Justification understood

[WIP]

You are getting frustrated and I understand but we need to calm down and get back to the topic of the thread and off of each other. Also, let's remember to follow the forum guidelines instead of preaching our own personal opinions.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Too bad this a man made opinion with no scripture.

Here is what Jesus taught -

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

The principle of being saved, is to believe the message.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

In this scenario, the plant sprang up, because the seed was received into the soil, and continued for a while... as Jesus said, they believed for a while.

If believe = saved

Then believe for a while = saved for a while.


Unless you believe that it is only those who believe to the end, that will be saved?


JLB






JLB

I disagree with your interpretation here.
The believers in Luke 8:13 are emotional hearers such as in Luke 11:27-28.
It is the instability of their belief that causes them to fall away when they are tested.
Not truly saved at all.

 

[Kidron]

Did you use the wisdom of Christ to come up with this?
I leave it to the reader to determine whether the evidence of life supports this notion that believers are imputed with the wisdom of Jesus.

-

Did you use the wisdom of Christ to come up with this?


Interesting tho invalid sarcasm.
However, i'll answer you.
Jesus IS Wisdom, exactly like "God IS Love".
In other words, He is the fullness and the essence.
So, as "Christ IN YOU the hope of glory", Colossians 1:27 states my position in Christ, as he is in me, then all that He is, i have.
Also, your bible tells you to ask God for wisdom and that He will give it to you. ... James 1:5.
So, this shows us that we of ourselves can need wisdom, and therefore God gives it.
And how?......He reveals it inside you, using the Holy Spirit that shows you.
So, that is the wisdom of Jesus, inside you, as i explained.
You called it "imputed", but that is not how i explained it.
I explain it that as, we as believers are so connected to Jesus, " we are bone of his bones flesh of his flesh", Ephesians 5:30... (is how connected we are to him), then it is therefore understood that His wisdom is also connected to us, within.



I leave it to the reader to determine whether the evidence of life supports this notion that believers are imputed with the wisdom of Jesus.


As i explained in response to your other statement.
Ive not said anything about imputed wisdom.
That is your wordplay, not mine.

 

[Drew]

It is the instability of their belief that causes them to fall away when they are tested.
Not truly saved at all.

I don't think you are engaging the basic thrust of JLB's argument. He is correctly pointing out that Jesus says that some indeed believe for a while, and then fall away.

To the extent that "believing in Jesus" means you are "saved" - and I suspect that you would agree with such a statement - what Jesus is saying really does sound a refutation of OSAS. I am not sure what you mean by "instability" in belief.

It certainly seems to me that to argue OSAS, one is forced to do a lot of this prevarication: here a text says people believe and then fall away and you more or less appear to say "No, they didn't really believe at all in the first place".

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't think you are engaging the basic thrust of JLB's argument. He is correctly pointing out that Jesus says that some indeed believe for a while, and then fall away.

To the extent that "believing in Jesus" means you are "saved" - and I suspect that you would agree with such a statement - what Jesus is saying really does sound a refutation of OSAS. I am not sure what you mean by "instability" in belief.

It certainly seems to me that to argue OSAS, one is forced to do a lot of this prevarication: here a text says people believe and then fall away and you more or less appear to say "No, they didn't really believe at all in the first place".

I have correctly pointed out that emotional belief is not the same as heart felt belief.
Your non-OSAS bias has caused you to over look that.

 

[Kidron]

Let me get this right this time. It is the material in parenthesis after the phrase "....to the one who does not work" that you, or someone, has added to what was in the original text.

The original Greek does not have this, or anything like it:

Ok let me help.
First of all there is no original greek manuscripts, so, when you say that what i wrote cant be found in the originals, then your point once again is moot, as there are no original greek texts, no original epistles, etc.
There are copies, only.
There are instead about 30 extant greek manuscripts, tho only a few are used for the creation of all bibles ever created.
And once again, i'll give you the same answer i gave before..
The scriptures i posted are from the Amplified Bible., and the """"quotations""" or [ ] that seem to be freaking you out were put in the Amplified bible by the people who created it., and that would not be me.
If you like, im happy to try post whatever bible version scriptures you use, so that you'll feel comfortable.
Its not a problem......just tell me your Bible version of choice and unless its a really bad translation, then i should be able to use your bible as my resource here in our discussion.
Anything to help you.


K

 

[Kidron]

I don't think you are engaging the basic thrust of JLB's argument. He is correctly pointing out that Jesus says that some indeed believe for a while, and then fall away.
.

-

This would be a belief in the head (comprehension, acknowledgement), rather then a trust of the heart.

like this, Drew...

Romans 10:9
9 : because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord , and believe in your HEART that God raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED,

see it?
believe in your HEART......vs, in your mind.
this is very important to understand, as one is not TRUST, and one IS Trust.

 

[Drew]

I have correctly pointed out that emotional belief is not the same as heart felt belief.
Your non-OSAS bias has caused you to over look that.

First of all, please do not speculate about what you cannot possibly know - the inner state of my mind.

Second, your response here is what I am talking about. You add whatever nuance you need to add to the concept of "belief" in order to sustain your position. You are taking the concept of "belief" and transforming it into "emotional belief", a belief that does not really "count" as "true belief". Nowhere does Jesus say He is talking about "emotional" belief.

If we allow ourselves that kind of latitude, we can make a text say almost anything.

 

[Drew]

This would be a belief in the head (comprehension, acknowledgement), rather then a trust of the heart.

You are doing the exact same thing Rollo is doing - adding a particular nuance to the concept of belief that is simply not stated. That sounds at least a little suspicious.

like this, Drew...

Romans 10:9
9 : because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord , and believe in your HEART that God raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED,

see it?
believe in your HEART......vs, in your mind.
this is very important to understand, as one is not TRUST, and one IS Trust.

Again, like FreeGrace, you are resting your entire justification for discounting texts that appear to refute OSAS on an over-extension of what is said here. You effectively add the following nuance to what is actually written: you assume that this text cannot be read as follows:

because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord , and believe over time in your HEART that God raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED,

This is clearly a possible reading of what Paul means by believed. Now I suspect you are going to say that I am doing the same thing I say you are doing - adding nuance to suit my position. Well, maybe. But I submit to say that one "believes" something certainly can have extended time implications - one does not really believe something unless one believes it over a long period of time. On the other hand, it is possible that "believe" could mean "once you have believed something - even for a second, it counts as believed". I think, that given all the texts that appear to directly refute OSAS, it makes sense to go with the notion that belief has to be consistently there over your life.

 

[Drew]

Ok let me help.
First of all there is no original greek manuscripts, so, when you say that what i wrote cant be found in the originals, then your point once again is moot, as there are no original greek texts, no original epistles, etc.
There are copies, only.

My point remains valid. In the greek versions (admittedly copies of the originals) of Romans, this bit that the people from the Amplified Bible have added, clearly as an act of interpretation and not translation, is simply not there.

If you like, im happy to try post whatever bible version scriptures you use, so that you'll feel comfortable.
Its not a problem......just tell me your Bible version of choice and unless its a really bad translation, then i should be able to use your bible as my resource here in our discussion.
Anything to help you.

I have already checked - the greek manuscripts simply do not contain this phrase "[that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good]". This has been added, it is not in the original. Here are some translations of Romans 4:5 - none of then contain this phrase:

International Standard Version
However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

NET Bible
But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.

New American Standard 1977
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,

American Standard Version
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

Young's Literal Translation
and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness:

None of these translations have that stuff in parentheses - it has been added as a kind of commentary. Yes, the people who put together the Amplified Bible happen to share your interpretation. But it is only that - a comment or interpretation.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

First of all, please do not speculate about what you cannot possibly know - the inner state of my mind.

Second, your response here is what I am talking about. You add whatever nuance you need to add to the concept of "belief" in order to sustain your position. You are taking the concept of "belief" and transforming it into "emotional belief", a belief that does not really "count" as "true belief". Nowhere does Jesus say He is talking about "emotional" belief.

If we allow ourselves that kind of latitude, we can make a text say almost anything.

One can only speculate the inner state of your mind.

 

[Kidron]

You are doing the exact same thing Rollo is doing - adding a particular nuance to the concept of belief that is simply not stated. That sounds at least a little suspicious.
Again, like FreeGrace, you are resting your entire justification for discounting texts that appear to refute OSAS on an over-extension of what is said here. You effectively add the following nuance to what is actually written: you assume that this text cannot be read as follows:
because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord , and believe over time in your HEART that God raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED,
This is clearly a possible reading of what Paul means by believed. Now I suspect you are going to say that I am doing the same thing I say you are doing - adding nuance to suit my position. Well, maybe. But I submit to say that one "believes" something certainly can have extended time implications - one does not really believe something unless one believes it over a long period of time. On the other hand, it is possible that "believe" could mean "once you have believed something - even for a second, it counts as believed". I think, that given all the texts that appear to directly refute OSAS, it makes sense to go with the notion that belief has to be consistently there over your life.

You are doing the exact same thing Rollo is doing - adding a particular nuance to the concept of belief that is simply not stated. That sounds at least a little suspicious.


And once again you are saying i did or implied something,.. but you dont quote me, ...and the reason you dont is because if you did you would not be able to try to prove your position by misquoting me.



Again, like FreeGrace, you are resting your entire justification for discounting texts that appear to refute OSAS on an over-extension of what is said here. You effectively add the following nuance to what is actually written: you assume that this text cannot be read as follows:

because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord , and believe over time in your HEART that God raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED,


Let me show you what is going on here.
You are saying someone quoted a verse , and you call this..."over-extension" because the verse as written does not line up with your personal anti-osas theology.
Also, i dont agree as you said... that one scriptures denies that you can lose your salvation,... but rather i think the Blood Atonement both refutes it and denies it.
I believe that you dont actually understand the Blood Atonement, and that is why you want to try to help it out with your '" good works for salvation" theology.
Drew, rest assured that the Cross and Christ's Blood do not require our help.....they do not require our water baptism or our "enduring to the end", or our "maintaining good works", to redeem us.
Never have, never will.

 

[Kidron]

My point remains valid. In the greek versions (admittedly copies of the originals) of Romans, this bit that the people from the Amplified Bible have added, clearly as an act of interpretation and not translation, is simply not there.


I have already checked - the greek manuscripts simply do not contain this phrase "[that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good]". This has been added, it is not in the original. Here are some translations of Romans 4:5 - none of then contain this phrase:

Yes, the people who put together the Amplified Bible happen to share your interpretation. But it is only that - a comment or interpretation.

My point remains valid. In the greek versions (admittedly copies of the originals) of Romans, this bit that the people from the Amplified Bible have added, clearly as ans act of interpretation and not a translation, is simply not there.


So, your point that the creators of the Amplified Bible used [ ] and inside they added their interpretation.
WHEW.....thank you.
yes, i know, and that is what i wrote, previously.


I have already checked - the greek manuscripts simply do not contain this phrase "[that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good]". This has been added, it is not in the original.
Yes, the people who put together the Amplified Bible happen to share your interpretation. But it is only that - a comment or interpretation.


First of all, you dont read Greek, so, you are using a device that explains the greek in english.
This is an "interpretation", Drew.;-)
Second, the reason i use the Amplified version with i talk to you, is because this version can sometimes help someone who has issues with bible doctrine, so, i thought this would help you.
And as i said before, if you tell me what Bible Version you prefer, i can use yours, unless its junk.
But if that doesn't work for you, then we can stay with the Amplified, as it seems to help you.

 

[Brother Mike]

You are doing the exact same thing Rollo is doing - adding a particular nuance to the concept of belief that is simply not stated. That sounds at least a little suspicious.


Again, like FreeGrace, you are resting your entire justification for discounting texts that appear to refute OSAS on an over-extension of what is said here. You effectively add the following nuance to what is actually written: you assume that this text cannot be read as follows:

because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord , and believe over time in your HEART that God raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED,

This is clearly a possible reading of what Paul means by believed. Now I suspect you are going to say that I am doing the same thing I say you are doing - adding nuance to suit my position. Well, maybe. But I submit to say that one "believes" something certainly can have extended time implications - one does not really believe something unless one believes it over a long period of time. On the other hand, it is possible that "believe" could mean "once you have believed something - even for a second, it counts as believed". I think, that given all the texts that appear to directly refute OSAS, it makes sense to go with the notion that belief has to be consistently there over your life.

The concept Drew is that Jesus is Lord. That has to be a belief.

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 24:48-51 KJV)

Here is a saved person that did not act on that first belief that Jesus is Lord. If Jesus is Lord, you conduct your life as if He is Lord, and Lord over all.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:9-11 KJV)

There are some, that get off and forget they were purged of their old sins, they don't consider what they are called to do in life, they don't put the Lord first in all things. keeping ever mindful that your bought and paid with a price, and have a part, a calling besides just warming a Church pew and typing on some forums, keep you on the straight path to where you shall never fall. Always thinking of the will of God in all things.

What happens if you don't remember your old sins were purged, don't live your life as Jesus being Lord, don't live as if your called by God for a purpose, a part?

Is an entrance still ministered unto you abundantly?

Mike.

 

[JLB]

I disagree with your interpretation here.
The believers in Luke 8:13 are emotional hearers such as in Luke 11:27-28.
It is the instability of their belief that causes them to fall away when they are tested.
Not truly saved at all.

Here is what Luke 11:27-28 says -
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!"
28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

Here is the word of God -

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus said here in verse 12 that the devil "takes away" the word out of their heart, before they can believe... lest they believe and be saved.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

This is clearly not the case in verse 13, the devil was not able to "take away" the word out of their heart, so these in this group did in fact believe.

Are you saying these in verse 13, need to do more than believe to be saved, because the word of God says they in fact did believe?


What do you say?

1. They need to do more than believe, to be saved?
2. They were saved, because they did believe, but only for a while?

JLB

 

[JLB]

I disagree with your interpretation here.
The believers in Luke 8:13 are emotional hearers such as in Luke 11:27-28.
It is the instability of their belief that causes them to fall away when they are tested.
Not truly saved at all.

Here is what Luke 11:27-28 says -
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!"
28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

Hear is the word of God -

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus said here in verse 12 that the devil "takes away" the word out of their heart, before they can believe... lest they believe and be saved.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

This is clearly not the case in verse 13, the devil was not able to "take away" the word out of their heart, so these in this group did in fact believe.

Are you saying these in verse 13, need to do more than believe to be saved, because the word of God says they in fact did believe?


What do you say?

1. They need to do more than believe, to be saved?
2. They were saved, because they did believe, but only for a while?

JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Here is what Luke 11:27-28 says -
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!"
28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

Hear is the word of God -

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus said here in verse 12 that the devil "takes away" the word out of their heart, before they can believe... lest they believe and be saved.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

This is clearly not the case in verse 13, the devil was not able to "take away" the word out of their heart, so these in this group did in fact believe.

Are you saying these in verse 13, need to do more than believe to be saved, because the word of God says they in fact did believe?


What do you say?

1. They need to do more than believe, to be saved?
2. They were saved, because they did believe, but only for a while?

JLB

It seems to me that these emotional believers are people whose belief reaches their head but never reaches their heart.
Would you say there is a difference between such believers or does it not matter?

 

[Drew]

First of all, you dont read Greek, so, you are using a device that explains the greek in english.
This is an "interpretation", Drew.;-)

No, it is a simple fact that the material in parentheses was added by someone; it is not in the Greek manuscripts. Do you deny this? Lest the reader forget, here is what you originally posted:

Romans 4:5
5 But to the one who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good], but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited to them as Righteousness.. (right standing with God).

I just want readers to be aware that someone added the material in the parentheses - "that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good".

The important point, of course, is that this added material may or may not accurately reflect the view of the person who wrote the Greek document used as the basis for translation.

And in this case, I suggest it does not.

Second, the reason i use the Amplified version with i talk to you, is because this version can sometimes help someone who has issues with bible doctrine, so, i thought this would help you.

Let me save you some time. Condescension will not work with me. But since you raise the matter of people who need help with Bible doctrine, let me remind you and others of this little cutie you posted:

Now, if you can get this, if this can be understood, then you will stop trying to use scriptures that are written by Apostles who didnt have the revelation of the Grace of God when they wrote their letters.
And other believers here, who are confused about it, can rest in the finished work of the Cross, and stop being led astray by scriptures posted by others here, that are written by Apostles who at the time of writing them, didnt understand the GOSPEL of the Grace of GOD, YET.

Methinks you are in no position to teach us about Bible doctrine when you hold this highly unorthodox view the effectively throws inerrancy under the bus.

 

[Drew]

No hard feelings people, but I am out and probably will not be back to this site. Best to all.

 

[Sinthesis]

No hard feelings people, but I am out and probably will not be back to this site. Best to all.

That's too bad. This site needs people like you. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.