us who are not fans of an immaterial soul. Why do I say this? Because I also lean to the belief that when a believer dies, information about his physical constitution is preserved "in the mind" of God. So an evil person can kill the body but not the "soul" - because the soul is preserved in informational terms in the mind of God. The person who has been killed is "asleep" waiting for God to "download" this information into a new physical body at the resurrection. So the resurrected person is now complete - he has a body and a "soul".

 

[guibox]

Why then, do people take such issue with the term 'soul sleep' (even calling those who believe in it as heretics) when it really DOES seem to tally with the Word of God?

For the simple reason that if one believes we have an ethereal soul breathed in our bodies by God, it is ludicrous to think that it can die. The problem here is two-fold

1) That 'soul sleep' is not a truthful nor accurate term to define the nature of man when he dies. There is no 'soul' that 'sleeps'. A man dies and has no more consciousness until he is awoken by the voice of God and finally conquers death and receives immortality.

2) That God didn't breath a soul into man, but the breath of life that became a soul. If man DID have immortality, he lost it when he sinned and needed Christ to restore 'eternal life for whosoever believeth in him'.

And please don't offer the text from Paul about 'being absent from the body ...' I'm sure you can do better than using that well worn chestnut to contradict the overwhelming number of other scriptures that support and establish the 'soul sleep' concept.

I have shown clearly and will do so again if need be, that 2 Corinthians 5:8 is actually speaking of acheiving the resurrection body at the end of time (thus linking itself to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.)

It is NOT speaking of an 'immortal soul' even in its immediate context. When you actually look at it in it's deeper context (verses 1-5) we see that Paul not only uses the same language but even the same WORDS that he uses when speaking of the resurrection.

If this thread takes off, is there any chance that personal opinions and cherished traditions be kept to an absolute minimum? Pretty please? And please, don't present scriptures (from Paul, probably ...**yawn**) without at least acknowledging that they DO appear to CONTRADICT other scriptures concerning the same issue. We need to address ALL scripture on the issue instead of passing it off as irrelevant simply because Paul appears to say something to the contrary.

Unfortunately, SB, unless one steps back and looks at the whole salvation history of man taking both the OT and the NT into consideration as well as the linguistic context, and quits looking at one verse and basing a theology out of it, you will have opinion after opinion. It is more comfortable to hold on to cherished beliefs instead of seeing the clear scripture that says otherwise.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Lest ye think you were done with me.....

Darn it ...I thought we were done with you. :wink:

With the view expressed in my previous post in mind, one can look at verses like the following in a different light.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

This text has often been used to defend the existence of the immaterial soul. However, a phenomenological interpretation of the word soul renders this verse non-problematic for those of us who are not fans of an immaterial soul. Why do I say this? Because I also lean to the belief that when a believer dies, information about his physical constitution is preserved "in the mind" of God. So an evil person can kill the body but not the "soul" - because the soul is preserved in informational terms in the mind of God. The person who has been killed is "asleep" waiting for God to "download" this information into a new physical body at the resurrection. So the resurrected person is now complete - he has a body and a "soul".

Good post, Drew. I like your slant on this and on other issues. You're obviously a 'thinker' and this is a valuable quality to have. Thanks for your intelligent input.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Sputnik,

The Bible really DOES seem to be pretty clear on the issue of the dead in that they are presently 'sleeping' in their graves awaiting the resurrection at the Second Coming of Jesus

Presently? I'm not so sure about that.

You spoke of contradictions in the bible. Some verses indicating that people sleep in the dust at physical death and some verses seem to illustrate that people are in the presense of God and not asleep meaning unconcious of existance.

Examples of the sleep in the dust thing.......

Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11
11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

John 5
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come outâ€â€those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Here we see that those who died back in Daniels time were to 'sleep' until the time of the resurrection. John 11 gives the word of Jesus definately describing the sleep is death idea. John 5 shows that at the time of Jesus on earth the dead still lay in the grave not able to hear. I think the term 'soul sleep' is as good as any to describe this.

Then there are verses which seem to indicate that the person lives on in heaven/purgatory?/Abraham's Bosum/ wherever after death.

The most obvious is this from John 11.

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

If Martha never dies she should be able to 'hear' which in John 5 says they can't???? However, I can't see this as being asleep in the dust aware of nothing. Why would she have to wait for any resurrection when Jesus tells her she will never die in the first place. She didn't 'live' on in any physical state so she must 'live' on in a heavenly , spiritual, invisible state.

Here is the verse that was hinted at earlier......

6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

AND it is just after Paul writes this:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands

So I see verses in the bible saying that people lie in the dust aware of nothing and I see verses where they are able to hear and 'live.'

What explanation does the bible have for all this? It is right here.....

1 Cor 15
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,...............

When does this happen?

1 Cor 15
52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

At the last trumpet or the parousia it is no longer necessary to 'sleep.'

Except Martha didn't have to sleep, how would that work?
Easy, that dreaded preterism has the correct interpretation and the parousia was in Martha's lifetime.

Soul sleep prior to 70 AD, heavenly rest since. Gotta admit, from the biblical word it fits don't it?

noble6

 

[SputnikBoy]

Hi Sputnik,

The Bible really DOES seem to be pretty clear on the issue of the dead in that they are presently 'sleeping' in their graves awaiting the resurrection at the Second Coming of Jesus

Presently? I'm not so sure about that.

You spoke of contradictions in the bible. Some verses indicating that people sleep in the dust at physical death and some verses seem to illustrate that people are in the presense of God and not asleep meaning unconcious of existance.

Examples of the sleep in the dust thing.......

Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11
11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

John 5
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come outâ€â€those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Here we see that those who died back in Daniels time were to 'sleep' until the time of the resurrection. John 11 gives the word of Jesus definately describing the sleep is death idea. John 5 shows that at the time of Jesus on earth the dead still lay in the grave not able to hear. I think the term 'soul sleep' is as good as any to describe this.

Then there are verses which seem to indicate that the person lives on in heaven/purgatory?/Abraham's Bosum/ wherever after death.

The most obvious is this from John 11.

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

If Martha never dies she should be able to 'hear' which in John 5 says they can't???? However, I can't see this as being asleep in the dust aware of nothing. Why would she have to wait for any resurrection when Jesus tells her she will never die in the first place. She didn't 'live' on in any physical state so she must 'live' on in a heavenly , spiritual, invisible state.

Hi noble

I've been busy doing a psychology assignment for the last few days so I haven't been on the forum. About the above passage of scripture ...the way I see this, noble, is that 'sleep' being a figurative term for 'death' has pretty well been established by the time we get to this scripture. In fact, go to John 11:23-24. This scripture clearly tells us that Martha was certainly knowledgable about the resurrection of the dead at the last day. She knew that Lazarus would remain in his grave 'asleep' until then. What she didn't realize is that Jesus could raise Lazarus from the dead before that day if He chose to do so. And He did!

So, when Jesus is telling Martha she will never die, He's referring to this in an eternal sense. She certainly would have died a 'physical' death eventually but she'll live forever at the resurrection. It's the same with you and me (I hope) in that while we will die a physical death, we will not in fact 'die' but live eternally.

Here is the verse that was hinted at earlier......

6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Paul is not saying what I think you're suggesting he's saying, noble. It would take more than a little bitty text from Paul to change what God has consistently shown us in scripture thus far. We could even miss that scripture if we were to blink at the wrong time! God had set in place from Creation certain 'laws' that would not change merely because of the words of some human apostle ...not that this is what Paul is doing anyway.

However, I DO wish that people would stop implying that Paul had become the 'new Messiah' and had the ability to alter consistent beliefs simply because he felt like it. Not that you have implied this, noble, to my knowledge. Anyway, Paul was no less a human being than we are. We have threads galore on this forum where a newcomer to Christianity might be forgiven for believing that Paul WAS Jesus under an assumed name.

AND it is just after Paul writes this:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

That's an extremely ambiguous text to use to counter the 'soul sleep' concept, noble. Paul is not suggesting that we go to be with the Lord immediately at death. Death will be but the blink of an eye. It will seem as though no time has passed at all. Paul was well aware about 'those who sleep in Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14).' And so was Martha.

So I see verses in the bible saying that people lie in the dust aware of nothing and I see verses where they are able to hear and 'live.'

What explanation does the bible have for all this? It is right here.....

1 Cor 15
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,...............

When does this happen?

1 Cor 15
52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

At the last trumpet or the parousia it is no longer necessary to 'sleep.'

When does this happen, you ask? On the Day of the Lord when all of the righteous dead will be raised from their graves. "We will not all sleep" is a generalization that simply means those who are still living when Jesus returns. If Jesus returns tomorrow, noble, you and I will not 'sleep' since we'll still be alive ...I hope!

Except Martha didn't have to sleep, how would that work?
Easy, that dreaded preterism has the correct interpretation and the parousia was in Martha's lifetime.

No, no. Everything is good and the way it should be.

Soul sleep prior to 70 AD, heavenly rest since. Gotta admit, from the biblical word it fits don't it?

'Fraid not, noble. What are you suggesting, that death has now been upgraded to "new and improved" ...? :wink:

 

[noblej6]

Hi Sputnik,

This scripture clearly tells us that Martha was certainly knowledgable about the resurrection of the dead at the last day. She knew that Lazarus would remain in his grave 'asleep' until then.

Yes, Martha talked about the resurrection at the last day, but Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection.'" What do you suppose that was to mean? I have no hidden explanation for what He meant either. HOwever, as you said Lazurus was asleep/dead.

What she didn't realize is that Jesus could raise Lazarus from the dead before that day if He chose to do so. And He did!

I agree. I doubt Martha was aware that Jesus would, or even could raise her brother from the tomb that day.

So, when Jesus is telling Martha she will never die, He's referring to this in an eternal sense.

Yes, exactly, but the meaning has to remain. Martha was living as an earthly physical natural person as Jesus spoke to her. Jesus told her she would never die, but as you said she did die physically so how did she continue to live? Remember Jesus just said, "even tho you die , you live". Martha 'lived' on in the spiritual realm. To 'live' would not be to sleep in the dust aware of nothing, not being able to hear would it? How could that be living because that is laying in the dust asleep in physical body decay.

She certainly would have died a 'physical' death eventually but she'll live forever at the resurrection.

Except that Jesus Hinmself told Martha that she would NEVER DIE. I agree that what you wrote is correct, but the only way that can totally fit scripture is if her resurrection was immediately after her physical death. What else would fit the scripture? In other words, 'eventua;lly' would not fit because Jesus said first, "even tho you die, you live" and then He told Martha she would never die. That doesn't mean she would die for 2000 years and the 'live' again' in some way, never means never, especially when it is Jesus saying "Never."

It's the same with you and me (I hope) in that while we will die a physical death, we will not in fact 'die' but live eternally.

Absolutely. Now back to the soul sleep situation. I consider that Martha did not experience the soul sleep because she was in the group that qualified to miss sleep because of 1 Cor 15:51 and she could immediatey ascend to Heaven at physical death.

Paul is not suggesting that we go to be with the Lord immediately at death

Not from this verse alone, no. That is why I bring up the John 11:25,26 verses to fill in the rest.

Death will be but the blink of an eye. It will seem as though no time has passed at all.

I would think so too, but Jesus tells Martha that, in fact, no time WILL pas, hence He used the words NEVER DIE. For Daniel who did sleep in the dust for years, I would agree that he would not be aware of that passage of time.....again, soul sleep.

When does this happen, you ask? On the Day of the Lord when all of the righteous dead will be raised from their graves. "We will not all sleep" is a generalization that simply means those who are still living when Jesus returns. If Jesus returns tomorrow, noble, you and I will not 'sleep' since we'll still be alive ...I hope!

So where is Martha? If Jeus considers us worthy we will not sleep. We physically die, but we do not sleep. That is the meaning of 2 Cor 5.

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands

We die and our earthly tent returns to the dust and the spirit returns to the God who gave it. In other words to the heavenly house which is eternal for us in Heaven.

'Fraid not, noble. What are you suggesting, that death has now been upgraded to "new and improved"

I never thought of it before, but you have described my understanding of this very well. Prior to the parousia which is the establishment of the Eternal Kingdom of Heaven death was the finish, the end, the final hurrah, after that parousia there was no sting to death because believers get to live on eternally in the heavenly realm. No soul sleep.

I read back over this and I didn't explain it worth a hoot in places so ask away on any questions you have where I fuzzed it up.

noble6

[/quote]

 

[SputnikBoy]

Thanks noble and also thanks for your non-argumentative tone. If I ever come across in a manner other than that, just give me a sharp slap! :smt021

I'll try to get back with you on this issue later. By the way, where do you get 'the parousia' from?

 

[noblej6]

Hi Sputnik,

I'll try to get back with you on this issue later. By the way, where do you get 'the parousia' from?

Parousia from 1 Cor 15:52 where it talks about the last trumpet. Also the mystery is revealed which is talked about in Rev.10

7But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

noble6

 

[Drew]

Greetings All:

I still think that the words of Jesus can be rendered consistent with the "soul sleep" hypothesis if one chooses to take a phenomenological perspective. This is the "first-person what-it-is-like-to-be-the-subject-of experience" perspective, as contrasted with the third-person "objective" perspective. I think Jesus's claim that "He who believes in me will live, even though he dies" can be understood as consistent with the soul sleep hypothesis if we think phenomenologically rather than objectively.

Let's suppose that the "soul sleep" hypothesis is correct. Let's suppose Fred dies. From an "objective perspective", Fred's consciousness is snuffed out for 5000 years until the time of the trumpet call. For Fred, however, as the subject of phenomenological first person experience, the transition from death-bed to resurrection is but the twinkling of an eye.

Perhaps there is a culture-specific interpretation issue here. Here in the west, in the age of "science", we are very much inclined to take statements in a literal, third-person objective sense, rather than in a phenomenological sense. Does anyone know about the culture in which the NT was written? Would there be any reason to believe that people would think "phenomenologically" rather than objectively.

All this being said, my present opinion is that the term soul sleep is misleading, since I am inclinded to not even believe in the existence of an immaterial soul (yet I still believe in the life to come, as I have explained in this and several other threads).

 

[guibox]

Greetings All:

I still think that the words of Jesus can be rendered consistent with the "soul sleep" hypothesis if one chooses to take a phenomenological perspective. This is the "first-person what-it-is-like-to-be-the-subject-of experience" perspective, as contrasted with the third-person "objective" perspective. I think Jesus's claim that "He who believes in me will live, even though he dies" can be understood as consistent with the soul sleep hypothesis if we think phenomenologically rather than objectively.

Thank you, Drew, for you insights. I am appreciating your views more and more.

I really can't argue against noble because our arguments are on completely different wavelengths concerning the second coming of Christ.

However, many 'immortal soul' advocates use His words against Martha to show that Jesus was speaking in the present tense and therefore Martha HAD eternal life and would never die from that point on.

However, you made a good point that it doesn't have to be that way and Martha will never die eternally.

Jesus reiterated and explained in John 6 what it means to have 'eternal life' and to 'never die'.

Verily I say to you, he who believes in me has eternal life' - John 6:47

This is exactly what He told Martha. But notice what this meant to Jesus.

And this is the will of Him that sent me, that everyone who has seen the Son and believeth on Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day - John 6:40

It was the eternal that Jesus was speaking about, not immediate consequence after this physical life.

We DO have eternal life, but it is only realized at the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 shows this very well

"THEN shall be brought to pass the saying 'Death is swallowed up in victory, O death where is they sting?"

Only at the resurrection when 'this mortal shall put on immortality' is eternal life realized in the world to come when death is finally conquered. This is what both Christ and Paul speak of when talking about eternal life in the world to come, not an immortal soul at death.

The truth is so clear if people would take their blinders off and read the scriptures for what they say!

 

[SputnikBoy]

All this being said, my present opinion is that the term soul sleep is misleading, since I am inclinded to not even believe in the existence of an immaterial soul (yet I still believe in the life to come, as I have explained in this and several other threads).

Thanks for your thoughts on this issue, Drew ...very good.

In regard to the paragraph above, it's only in relatively recent times that the term 'soul sleep' has become known to me. Prior to that it was referred to (by SDAs anyway) as 'the state of the dead'. The only reason I use the term 'soul sleep' on threads such as this is so that others who DO use that term will be able to relate to the issue.

I trust that you've gotten something out of the posts of Drew and guibox, noble ...any comments?

 

[noblej6]

Hi sputnik,

I guess I go back to John 11:25, 26. What does the bible say? Is there any hint there that we should have to add this 'time passes and you won't know it' idea? OR does Jesus tell Martha she will NEVER die. Being that Jesus has just informed her that she will 'live' even tho she dies, I sure don't see why she, or I, should be considering that she will do anything except what Jesus Himself specifically says. I haven't seen any real good argument that would tell me Martha wasn't resurrected to the spiritual life immediately upon her physical death to fullfill the statement of Christ that 'you will never die.'

We know there is a earthly body, we know there is a heavenly body, we know that we go to a permanent Heavenly house after our earthly tent is destroyed...what doesn't fit?

No, guys, I think I'll stick with the apparent intent of the written word, especially when it reconciles with so many others..

Perhaps that would be a place to check this all out. Scripture does prove scripture. What scripture would eliminate the possibility of Martha going to Heaven and thus never dying?

John 5
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come outâ€â€those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Here we see where those in the grave are promised to be raised to 'live' or rise to be condemned.

When will this happen? Verse 25 shows the time of that.

25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has NOW come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

That was NOW as Jesus spoke the words. That is the same timeframe when Martha is told she will 'live' even tho she dies.

We also have the sentences of Paul which include himself or the readers of the letters he writes as being among those who will be there for the parousia.

1 Thess 4
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

And of course, the verse which describes when the sleep is no longer necessary.

1 Cor 15
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,............

That has to include at the very least some who read that letter because it says 'we will not all sleep' Some reading that had to be alive at that last trumpet which is at the parousia. Pauls day was also Martha's time.

It seems straight forward to me, but point out where any of you see any problems.

noble6

 

[adventageous]

noblej6

How would you translate Ecc. 12:7 inline with the rest of the NT Scriptures pertaining to death.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

How would that apply to Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from the dead? Or Judas, who betrayed Jesus and committed suicide. Or even Martha?

 

[Vic C.]

(off topic post by me)

Hi Sputnik,

I'll try to get back with you on this issue later. By the way, where do you get 'the parousia' from?

Parousia from 1 Cor 15:52 where it talks about the last trumpet. Also the mystery is revealed which is talked about in Rev.10

7But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

noble6

:smt018 Different trumps alltogether. We've been discussing this in some detail over the last few months. :-D

 

[noblej6]

Hi Vic,

I'm going to see if I can track down your threads on trumpets. I'll check some other sources as well.

nob;le6

 

[adventageous]

Hi Vic,

I'm going to see if I can track down your threads on trumpets. I'll check some other sources as well.

nob;le6

noblej6,

If possible, would you kindly respond to my post? I just want to understand your viewpoint on Ecc. 12:7, and how it relates to the dearly departed and NT scriptures pertaining to death.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Vic C.]

Or Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 8-)

 

[noblej6]

Hi Vic,

I'll quote verses a bit back from verse 7.

...........
Then man goes to his eternal home
and mourners go about the streets.

6 Remember himâ€â€before the silver cord is severed,
or the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
or the wheel broken at the well,

7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

In verses 4 and 5 he speaks of the end of life. Physical, earthly natural life as I see it.

The dead person goes to his eternal home. This is in the Old Testamnet so in my understanding Heavenly afterlife is not available yet so I assume the spirit going to the God who gave it is only in the sleep mode situation. The body returns to the dust and because it earlier says the eternal home I assume the body stays in the dust forever. It is that spirit that returns to God that will live again in the Heavenly realm at the time of the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven.(parousia)

Eccesiastes 9
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

I read this to mean that the dead, prior to the parousia, lie in the dust aware of nothing. I assume that they are spiritually resurrected to the heavenly spiritual life at the time of the parousia.

Being that they never again have any part in what happens in the sunlight is a further hint to me that they remain in the spiritual , heavenly realm forever .

In the care of God somehow until parousia and then resurrected to heaven at that time.

Is that what you were asking, Vic?

noble6