Justification understood

[Jim Parker]

I have correctly pointed out that emotional belief is not the same as heart felt belief. Your non-OSAS bias has caused you to over look that.

There is no such distinction anywhere in scripture. NOwhere is there any reference to or suggestion of anything called "emotional belief." It a fabrication so OSAS folk don't have to deal with fact that scripture repeatedly refutes the OSAS nonsense. Just pretend that when Jesus said "believe" that He didn't REALLY mean believe; He was really talking about something else but just couldn't think of the right words at that moment.

Sure!

Jesus said they "believed." (<--- PERIOD) He didn't qualify the word believe in any manner to suggest it was just an emotional response.

Luk 8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe (πιστεύω [pisteuō] ) for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

So Jesus, Himself, said that a person can believe than then fall away. Apparently HE didn't believe the OSAS bunk either. But maybe you know better than He.

The same word for belief Jesus uses at John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes (πιστεύω [ pisteuō] ) in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Either the word means "believe" or it doesn't.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So, you call me a liar and a pretender and speak against what I believe and call it bunk.
I think as Christians we should all clean up our mouths and hearts before we go forward.

 

[Jim Parker]

So, you call me a liar and a pretender and speak against what I believe and call it bunk.
I think as Christians we should all clean up our mouths and hearts before we go forward.

I didn't call anyone a liar or a pretender.

I told you what I believe. Part of what I believe is that your belief is wrong. That's my opinion.

You can take it or leave it. It's America. We get to do that.

iakov the fool

 

[WIP]

This being America has nothing to do with treating others respectfully on this site. Let us demonstrate Christian love and respect in how we respond in these forums. Not doing so is a clear violation of the ToS that we all agreed to when we joined CFnet. Address the topic and not the person. Further violation will result in stronger disciplinary action.

 

[Jim Parker]

This being America has nothing to do with treating others respectfully on this site. Let us demonstrate Christian love and respect in how we respond in these forums. Not doing so is a clear violation of the ToS that we all agreed to when we joined CFnet. Address the topic and not the person. Further violation will result in stronger disciplinary action.

That was supposed to be light humor.

 

[WIP]

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Kidron]

There is no such distinction anywhere in scripture. NOwhere is there any reference to or suggestion of anything called "emotional belief." It a fabrication so OSAS folk don't have to deal with fact that scripture repeatedly refutes the OSAS nonsense. Just pretend that when Jesus said "believe" that He didn't REALLY mean believe;
my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

The word "believe" can mean you believe Obama is president, but you dont trust him.
So, when we think of faith in the context of "believing faith", it means to trust from your heart, and not just believe that Jesus existed.
Millions of people believe that Jesus is real, so that is one type of belief, but its not the type that God accepts to save you.
Its when your trust is your belief in Christ as savior, when your belief is this TRUST in Christ, then that is what God accepts (and not water baptism, or keeping commandments).
So, Belief is TRUST, when it comes to Faith that God accepts, and trust is a matter of the HEART and not the head.
You do math with you head, you do trust with your heart.

 

[Jim Parker]

The word "believe" can mean you believe Obama is president, but you dont trust him. So, when we think of faith in the context of "believing faith", it means to trust from your heart, and not just believe that Jesus existed.

That's a good explanation of what YOU mean by "believing faith." It is not a biblical term.
The word "believe", with its variations, as used in the New Testament, refers to a both a set of beliefs and the related actions based on those beliefs. The separation of belief from obedience and action, which you propose, is foreign to New Testament scripture.

Millions of people believe that Jesus is real, so that is one type of belief, but its not the type that God accepts to save you.
Its when your trust is your belief in Christ as savior, when your belief is this TRUST in Christ, then that is what God accepts (and not water baptism, or keeping commandments).

Not including water baptism and keeping Jesus' commands is damning evidence of a lack of belief. If you believe who Jesus is (more than a king, God in flesh) then you will obey Him. Refusal to obey Him shows that you don't believe He's God and that you don't need to bother with what He tells you to do.

So, Belief is TRUST, when it comes to Faith that God accepts, and trust is a matter of the HEART and not the head. You do math with you head, you do trust with your heart.

If you trust that Jesus is God you will use your head and choose to obey His commands. He commanded that you be water baptized.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[Kidron]

That's a good explanation of what YOU mean by "believing faith." It is not a biblical term.
The word "believe", with its variations, as used in the New Testament, refers to a both a set of beliefs and the related actions based on those beliefs. The separation of belief from obedience and action, which you propose, is foreign to New Testament scripture.
Not including water baptism and keeping Jesus' commands is damning evidence of a lack of belief. If you believe who Jesus is (more than a king, God in flesh) then you will obey Him. Refusal to obey Him shows that you don't believe He's God and that you don't need to bother with what He tells you to do.
If you trust that Jesus is God you will use your head and choose to obey His commands. He commanded that you be water baptized.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

That's a good explanation of what YOU mean by "believing faith." It is not a biblical term.
The word "believe", with its variations, as used in the New Testament, refers to a both a set of beliefs and the related actions based on those beliefs. The separation of belief from obedience and action, which you propose, is foreign to New Testament scripture.


Trying to prove that water baptism or keeping commandments is what saves you or keeps you saved, or is necessary to be born again, is foreign to the Grace of God.



Not including water baptism and keeping Jesus' commands is damning evidence of a lack of belief. If you believe who Jesus is (more than a king, God in flesh) then you will obey Him. Refusal to obey Him shows that you don't believe He's God and that you don't need to bother with what He tells you to do.


Actually no one is saying that you should not be water baptized or keep the sayings of Jesus or Paul , or "present your body a living sacrifice"....so, im not certain whom you think is telling you not to do it.
It isnt me.
All i have said to you is that works follow Salvation, as they are not salvation itself.
They dont generate it, they dont attain it, and they also cant create a negative situation in a believer's life, whereby the believer is no longer justified for eternity by the Blood of Jesus, if a believer is never water baptized and never keeps any commandments.
Commandment keeping and water baptism are not accepted by God to redeem a person or justify a person., ever.
If they were accepted as you try to prove, then Jesus didnt have to die on a Cross.
He could have stayed in heaven and then we just drag everyone to the baptismal pool and dunk them in the "name of the Father", etc.
However that wont save a bovine, JP< so lets get off the saved by water and works theology and instead give Jesus the credit He alone deserves for supplying the blood and the death on behalf of a believer that God accepts on their behalf (Salvation) when they TRUST-(believe the Gospel).


If you trust that Jesus is God you will use your head and choose to obey His commands. He commanded that you be water baptized.


You say that Jesus "commanded" that His born again believers be water baptized?
Um, no.
There isnt a NT scripture which states that Jesus commanded anyone to be water baptized.
Thats your pipe dream., JP
He commanded that you "must" be born again", but that does not happen in water, so, He would not command that someone be baptized.
He also told his original 11 to baptize, but that is not "commanding" a convert, that is giving the Apostles a symbolic procedure to complete after a convert becomes a convert. (born again).

 

[Jim Parker]

Trying to prove that water baptism or keeping commandments is what saves you or keeps you saved, or is necessary to be born again, is foreign to the Grace of God.

And yet one more time; I never said that water baptism and keeping commandments will save anyone.

Please do not write garbage and ascribe it to me.

Actually no one is saying that you should not be water baptized or keep the sayings of Jesus or Paul , or "present your body a living sacrifice"....so, im not certain whom you think is telling you not to do it.
It isnt me.

Then what's your point?

All i have said to you is that works follow Salvation, as they are not salvation itself.
They dont generate it, they dont attain it, and they also cant create a negative situation in a believer's life, whereby the believer is no longer justified for eternity by the Blood of Jesus, if a believer is never water baptized and never keeps any commandments.
Commandment keeping and water baptism are not accepted by God to redeem a person or justify a person., ever.
If they were accepted as you try to prove, then Jesus didnt have to die on a Cross.
He could have stayed in heaven and then we just drag everyone to the baptismal pool and dunk them in the "name of the Father", etc.
However that wont save a bovine, JP< so lets get off the saved by water and works theology and instead give Jesus the credit He alone deserves for supplying the blood and the death on behalf of a believer that God accepts on their behalf (Salvation) when they TRUST-(believe the Gospel).

And I agree.

You say that Jesus "commanded" that His born again believers be water baptized?
Um, no.
There isnt a NT scripture which states that Jesus commanded anyone to be water baptized.
Thats your pipe dream., JP

My "pipe dream is found at Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Having all authority in heaven and earth, Jesus told (that's a command) his disciples to baptize everyone. If you can't see a command to be baptized in that then I can't help you.

He commanded that you "must" be born again", but that does not happen in water,

I am familiar with your personal opinion.

so, He would not command that someone be baptized.

See Mat 28:18-20. He commanded that everyone be baptized.

He also told his original 11 to baptize, but that is not "commanding" a convert, that is giving the Apostles a symbolic procedure to complete after a convert becomes a convert. (born again).

It is a sad happening that the core sacraments of the Christian church, baptism and the Eucharist, have been reduced to mere symbolic gestures by so many of the reformed churches. That is a total departure from what the church (the pillar and foundation of truth) was taught by the apostles and which was uniformly and universally taught by the apostolic churches from the first century until the late 1500's when people began breaking away from the church which Jesus personally founded to reform Christianity according to their own tastes. To do so required rationalizing Jesus' words into fairy tales.

It was also the mark of the turning of the tide which has brought western Europe and the USA to our current post-Christian, neo-pagan societies. It seems that the devil's original lie, "Hath God really said?" still works very well among those who are repulsed by the notion of obedience the the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. How sad will be the day when He asks, "Why did you call me 'Lord" and not do what I told you?"

You break my heart.


my 2 kopecks
Iakov the fool

 

[Kidron]

And yet one more time; I never said that water baptism and keeping commandments will save anyone.
My "pipe dream is found at Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
Having all authority in heaven and earth, Jesus told (that's a command) his disciples to baptize everyone. If you can't see a command to be baptized in that then I can't help you.
It is a sad happening that the core sacraments of the Christian church, baptism and the Eucharist, have been reduced to mere symbolic gestures by so many of the reformed churches.


my 2 kopecks
Iakov the fool

And yet one more time; I never said that water baptism and keeping commandments will save anyone.

1.) Dont you agree that if a person is never water baptized and never follows the commands of Christ, that person is lost?
2.) Or are you saying that if a person says they are saved and are never water baptized or keep the commandments of Christ, they are not really saved.
And if #2, then i'll point out that the dying thief on the cross never touched the water and never kept a commandment.



My "pipe dream is found at Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Having all authority in heaven and earth, Jesus told (that's a command) his disciples to baptize everyone. If you can't see a command to be baptized in that then I can't help you.

There is a reason that the apostle Paul (Apostle to the gentiles) said that Christ didnt send him to baptize, but to preach the gospel.
And like i answered you previously, Jesus told the original 11 to baptize, but never commanded a believer who was converted by them to do it.
This is a very important distinction, as on one hand Jesus is giving his 11 their marching orders, but He is being careful to show you something.
Notice he says "make disciples..'....so, this is Salvation......then, water baptize, which is the symbol of their BEING MADE Disciples.
These are not the same, and if you never understand this distinction, you'll keep believing that water can save, forgive sins, etc.
So, one is God saving them, and 2 is the symbolic act that they have believed.
Now let me show you this., as a way to evolve the understanding.
Mark 16:16....
""""He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.""""

Now you have to get this, and if you do, you'll be free from some of the false ideas<>false doctrine that you hold.

Notice the second part of that scripture......."but he that believes not shall be damned"
Now did you read that?......Maybe you should read it again.
It just told you that you can be baptised and still be DAMNED, (lost) (unsaved), because you didnt BELIEVE.
So, here, Jesus is showing you that you are not to combine water and salvation as if they are the same single act of redemption.
Jesus is showing you that its the believing that God accepts to save you, and if you dont believe you are DAMNED.
Read the verse.
So what this does, is it teaches you that you are be baptized, but you are to understand that the water has no part in your damnation or your salvation, but rather BELIEVING is the ONLY part of that process that ither renders you saved or lost.



It is a sad happening that the core sacraments of the Christian church, baptism and the Eucharist, have been reduced to mere symbolic gestures by so many of the reformed churches.

Yes of course, Jesus Himself said to take communion in rememberance of Him.
Its all symbolic, until someone tries to create the idea that its literal and tries to claim that eating bread and drinking wine that has been blessed, is now transformed into real flesh and blood.
The wine only represents the real blood that Jesus shed, but its the real blood and not the wine that pays for sins.
The bread only represents the body of Christ, who of himself the " living bread who came down from heaven" John 6:51.
Eating the bread is the symbolic act of 'believing" in Christ.
And we as believers are to "show" our faith and remember our Savior and what He did and who He is, by taking communion.
And we should.
Water baptism is similar as it is symbolic of the old man dying and the new born again man coming forth.

 

[ezra]

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; this gets into the can you or cant you lose your salvation . honestly i have studied this out for many years both sides of the fence . my conclusion and this is my personal belief . a person who departs and never make a attempt to return never was truly saved . i had rather do my best to walk with him. than not walk with him. to me it would be like walking into a mine field loaded with bombs ready to go off.

 

[Jim Parker]

[QUOTE="Rollo Tamasi, post: 1133696, member: 3235"]So, you call me a liar and a pretender and speak against what I believe and call it bunk.
I think as Christians we should all clean up our mouths and hearts before we go forward.[/QUOTE]

I think as Christians we should not impose our denominational opinions on Jesus' words as if the denominational doctrine were inspired and inerrant.

And nobody called you a liar or a pretender. I don't agree with your understanding but I certainly do not think you are either a liar or a pretender. I take your comments to be what you believe to be the truth presented without pretense.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

i have studied this out for many years both sides of the fence . my conclusion and this is my personal belief . a person who departs and never make a attempt to return never was truly saved.

You have rightly defined that as your personal belief.

iakov the fool

 

[ezra]

You have rightly defined that as your personal belief.

iakov the fool

and you rightly defined your as what? thus saith the word of God

 

[Kidron]

and you rightly defined your as what? thus saith the word of God

1 John 2:25
Absolutely.
God has promised that if we believe on and trust His Son and become born again, then we are promised eternal life by God who cannot lie.

 

[ezra]

I think as Christians we should not impose our denominational opinions on Jesus' words as if the denominational doctrine were inspired and inerrant.

i agree my denomination i am ordained through gen baptist does believe like i do. .i have studied this and its how i believe .if you or any one else dont agree. then its no skin of my nose.

 

[Jim Parker]

i agree my denomination i am ordained through gen baptist does believe like i do. .i have studied this and its how i believe .if you or any one else dont agree. then its no skin of my nose.

could'a fooled me

 

[ezra]

could'a fooled me

ya know what they say no fool like a old fool . looks like its best i ignore your post .since you seem to have the Bible all wrapped up. what a pious attitude

 

[Jim Parker]

ya know what they say no fool like a old fool . looks like its best i ignore your post .since you seem to have the Bible all wrapped up. what a pious attitude

I have the Bible all wrapped up in the same manner that you do with your pious attitude, my brother.

I just use different ribbon.

Can you agree to disagree or do you insist that you must be right?

iakov the fool