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Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some.

Dave...

Member
Many people today stop short in their understanding of justification because the larger context does not allow for their "church" doctrines.

Justification cannot be a process because that which justifies us, the righteousness of God is not given in doses. Some make justification process to accommodate works because they don't understand the relationship between works and faith. Works cannot save save you, in part or as a whole, but can only be a result of one who is already saved.

It basically comes down to the order of events. Assuming the 'Who' and 'what' we are putting our faith into is accurate to the truth of God's Word, this is where they stumble, they believe...

Faith = good works = imputed righteousness = justification. Thereby making justification a process depending on your works.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

You can't have both grace and works before justification. You cannot both glory in the blood of Christ and the cross while at the same time disparaging it.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.â€Â

For those of you who think that you are justified by your works, even in combination with faith, Jesus has a test for you, which is basically to bring home the same point that the law require perfect obedience, and you will fail.

Jesus said...

Matthew 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Do you know how hard that it would be to do that? They had up to twenty or more separate books of law that they added to the scripture, and obeyed it all of it, to the letter. Even those scribes and Pharisees will suffer for eternity.

The Bible teaches...

Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = evidenced by good fruit/works This puts works in its proper place, as an evidence.

Faith is evidenced by works, as James tells us, but this is after the fact of justification. Jesus said, "You can tell a tree by it's fruit". The only question left to ask after one initially believes is whether or not ones faith is real. Are we are deceiving ourselves with a faith in idols, another Gospel, another Jesus? That's why Paul tell us to test ourselves daily. ***While works will evidence faith, works are separate and distinct from faith.***

When Jesus tells us that people who don't obey His commandments are not saved, He's not saying that the commandments are necessary to save you, He's saying that if you are giving evidence of a bad tree, you are a bad tree, you are not saved.

Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = evidenced by good fruit/works

***What is faith, Paul?***
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Where are works in that defining of faith? We can see from the rest of the chapter, the works come as a result of faith, a faith that has already justified us.

Understanding this, we can place the statement by James within it's proper context, a faith without works IS dead, and proves what Jesus said that the a bad tree does not bare good fruit, and a good tree does bare good fruit. Also proving what Jesus said, that those who are His will obey His commandments. You will also see that all the scripture posted below about justification that you might usually ignore all fits together perfectly with James staements when we understand this within it's proper context. What we are are not doing is putting the cart before the horse, namely, works before justification simply because works are an evidence of faith, thus forcing justification to be a process depending on our works.

Justification is a one time act that comes the moment we believe.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Your works will be an indicator of where your faith is at. But make no mistake about it, it's faith ( Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ) that saves. Because it is only by faith ( Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ) that we are imputed with the righteousness of God. How do we know if our faith is real and we are justified by the blood of Christ on the cross? You can tell a tree by it's fruit. Works come after justification.

Faith = good works = imputed righteousness = justification.

This puts you under the law.

Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = evidenced by good fruit/works This puts works in its proper place, as an evidence.

This puts you under Grace.

------------------------------------

Justification before God

Promised in Christ.


Isaiah 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Is the act of God.

Isaiah 50:8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

UNDER THE LAW

Requires perfect obedience.


Leviticus 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Man cannot attain to.

Job 9:2-3 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.

Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Psalms 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

Psalms 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 9:31-32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

UNDER THE GOSPEL

Is not of works.


Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Is not of faith and works united.

Acts 15:1-29 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. ...

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Galatians 2:14-21 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. ...

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Is by faith alone.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Is of grace.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 5:17-21 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ...

In the name of Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

By imputation of Christ's righteousness.

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

By the blood of Christ.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

By the resurrection of Christ.

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Blessedness of.

Psalms 32:1-2 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Frees from condemnation.

Isaiah 50:8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me.

Isaiah 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Romans 8:33-34 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Entitles to an inheritance.

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ensures glorification.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The wicked shall not attain to.

Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

BY FAITH

Revealed under the old dispensation.


Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Excludes boasting.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Does not make void the law.

Romans 3:30-31 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Typified.

Zechariah 3:4-5 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

Illustrated.

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Exemplified.

Abraham,
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Paul,
Philippians 3:8-9 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 
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Dave... said:
Your works will be an indicator of where your faith is at. But make no mistake about it, it's faith ( Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ) that saves. ...

Thus, without works, you have no faith.

Faith alone does not save.

"So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." James 2:17

Can it be said any more clearly? Faith alone does NOT save! Dead faith DOES NOT SAVE!

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Thus, without works, you have no faith.

Faith alone does not save.

"So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." James 2:17

Can it be said any more clearly? Faith alone does NOT save! Dead faith DOES NOT SAVE!

Regards
When you understand justification/salvation, then you can speak about works. Works comes AFTER justification/salvation.

How much clearer can the scriptures state that:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

Good works does not save anyone, only faith saves.
AFTER FAITH comes good works.

GOOD WORKS IS THE EVIDENCE OF FAITH: THEREFORE FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD, BUT WORKS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JUSTIFICATION/SALVATION. IT ONLY SHOWS THAT ONE HAS BEEN SAVED.
 
The works are proof of the faith, not part of...other wise we could boast we had some part.

Ephesians 2:8-9
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

As for you james 2:17 quote, the context is faith that there is a God but dont do anything about. Hence vs. 19

So if we have the faith in Jesus Christ payment for our sins and acccept him alone as our sacrifice, then good works will follow.

John had the problem with the pharasees, they believed in God but their salvation was thought to be in how religious they were.

Matthew 3:7-9
(7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
(8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
(9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
 
Atonement said:
Good post you two :smt038

Thank you. The unity of the believers and the fellowship that the body of Christ has with the Lord, and with each other is an amazing thing.

You might like to compare our skull caps. Mine was taken the Christmas after my accident in August 2004. The "buger rag" covers the hole in my head, but the eye patch is in the Christmas spirit. :-D

PostAccident122504.jpg
 
The works are proof of the faith, not part of...other wise we could boast we had some part.

Exactly. And if the fruit is rotten, then the faith was not real, the imputed righteousness was never given, then we know that there was no justification before God. This is one of many reasons why I know that a person cannot lose their salvation, but only be exposed as one who has never had it.

Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God (1 Corinthians 4:7). We could not produce one good work unless God himself was the source of it (John 15:5). Without Him, we can do nothing. If you are not saved, you cannot produce a good work, only filthy rags. Justification is instantaneous if the faith is real. God already knows if the faith is real or not because He's the One that gives it to us. It's only us who need to be safeguarded against self deceit.
 
Solo, I like the cap man.. Hehe.. That pic was taken after at the gym ealier this year. I usally wear a beannie during the winter months. Sorry to hijack the thread..

Back On topic: Dave good post, but how can we tell if somone's fruit is rotten?
 
Solo said:
When you understand justification/salvation, then you can speak about works. Works comes AFTER justification/salvation.

How much clearer can the scriptures state that:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

Yawn. NO WORKS, NO FAITH...

If you have no evidence of your faith by works, then you don't have faith. Thus, a faith without works is dead. How many times are you going to deny Sacred Scriptures clear sayings?

Without submitting our selves to Christ, without faith working through love, you do not have faith that saves...

"if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

Without love, Paul says we are NOTHING... Certainly not saved...

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Yawn. NO WORKS, NO FAITH...

If you have no evidence of your faith by works, then you don't have faith. Thus, a faith without works is dead. How many times are you going to deny Sacred Scriptures clear sayings?

Without submitting our selves to Christ, without faith working through love, you do not have faith that saves...

"if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

Without love, Paul says we are NOTHING... Certainly not saved...

Regards

What comes first, Works or Faith?

Faith without Works is dead, meaning that one does not have saving faith without the good Works following. One cannot get saved by doing Works.
Roman Catholics get taught that one must jump through hoops to get salvation, and then they are never assured that they are saved, and will not know until after they die. What a shame.
 
I agree with the OP. Let me say one thing though:

Faith alone does not save.

"So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." James 2:17

True, but perhaps better stated "Real faith does save, but faith is not real if it is without evidencing works." Because from a Biblical perspective: if you believe you will obey.

I have seen that several people have already picked up on that in here though.
 
francisdesales

God does not need to wait to see if your faith is real or not before you are imputed with His righteousness and justified. He supplies the faith, and never will He give us faith and not follow through with perseverance and good works, which are also from Him. He justifies you the moment you believe by imputing you with His righteousness. Remember, Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). It all of God, and He always finished what He starts (1 Peter 1:23, John 10:28-29).

Repentance is a gift from God; Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25 etc.

Faith is a gift from God; 1 Corinthians 2:5, Romans 12:3, Ephesians 2:8, Philippians 1:29 etc.

Perseverance is a gift from God; Philippians 1:6, 1 Peter 1:5 etc.

As Ephesians 2:10 clearly states, your good works are already prepared for you to walk in. For without Him you can do nothing (John 15:5). Why Boast as if you have done something and rob God of His deserved glory, when in fact you receive everything (1 Corinthians 4:7). Praise God for these Fruits that He has given us (Philippians 1:11).

Look at James 2:23-24 closely. From the Macarthur Study Bible

"This does not contradict Paul's clear teaching that Abraham was justified before God by grace alone through faith alone (Romans 3:20, Romans 4:1-25, Galatians 3:6,11)

James could not mean that Abraham was constituted righteous before God because of his own works because...

1) James already stressed that salvation is a gracious gift (James 1:17-18).

2) In the middle of this disputed passage (v23), James quoted Genesis 15:6, which forcefully claims that God credited righteousness to Abraham solely on basis of his faith (also see Romans 1:17; Romans 3:24; Romans 4:1-25).

3) The work that James said justified Abraham was his offering up of Isaac (Genesis 22:9,12), an event that occurred many years after he first exercised faith and was declared righteous before God (Genesis 12:1-7; Genesis 15:6). Instead, Abraham's offering of Isaac demonstrated the genuineness of his faith and the reality of his justification before God. James is emphasizing the vindication before others of mans claims to salvation. James' teaching perfectly compliments Paul's writing; salvation is determined by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) and demonstrated by faithfulness to obey God's will alone (Ephesians 2:10)." (JMSB)

Hey Jason, it's good to hear from you.

In Christ Jesus

Dave
 
It is also critical to understand that James is speaking of justification before men, Paul is speaking of justification before God. Like i stated earlier, God knows who is really saved and who is not because He is the Auther and finisher of our faith. Our works/fruit, aside from benefiting the whole Body ,are a gage for us to use to know where our faith is at. That's what James was speaking of, not justification before God as Paul was speaking of, but justification before men and ourselves.

Read here...

...Now immediately everything in us that's evangelical goes "Hold it right there. Justified by works?" What does it mean to be justified? It means to be considered right with God. "You mean to say Abraham was considered to be right with God by works?" Someone blows the whistle and says foul, this cannot be possible. And invariably where they take us is to Romans 4, so let's go there. Romans chapter 4, now I want you to follow very carefully as I just hit some key highlights here. In Romans chapter 4 the discussion is about Abraham. Paul starts out like this, "What shall we say then, that Abraham our father," he uses the same phrase, "as pertaining to the flesh as found, if Abraham were justified by works, he had something of which to glory, but not before God."

Now wait a minute. James says Abraham was justified by works. Paul says if Abraham were justified by works, he would have something to glory of but not before God. What does the scripture say? Verse 3, "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace but of debt." In other words, if he earned it it wouldn't be grace it would be something God owed him. "To him that works not but believes on Him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." So what Paul says is Abraham wasn't justified by works before God, he was justified by faith. He was justified by grace, justified by faith not works.

And he goes on to talk about that in verse 6. He says that David also describes the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputes righteousness apart from works, saying blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered, blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin or put sin to his account. So in verses 1 to 8, Paul says Abraham was justified by faith not works.

Then starting in verse 9 he says he was justified by grace not law. And all the way down through verse 17 he makes the point that Abraham was justified by grace, by grace. Comes to verse 16, "It is of faith that it might be by grace," by faith and grace, that's his whole emphasis. First, justified by faith. Then the emphasis turns to grace. And in the third section, verse...well, it's about verse 18 and following, he says that he was justified by divine power not human efforts, really saying the same thing over and over again. It was God's power, it was God's work in his behalf. The same power that raised Jesus from the dead, verse 24. The whole argument of Romans 4, and I wish we had more time to spend in it, the whole argument is Abraham was saved by faith, Abraham was saved by grace, Abraham was saved by divine power not human effort. That is a very strong statement on salvation without works. It is parallel to what we just read in Galatians chapter 3 where it very clearly says that Abraham believed God, he is the father of the faithful...that is those who believe. It says in verse 6 of Galatians 3, "Abraham believed God, it was counted to him for righteousness." And verse 11, "No man is justified by the law, the just shall live by...what?...by faith."

So, you have very clear teaching in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 that Abraham was justified by faith, grace. Grace is God's unmerited favor in graciously giving a man salvation because he believes. And even the faith of that man is a gift of God, according to Ephesians chapter 2.

So, on the one hand Paul seems to be saying..and rightly is saying..salvation, justification by grace. Here comes James. James says the same man, same illustration, Abraham was justified by works. How do we understand that? All right, notice Romans 4:2 and let me give you a distinction. It says in Romans 4:2 that Abraham, if Abraham were justified by works, he would have something to glory about. In other words, he could pat himself on the back if he made it in by his own works. But...mark this little part of the verse...not before God. Now get this, you cannot be justified by works before God. Mark that. You cannot be justified by works before God. Only by faith and righteousness is then imputed to you, verse 6, verse 11, verse 22, verse 23. You can only be justified by faith and when you put your faith in God in Christ, God grants you an imputed righteousness. He puts righteousness to your account. The idea is that man is bankrupt...spiritually bankrupt, morally bankrupt. He puts his faith in Christ and God deposits in his bankrupt account all necessary righteousness to make him suitable to dwell in the presence of God.

Now this happened to Abraham. In Genesis 15 and verse 3 and following to verse 6. Paul quotes that in the third verse of Romans 4. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness." In Genesis chapter 15, listen now carefully, Genesis 15:3 to 6, it says that. Abraham believed God and righteousness was put to his account. God deposited righteousness. In the words of Isaiah 61:10, God clothed him with the robe of righteousness. God gave him his righteousness as a gift. Now mark that.

When you put your faith in Jesus Christ, righteousness is imputed to you, that is it is deposited to you. You don't have it. You don't earn it. You receive it as a gift from God. That's the marvel of salvation by grace through faith. Like all of us who are bankrupt, we stand before God with nothing in our spiritual account, God through our faith acting in response to His sovereign grace deposits in our account the very righteousness which He possesses and we stand right with Him. Abraham experienced that. This is the sole condition of salvation. It is said in Genesis 15:6 he believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

So, Abraham then is the father of all who believe because it was his believing that brought about righteousness. When he believed, God gave him righteousness. That's just the way it's always been. Old Testament salvation, New Testament salvation, very same thing. Whether it's Abraham or you, it doesn't matter, it's all the same. Whether it's on that side of the cross or this side of the cross, you believe God. What do you have to believe about God? As much as God has revealed about Himself. At whatever point in the unfolding revelation of God a person lived, they were to believe God to the point of that revelation. Abraham obviously didn't have the New Testament, he didn't even have the Old Testament. The fullness of God's revelation was not yet closed. He didn't enjoy all that we enjoy but he believed what God had revealed. And that's the essence of saving faith.

There's no salvation by works. Back in Romans chapter 3 it says in verse 20, "By the deeds of the law will no flesh be justified in His sight." On the other hand, it says in verse 24, "Justified freely by His grace." So, now mark this, we are made right with God by His grace. He dispenses that grace to us. We respond in believing faith to that sovereign grace and we're saved. No works involved.

You say, "Well, does James believe that?" Sure he believes that. In fact, in James 2, look at verse 23, in James 2:23, he quotes the very same scripture. Now follow me on this. The scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God." So James understands that passage in Genesis 15:6 and he understands exactly what it means. He is quoting the very same text Paul quotes in Romans 4. Now listen to what I say to you. Abraham was justified before God, that's the key idea, before God through faith.

You say, "Well, how could God justify Abraham? How could He just cover his sins and forgive him?" Because Christ would in the future die for the sins of Abraham just as Christ in the past has died for the sins of every believing person. He believed in the Lord.

But when was that in his life? That takes us all the way back to the beginning when God called him in Ur of the Chaldees and said, "Get out of this land, leave your people and go to a land that I'll show you," back in Genesis chapter 12. He was probably about 75 years old at the time of his calling. And he believed God. He picked up everything. Left a pagan land. Followed his faith in the true God. I don't know how much revelation he had, probably a very little bit. But God had sovereignly worked on his heart. There was a response of faith. He started the walk of faith, the life of faith. And at that particular point, he was granted righteousness.

You say, "Well, then what does James mean when it says here in James, `Was not Abraham our father justified by works?'" Listen to this. Abraham was justified by faith before God but he was justified by works before men. Do you see the difference? That's the whole point James is making. Works are the only way his faith can be seen and verified as real saving faith by himself or any other man. The only way I can know I'm genuinely redeemed is to see the pattern of my godliness, the evidence. The only way you can know it is to see my life. And it is this justification before men that James has in mind. Paul was emphasizing justification before God. James is emphasizing the vindication of a man's claim to salvation before others....

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/59-16.HTM
 
The most serious problem these verses pose is the question of what James 2:24 means: "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." Some imagine that this contradicts Paul in Romans 3:28: "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." John Calvin explained this apparent difficulty:


It appears certain that [James] is speaking of the manifestation, not of the imputation of righteousness, as if he had said, Those who are justified by faith prove their justification by obedience and good works, not by a bare and imaginary semblance of faith. In one word, he is not discussing the mode of justification, but requiring that the justification of all believers shall be operative. And as Paul contends that men are justified without the aid of works, so James will not allow any to be regarded as Justified who are destitute of good works. . . . Let them twist the words of James as they may, they will never extract out of them more than two propositions: That an empty phantom of faith does not justify, and that the believer, not contented with such an imagination, manifests his justification by good works. [Henry Beveridge, trans., John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion 3:17:12 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1966 reprint), 2: 115.]


James is not at odds with Paul. "They are not antagonists facing each other with crossed swords; they stand back to back, confronting different foes of the gospel." [Alexander Ross, "The Epistle of James and John," The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1954), 53.] In 1:17-18, James affirmed that salvation is a gift bestowed according to the sovereign will of God. Now he is stressing the importance of faith's fruit--the righteous behavior that genuine faith always produces. Paul, too, saw righteous works as the necessary proof of faith.

Those who imagine a discrepancy between James and Paul rarely observe that it was Paul who wrote, "Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!" (Rom. 6:15); and "Having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness" (v. 18). Thus Paul condemns the same error James is exposing here. Paul never advocated any concept of dormant faith.

When Paul writes, "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight," (Rom. 3:20),


he is combatting a Jewish legalism which insisted upon the need for works to be justified; James insists upon the need for works in the lives of those who have been justified by faith. Paul insists that no man can ever win justification through his own efforts. . . . James demands that a man who already claims to stand in right relationship with God through faith must by a life of good works demonstrate that he has become a new creature in Christ. With this Paul thoroughly agreed. Paul was rooting out 'works' that excluded and destroyed saving faith; James was stimulating a sluggish faith that minimized the results of saving faith in daily life. [D. Edmond Hiebert, The Epistle of James (Chicago: Moody, 1979), 175.]


James and Paul both echo Jesus' preaching. Paul's emphasis is an echo of Matthew 5:3: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." James's teaching has the ring of Matthew 7:21: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." Paul represents the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount; James the end of it. Paul declares that we are saved by faith without the deeds of the law. James declares that we are saved by faith, which shows itself in works. Both James and Paul view good works as the proof of faith--not the path to salvation.

James could not be more explicit. He is confronting the concept of a passive, false "faith," which is devoid of the fruits of salvation. He is not arguing for works in addition to or apart from faith. He is showing why and how, true, living faith always works. He is fighting against dead orthodoxy and its tendency to abuse grace.

The error James assails is faith without works; justification without sanctification; salvation without new life.

Again, James echoes the Master Himself, who insisted on a theology of lordship that involved obedience, not lip-service. Jesus chided the disobedient ones who had attached themselves to Him in name only: "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46). Verbal allegiance, He said, will get no one to heaven: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21).

That is in perfect harmony with James: "Prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves" (1:22); for "faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself" (2:17).

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/IA-james2.htm


Perseverance is a fruit/work of a truly saved person (1 Peter 3:5).

Just as good works/fruit manifest a true faith, the lack of the same manifests the opposite. The same can be said for perseverance...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
 
Dave... said:
It is also critical to understand that James is speaking of justification before men, Paul is speaking of justification before God.

Dave,

Why do you think James was speaking of justification before men? The example he uses, Abraham, and the event he refers to (the sacrifice of Isaac) was witnessed by no one but God, Abraham, and Isaac! Which man did Abraham justify himself in front of?

Secondly, James earlier asks the question that is applicable to all ages in the first part of James 2. He asks "what would you do"? if a rich man came into your midst, vs. a poor man... James, naturally, declares that the royal law is to be followed and the POOR man is to be given an equal seating. Again, this is not being justified before man, but before God.

If you want to note the difference between what Paul and James are saying, you are going to have to note that Paul's definition of faith is more broad and encompassing - often times, including the act of love or repentance within the act of faith (like when he says "man LIVES by faith" or "faith to faith")- while James narrows the definition of faith to include only an intellectual understanding (even the devil believes the God exists!). James says this intellectual faith is not enough - we must add love to our faith to be effective and salvific faith. Thus, James is correcting the libertine misinterpretation of Paul. Elsewhere, Paul says the same thing in 1 Cor 13:2 or Gal 5:6... Peter also talks about adding virtue to our faith in Christ in 2 Peter.

The problem is the definition of faith. Once that is defined and understood, I think many more people will agree with each other.

Regards
 
Why do you think James was speaking of justification before men? The example he uses, Abraham, and the event he refers to (the sacrifice of Isaac) was witnessed by no one but God, Abraham, and Isaac! Which man did Abraham justify himself in front of?

It is for others and ourselves. "...Like i stated earlier, God knows who is really saved and who is not because He is the Author and finisher of our faith. Our works/fruit, aside from benefiting the whole Body ,are a gage for us to use to know where our faith is at. " James even recognized that justification before God is a result of Jesus' imputed righteousness by faith, for the first moment he believed, "it was accounted to him for righteousness."

James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.â€ÂAnd he was called the friend of God.

James was dealing with people who believed that they were saved, but did not show evidence of it. He was teaching them to look at themselves and others. If you read the context you will see this.

Secondly, James earlier asks the question that is applicable to all ages in the first part of James 2. He asks "what would you do"? if a rich man came into your midst, vs. a poor man... James, naturally, declares that the royal law is to be followed and the POOR man is to be given an equal seating. Again, this is not being justified before man, but before God.

Again, revealing all of them to themselves in light of the fact that a good tree bares good fruit.

These people believed faith = imputed righteousness = justification = nothing. This is antinomianism and not true to the Gospel. James wanted them to see that they were giving evidence that they were not saved.

Paul was dealing with this... Faith = works = imputed righteousness = justification. Which is false. Works cannot save you.

They were both defending the truth of God's Word, which is...

Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = good works/fruit

The problem is the definition of faith. Once that is defined and understood, I think many more people will agree with each other.

Works are separate from faith. They go hand in hand, but they are separate.

Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = good works/fruit
 
Dave said:
God knows who is really saved and who is not because He is the Author and finisher of our faith. Our works/fruit, aside from benefiting the whole Body ,are a gage for us to use to know where our faith is at. " James even recognized that justification before God is a result of Jesus' imputed righteousness by faith, for the first moment he believed, "it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Yes, God knows who is saved and He knows who is justified in His eyes. That goes without saying. But you make the distinction between Paul and James in the different types of justification. In both cases, I would say they are the same in that God is the author and finisher of our faith AND our works. Works do NOT automatically come as if on a conveyor belt. We can do NO GOOD without Christ! Thus, justification is before God. And of course, works of love are an outward sign of our faith - thus, both are required for salvation.

I do not believe in "imputed righteousness" because God changes what He declares. If someone is declared righteous, that person IS righteous in the eyes of the only One Who matters - God.


Dave said:
James was dealing with people who believed that they were saved, but did not show evidence of it. He was teaching them to look at themselves and others. If you read the context you will see this.

I agree - and that faith, by James definition, was not enough to be saved. One had to show that faith through their actions of love. Without expression, faith is dead and worthless. James himself says faith cannot save without works of love.

Dave said:
Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = good works/fruit ...

Works are separate from faith. They go hand in hand, but they are separate.

The mathematical equation does not match your second line. This, as I mentioned before, is a definitional error. If we take Paul's more broad view of faith, (he does, by the way, sometimes uses a more narrow definition, which makes Paul a bit more confusing sometimes) I think we Catholics can agree on much of what you said. A man is saved by faith IF we define faith as one that is displayed by works of love, repentance, hope, and perseverance. We will be judged by what we DO - in other words, our faith working in love (says Paul in Galatians). However, when we use James more narrow definition of faith in James 2, where works MUST be added to be salvific, then we cannot say that faith alone saves. James absolutely and positively denies this. Thus, without works of love, NO ONE will be saved.

And naturally, if we include works of love and perseverance into the definition of faith, we COULD say that faith "alone" saves... However, it is telling to note that Scriptures NEVER says this... Thus, we shouldn't use such a formula, either.

We should say that faith working in love saves... As nothing else matters (Gal 5:6)

Regards
 
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