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Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some.

unred typo said:
So glad you asked. Believe the gospel, Solo. What does it mean to believe? What is the gospel?

If your doctor says, “I have some good news,(gospel) Solo. I have a cure for your terminal illness. Since we‘re friends, I‘ll give you my services for free.â€Â
Solo says, “Great, I was scared there was no cure. What must I do to be saved?â€Â
Doctor: “Just believe in me. I’ve been to Medical school and I know what to do to save you.â€Â
Solo says, “I do believe in you, Doc. I have unshakable faith in you alone.â€Â
Doctor: “Good. Now, what you need to do…â€Â
Solo, turning to leave, “Wonderful, I feel better already! You’re a miracle worker! Bye now! I‘m going on a cruise to celebrate!â€Â
Doctor: “Wait, I haven’t given you the cure, the diet, the prescriptions,…Solo!… your salvation is in following my advice…aww, too late, he‘s gone…â€Â
Sad, isn’t it?
:crying: :crying: :crying:
What is the Gospel that one might believe to be saved?
 
Solo said:
What is the Gospel that one might believe to be saved?



The gospel of the kingdom, the Law of Christ, the new covenant in his blood requires that you love one another and your God with all your heart and whenever you break this law of love, that you repent and come to the Father in faith, pleading the blood of Christ to cover your sin.

Are you skipping over my posts? I thought I was very specific.
:roll:
 
unred typo said:



The gospel of the kingdom, the Law of Christ, the new covenant in his blood requires that you love one another and your God with all your heart and whenever you break this law of love, that you repent and come to the Father in faith, pleading the blood of Christ to cover your sin.

Are you skipping over my posts? I thought I was very specific.
:roll:
I am just waiting to see if you will give any Scripture to support your claims. It would be interesting if you would explain how one is to be saved according to what Jesus and the Apostles taught.
Thanks.
 
Solo said:
I am just waiting to see if you will give any Scripture to support your claims. It would be interesting if you would explain how one is to be saved according to what Jesus and the Apostles taught.
Thanks.

Sorry for the delay, my computer lost the connection, (poor service here).

Here are just a few:
Luke 10:26-28 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how read you?
And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.
And he said unto him, You have answered right: this do, and you shall live.


Matthew 28:19-20 Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.



Luke 6:35-37 But love you your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Be you therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Judge not, and you shall not be judged: condemn not, and you shall not be condemned: forgive, and you shall be forgiven:


1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.



Luke 13:22
Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'


Romans 2:6-7 (God),Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, (he will reward) eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (he will give) indignation and wrath,
 
unred typo said:
Sorry for the delay, my computer lost the connection, (poor service here).

Here are just a few:
Luke 10:26-28 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how read you?
And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.
And he said unto him, You have answered right: this do, and you shall live.


Matthew 28:19-20 Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.



Luke 6:35-37 But love you your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Be you therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Judge not, and you shall not be judged: condemn not, and you shall not be condemned: forgive, and you shall be forgiven:


1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.



Luke 13:22
Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'


Romans 2:6-7 (God),Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, (he will reward) eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (he will give) indignation and wrath,

At what point of keeping the commandments and not sinning does the Holy Spirit indwell the keeper of the commandments and one become saved?
 
Solo said:
At what point of keeping the commandments and not sinning does the Holy Spirit indwell the keeper of the commandments and one become saved?

When I first read your question, I was about to write that I didn’t know, but as I wrote the Spirit reminded me of so many verses that applied to this that I knew, it sounds like I had known all along but I really just didn’t realize I did know a pretty big chuck of the truth of the matter until now. It might need some honing down.

The Holy Spirit indwells us all when we love one another and leaves when we choose to live in obvious unrepentant sin. Then, the Spirit tries to convict us of our sin and pleads with us to return to the Lord. We are all born as children of God, but when we become sin-aware, we eventually ‘die’ in our sin by being blotted from the book of life by the handwriting against us.

When we repent, the precious blood of Christ erases the list of sin against us and our names appear on the book as they were, fresh and clean as the new name of a baby just born. If we fall into sin unintentionally, but continue to walk in the light of love for God and one another, our names are constantly washed of any sins that we are not aware of.

If we sin willfully, the blood doesn’t remain to wash away our sin and we must repent of that sin or sins, and then the blood will cleanse us of all unrighteousness, unless it is a sin unto death and our chances to repent are finished. There are sins so serious and grave that they are unpardonable, but it isn’t just a single sin but embracing an attitude of rebellion, ridicule and resentment against God and his commands. I think it is a pretty good indication that if you’re still alive, you haven’t committed this sin(s).

At what point a person is born again, I don’t know but God knows and the person will know. They might not publicly confess it, since it is quite a precious pearl to cast before swine. If this person rebels against God, the Bible says it is impossible to renew them to repentance, but with God, we know all things are possible with prayer. They may lose significant rewards but be saved, so as by fire and have to endure a period of agony as their dross is burned away. We are ‘saved’ when we reach the other shore and stand before the King and he says, “well done, good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your Lord.â€Â

We can have assurance of that day when we continue to walk in the straight and narrow way and in fellowship with God on a daily basis. Keep your eye on the prize, and your heart in the Lord, as Paul said many times in many ways.

:smt055
 
Solo said:
At what point of keeping the commandments and not sinning does the Holy Spirit indwell the keeper of the commandments and one become saved?

Solo,

If I may interject.

It appears that you and unred are using different definitions of "being saved". Remember, the Bible uses "being saved" in the past tense, the present, and the future tense.

Our "being saved" in the past did not require ANY works on our part. But will we remain in that status? We know we are in Christ when we obey His commandments. That is how we know we are "being saved" today. But our past proclamation that "Jesus is Lord", our acceptance of His Lordship in our lives - that which brought about a new creation - was entirely without any obedience to God's commandments (except the need to repent - a gift from God as well).

Perhaps that is the misunderstanding that lies between the two of you?

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Perhaps that is the misunderstanding that lies between the two of you?

Hi Joe! :smt039

I’m not sure at what point a person has gotten to the point that they are a viable birth, in the spiritual sense. I think it varies from person to person. The problem is that we can only know from a person’s actions, like the wind moving the tree leaves, and maybe some people are just shaking their own trees. :wink:
 
unred typo said:
Hi Joe! :smt039

I’m not sure at what point a person has gotten to the point that they are a viable birth, in the spiritual sense. I think it varies from person to person. The problem is that we can only know from a person’s actions, like the wind moving the tree leaves, and maybe some people are just shaking their own trees. :wink:

Yes, I agree. Only one's actions will tell us what is in their heart.

Regards
 
unred typo said:
Solo said:
At what point of keeping the commandments and not sinning does the Holy Spirit indwell the keeper of the commandments and one become saved?
When I first read your question, I was about to write that I didn’t know, but as I wrote the Spirit reminded me of so many verses that applied to this that I knew, it sounds like I had known all along but I really just didn’t realize I did know a pretty big chuck of the truth of the matter until now. It might need some honing down.

The Holy Spirit indwells us all when we love one another and leaves when we choose to live in obvious unrepentant sin. Then, the Spirit tries to convict us of our sin and pleads with us to return to the Lord. We are all born as children of God, but when we become sin-aware, we eventually ‘die’ in our sin by being blotted from the book of life by the handwriting against us.

When we repent, the precious blood of Christ erases the list of sin against us and our names appear on the book as they were, fresh and clean as the new name of a baby just born. If we fall into sin unintentionally, but continue to walk in the light of love for God and one another, our names are constantly washed of any sins that we are not aware of.

If we sin willfully, the blood doesn’t remain to wash away our sin and we must repent of that sin or sins, and then the blood will cleanse us of all unrighteousness, unless it is a sin unto death and our chances to repent are finished. There are sins so serious and grave that they are unpardonable, but it isn’t just a single sin but embracing an attitude of rebellion, ridicule and resentment against God and his commands. I think it is a pretty good indication that if you’re still alive, you haven’t committed this sin(s).

At what point a person is born again, I don’t know but God knows and the person will know. They might not publicly confess it, since it is quite a precious pearl to cast before swine. If this person rebels against God, the Bible says it is impossible to renew them to repentance, but with God, we know all things are possible with prayer. They may lose significant rewards but be saved, so as by fire and have to endure a period of agony as their dross is burned away. We are ‘saved’ when we reach the other shore and stand before the King and he says, “well done, good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your Lord.â€Â

We can have assurance of that day when we continue to walk in the straight and narrow way and in fellowship with God on a daily basis. Keep your eye on the prize, and your heart in the Lord, as Paul said many times in many ways.

:smt055
I will take this a small piece at a time to try and explain with scripture what is correct for our edification. First, the Holy Spirit indwells each believer at the point of one being born again.

Jesus said that in order to enter the Kingdom of God, one must be born again.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8

Jesus tells us that those that are born of the flesh cannot see the Kingdom of God unless they are also born of the Spirit. Those that are born of the Spirit are no longer of the flesh, but now have the Holy Spirit living inside of them according to Paul in Romans 8. Paul explains that those who are in Christ Jesus, who have been born again, are no longer in the flesh, but are in the Spirit. Those that have the Spirit indwelling them from the point of being born again are children of God, while those that do not have the Spirit of God indwelling them are not children of God, but are condemned. Jesus explains the condemnation that all are under until they are born again in John 3. Paul also records that there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:1-17

How is one born again? Jesus says it best in John 3.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:17-21

Does the Holy Spirit ever leave us? No. Believers are born again and are now born of the flesh and born of the Spirit. Once believers are born of the Spirit, born again, the Holy Spirit resides within them sealing them until the day of redemption. Paul explains to the Ephesians that believers have been purchased through the blood of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit of promise was given, keeping the believer as an earnest payment until the day of redemption.

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:10-14

What happens to a born again believer if he falls into sin? Does such a one become unborn again? No. Does such a one loose the Holy Spirit of promise? No. What is the result?

Each believer is the temple of God. God the Spirit indwells each believer, and the Holy Spirit seals the believer until the day of redemption. The Bible tells believers not to quench the Holy Spirit. Quenching the Spirit allows one to ignore the Spirit, and to live a carnal life. A believer is building upon the foundation that was laid by Jesus Christ either wood, hay, and stubble; or a believer is building upon that foundation gold, silver, and precious stones. The final building will be tried by fire, and the wood, hay, and stubble will burn up, but the gold, silver, and precious stones will remain. Look at what Paul told the believers at Corinth.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

One will notice that a believer may build upon the foundation of Jesus Christ that which is done in the Spirit or that which is done in the flesh. Those things that are done in the Spirit will remain, and the believer will be rewarded; but those things that are done in the flesh will be burned up and the believer will suffer loss. But he himself shall be saved! Notice that a believer's works will perish and the believer will suffer a loss of reward, yet the believer will be saved. The Holy Spirit dwells within every believer until the day of redemption, at which time the believer will enter into the Kingdom of God.
 
Excellent, Dave… I’m proud of you. You refuted your previous argument better than I did. Remember, the universal bondage thing was ‘your’ idea:

I never said that there wasn't a universal bondage. It's sad that you need to play these games. If you remember (reach into that suppressed info compartment in your mind), you were trying to prove universal governmental atonement by using Isaiah 53.

Who went astray, and how many did not go astray? Whose iniquity was laid on him?

No one seems to be left out there. Whose sins are not covered under this provision, Dave…?

And then when you have been shown to be in error, you play the devil's game of misinformation, deliberate deceit and try to rewrite the thread to hide your lies. Anyone who has read the thread can see this. As for you, you are impossible to reason with. No more pearls for you.

Getting you to read honestly has become an insurmountable task for me to pursue. Good luck with your straw men...
 
Solo said:
Jesus tells us that those that are born of the flesh cannot see the Kingdom of God unless they are also born of the Spirit.

We won’t actually lay our eyes on heaven until we are born of the Spirit, and get to our new home in heaven but we can understand the message of the kingdom and live under the rule of the King, right here, right now. This kingdom is within you, whenever you submit to the leadership of Christ through the Spirit. Anyone can do it. It’s giving in to God’s will to do good instead of evil, love instead of hate, forgiveness instead of revenge, humility instead of pride, and taking responsibility for our actions instead of blaming others or God.



Solo said:
Those that have the Spirit indwelling them from the point of being born again are children of God, while those that do not have the Spirit of God indwelling them are not children of God, but are condemned. Jesus explains the condemnation that all are under until they are born again in John 3. Paul also records that there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus.

Sure, Solo. Those who love one another, turn the other cheek, forgiving instead of getting revenge and being kind to both the good and the evil are the children of God. Only those who are lead by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. He that doesn’t love his brother abides in death and the Spirit isn’t indwelling him. There is no condemnation only to those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. You guys all slide by that part for some reason. I suggest that you read Romans 8 again, paying particular attention to all the ‘if’s and try to imagine what would be the other option, ‘if’…



Solo said:
How is one born again? Jesus says it best in John 3.

You quote John 3:17-21 but it doesn’t even mention being born again. John 3:5-8 has more to do with being born again where Jesus tells him that it is a mystery like the wind.



Solo said:
Does the Holy Spirit ever leave us? No. Believers are born again and are now born of the flesh and born of the Spirit. Once believers are born of the Spirit, born again, the Holy Spirit resides within them sealing them until the day of redemption. Paul explains to the Ephesians that believers have been purchased through the blood of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit of promise was given, keeping the believer as an earnest payment until the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit is the earnest payment, not the believer. The seal is to reveal whether the covenant promise has been broken by either God or the believer. God is going to keep his part of the deal, no problem. He has done all that needed to be done to make him our savior. The question is, are we going to live up to our promise to make him our Lord and master?



Solo said:
One will notice that a believer may build upon the foundation of Jesus Christ that which is done in the Spirit or that which is done in the flesh. Those things that are done in the Spirit will remain, and the believer will be rewarded; but those things that are done in the flesh will be burned up and the believer will suffer loss. But he himself shall be saved!

How about some examples of what you mean by building on the foundation of Jesus Christ, things done in the flesh, things done in the spirit and what loss a believer will suffer. This is all just too nebulous. Do you have any real life illustrations?
:-?
 
Solo said:
Ask me whatever questions you have for me in question format without the excess "wind" and I will answer them for you. Thanks.

Explain what ‘wind’ you would like removed from my last post here and I will remove it. :)
 
unred typo said:
Solo said:
Ask me whatever questions you have for me in question format without the excess "wind" and I will answer them for you. Thanks.
Explain what ‘wind’ you would like removed from my last post here and I will remove it.
You asked me to answer your questions in four different posts, and instead of going back fighting through all of the excess mumbo jumbo that you post, I asked you to just post your questions in order, and I will answer them. If you do not, then my assumption that you are trolling and mocking is correct.
 
Solo said:
You asked me to answer your questions in four different posts, and instead of going back fighting through all of the excess mumbo jumbo that you post, I asked you to just post your questions in order, and I will answer them. If you do not, then my assumption that you are trolling and mocking is correct.

There are not so much questions to be answered but assertions to accept or deny. My posts are a correction of your errors in the understanding of scripture. If you have no further argument, you must agree but are unable or unwilling to verbalize your concession or the truth has found no place in your heart, and we will merely revisit the same lesson again. It would be better for you to not comprehend the truth than to understand it and then ignore it’s adjustment to your theology. Since you call it mumbo jumbo, I will assume the former to be the case, and repeat these truths until you are able to accept and internalize them. No offence taken.
 
unred typo said:
There are not so much questions to be answered but assertions to accept or deny. My posts are a correction of your errors in the understanding of scripture. If you have no further argument, you must agree but are unable or unwilling to verbalize your concession or the truth has found no place in your heart, and we will merely revisit the same lesson again. It would be better for you to not comprehend the truth than to understand it and then ignore it’s adjustment to your theology. Since you call it mumbo jumbo, I will assume the former to be the case, and repeat these truths until you are able to accept and internalize them. No offence taken.
You must come to the understanding that your wisdom pales in comparison to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and until you humble yourself to the Lordship of Jesus Christ you will continue to accept false teachings, and purport the false teachings to others. Let me give you a hint of truth; the Holy Spirit does not accept false teachings, and until you understand that you have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, you will continue on the path that leads to destruction. I will keep you in my prayers, you dear soul.
 
Solo said:
You must come to the understanding that your wisdom pales in comparison to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and until you humble yourself to the Lordship of Jesus Christ you will continue to accept false teachings, and purport the false teachings to others. Let me give you a hint of truth; the Holy Spirit does not accept false teachings, and until you understand that you have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, you will continue on the path that leads to destruction. I will keep you in my prayers, you dear soul.

If you feel my teaching is false, please feel free to refute it here if you are able. Is there something that Jesus Christ has said that you disagree with in my unanswered post to you above? Do you find it awkward arguing with your Lord and master? There were a couple questions in the end of my post that you should really try to work through. They might help you bring your barren concept of Christianity into the tangible world we live in. It is not the constant repeating of the phrase, ‘Lord, Lord’ that makes Jesus your Lord, but living according to his commands.
 
God Almighty gives us a great oulined understanding of faith in Hebrews 11.

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

John Darby has a very good commentary here: John Darby's Synopsis of the New Testament - Hebrews Chapter 11
 
Hello Folks...While I am not totally done cleaning it up as I am trying to keep folks comments in context to one another is close enough to be unlocked.....Here again is the OP for those who wish to start a new....

If I could give Dave a shameless plug, this is a well written and very accurate description of what Justification really means and what it is....

Enjoy.....




Dave... said:
Many people today stop short in their understanding of justification because the larger context does not allow for their "church" doctrines.

Justification cannot be a process because that which justifies us, the righteousness of God is not given in doses. Some make justification process to accommodate works because they don't understand the relationship between works and faith. Works cannot save save you, in part or as a whole, but can only be a result of one who is already saved.

It basically comes down to the order of events. Assuming the 'Who' and 'what' we are putting our faith into is accurate to the truth of God's Word, this is where they stumble, they believe...

Faith = good works = imputed righteousness = justification. Thereby making justification a process depending on your works.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

You can't have both grace and works before justification. You cannot both glory in the blood of Christ and the cross while at the same time disparaging it.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.â€Â

For those of you who think that you are justified by your works, even in combination with faith, Jesus has a test for you, which is basically to bring home the same point that the law require perfect obedience, and you will fail.

Jesus said...

Matthew 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Do you know how hard that it would be to do that? They had up to twenty or more separate books of law that they added to the scripture, and obeyed it all of it, to the letter. Even those scribes and Pharisees will suffer for eternity.

The Bible teaches...

Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = evidenced by good fruit/works This puts works in its proper place, as an evidence.

Faith is evidenced by works, as James tells us, but this is after the fact of justification. Jesus said, "You can tell a tree by it's fruit". The only question left to ask after one initially believes is whether or not ones faith is real. Are we are deceiving ourselves with a faith in idols, another Gospel, another Jesus? That's why Paul tell us to test ourselves daily. ***While works will evidence faith, works are separate and distinct from faith.***

When Jesus tells us that people who don't obey His commandments are not saved, He's not saying that the commandments are necessary to save you, He's saying that if you are giving evidence of a bad tree, you are a bad tree, you are not saved.

Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = evidenced by good fruit/works

***What is faith, Paul?***
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Where are works in that defining of faith? We can see from the rest of the chapter, the works come as a result of faith, a faith that has already justified us.

Understanding this, we can place the statement by James within it's proper context, a faith without works IS dead, and proves what Jesus said that the a bad tree does not bare good fruit, and a good tree does bare good fruit. Also proving what Jesus said, that those who are His will obey His commandments. You will also see that all the scripture posted below about justification that you might usually ignore all fits together perfectly with James staements when we understand this within it's proper context. What we are are not doing is putting the cart before the horse, namely, works before justification simply because works are an evidence of faith, thus forcing justification to be a process depending on our works.

Justification is a one time act that comes the moment we believe.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Your works will be an indicator of where your faith is at. But make no mistake about it, it's faith ( Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ) that saves. Because it is only by faith ( Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ) that we are imputed with the righteousness of God. How do we know if our faith is real and we are justified by the blood of Christ on the cross? You can tell a tree by it's fruit. Works come after justification.

Faith = good works = imputed righteousness = justification.

This puts you under the law.

Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = evidenced by good fruit/works This puts works in its proper place, as an evidence.

This puts you under Grace.

------------------------------------

Justification before God

Promised in Christ.


Isaiah 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Is the act of God.

Isaiah 50:8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

UNDER THE LAW

Requires perfect obedience.


Leviticus 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Man cannot attain to.

Job 9:2-3 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.

Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Psalms 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

Psalms 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 9:31-32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

UNDER THE GOSPEL

Is not of works.


Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Is not of faith and works united.

Acts 15:1-29 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. ...

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Galatians 2:14-21 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. ...

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Is by faith alone.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Is of grace.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 5:17-21 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ...

In the name of Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

By imputation of Christ's righteousness.

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

By the blood of Christ.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

By the resurrection of Christ.

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Blessedness of.

Psalms 32:1-2 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Frees from condemnation.

Isaiah 50:8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me.

Isaiah 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Romans 8:33-34 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Entitles to an inheritance.

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ensures glorification.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The wicked shall not attain to.

Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

BY FAITH

Revealed under the old dispensation.


Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Excludes boasting.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Does not make void the law.

Romans 3:30-31 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Typified.

Zechariah 3:4-5 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

Illustrated.

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Exemplified.

Abraham,
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Paul,
Philippians 3:8-9 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 
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