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Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some.

Huh?? Are you telling the Holy Spirit that 'Inspired' the verse, that anyone, (ANYONE) was ever saved any other way than FAITH?? Hebrews 11:13

But, there were other ones that are DEAD at the time of this verse to, that died 'OUT' of the Faith. :robot: Ephesians 4:5 These ones are all PARTAKERS of the Revelation 18:4 Open santanic stuff! (unless they leave the 'yoked membership' Bondage behind :fadein: )

---John
 
Dave,

First, I must apologize that I will not be able to respond to each and every Scripture verse that you copied and pasted from whatever article you got that reply from... But I will do what I can to explain my point of view by myself...

Dave... said:
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

God's Righteousness, which is what saves us, is imputed the moment we believe. We know this happened if the righteousness of God begins to manifest itself in our lives in good works/fruit. This leaves the works/fruit as an evidence of a true faith that has already resulted in the imputed righteousness of God, not the cause of it.

I never said that works are the cause of our salvation independent of our faith. I say that we need both. If one does NOT manifest good works/fruits, one will not be saved - because they are lacking "true faith". Thus, without works, one does not have faith that will save.

I agree, Paul and James are arguing the different sides of the same coin.

Basically, Paul says works without faith is dead.
James says faith without works is dead.

Thus, one must have BOTH faith and works of love to be salvific.

"What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?" James 2:14

This rhetorical question is obviously answered by a "NO". Immediately preceding, James gives an example of a faith without love when he chides those who give the rich places of honor at their meetings. The question is applicable to us today. What would you do? TODAY?

This is one example of many that shows that faith is a journey, not one-time declaration or an acknowledgement of Christ's identity. Even the devil knew who Christ was - Mark's Gospel is full of the demon's recognition of Jesus (they were the only ones who knew Jesus true identity until the Centurion at the very end). Thus, knowledge in of itself is worthless, as we agree that the devil is not saved by this knowledge.

We must make a conscious effort and choice - daily - to continue to follow Christ, to persevere. Faith, to Catholics, is a WAY OF LIFE rather than a major decision made one time. Thus, we emphasize the daily challenges of living out our faith - as when the question of James 2 pops up... "What will I do?" Thus, we believe that our walk in Christ is a journey that necessitates faith, hope, love, repentance, and obedience to God. Without this committment to Christ, what good is a declaration of our "faith"?

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 7:21


Dave... said:
francisdesales, since you quoted Galatians, i'll ask you what Paul asked the Galatians.

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

This is the Protestant error... The "either/or" box that they place all theology within... Paul tells us in Galatians that:

"For I, through the law, am dead to the law, that I may live to God: with Christ I am nailed to the cross. And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me" Gal 2:19-20

"I can do all these things in him who strengtheneth me" Phil 4:13

When Christ abides in me, I can do anything. It is not ME ALONE doing it, nor is it CHRIST ALONE doing it. When I do a deed of love, it is me that lives and Christ in me that does the work. Thus, since I am part of the Body of Christ, my good deed is attributed to me - and can only be accomplished because I am in Christ. Thus, I am actually made righteous because of Christ within me. I am not merely righteous by legal declaration. I am made so by God who can do all things.

Secondly, "works of the law" is NOT the same thing as "works of love". This is the other common error I see made on this subject. Works of the law are ANYTHING that I do to earn something. This is best described in Romans 4:4 "to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt"

Thus, one working under the law is trying to earn salvation... "See, God, I obey the commandments. You owe me salvation"...

However, salvation then cannot be a gift if it is earned. The motivation for love is entirely different than the motivation to earn something. This is the difference. God EXPECTS - no - COMMANDS us to love! This is not to earn heaven. As part of our covenant relationship, we are commanded to obey our God - and He provides the means for us to do just that by giving us faith and the desire to love others. Thus, Paul chastizing those trying to earn salvation - and later in Galatians - Paul DEMANDING that they persevere in good works of the Spirit!

Everything that we do, whether it is having faith in God or loving our neighbor is truly a gift from Him. There is nothing we have that is not from Him. We merely are returning the gift. And that is what He desires of us... God desires we turn from sin and walk (LOVE!) in faith. If we are not, how can we say we have faith in God?

Regards
 
John the Baptist said:
Huh?? Are you telling the Holy Spirit that 'Inspired' the verse, that anyone, (ANYONE) was ever saved any other way than FAITH?? Hebrews 11:13

---John

John,

I presume you are talking to me. I apologize in advance, but it is difficult reading your posts and trying to figure out what you are saying. Please speak more plainly, rather than in cryptic posts of unrelated Scriptural verses....

To answer your question about being saved by something other than "faith", Hebrews 11:13 doesn't say anything about being saved by faith alone...

"All these died according to faith, not having received the promises, but beholding them afar off, and saluting them, and confessing that they are pilgrims and strangers on the earth"

Secondly, here is another way man is saved...

"For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for?" Romans 8:24

This is from ROMANS! Either Paul is schizophrenic, saying we are saved by "faith alone" and 5 chapters later, denying that, or your interpretation of what faith is to St. Paul is wrong. I believe your interpretations are wrong.

Finally, why does Sacred Scripture DENY that idea that faith alone saves?

"For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead" James 2:26

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
John,

I presume you are talking to me. I apologize in advance, but it is difficult reading your posts and trying to figure out what you are saying. Please speak more plainly, rather than in cryptic posts of unrelated Scriptural verses....

***
John here:
No, I was not talking to you, or your post. (and there is no need to reply, thanks in advance!)

I think that perhaps Dave understood that it was for his posting?
 
Basically, Paul says works without faith is dead.

I disagree with you here. Paul was saying that faith alone because it is by faith alone that we are imputed with the righteousness of God. He also makes the point that works in any way by itself or in combination with faith puts us under the law. I believe that the scripture that I posted backs that fact up.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

francisdesales, whether you realise it or not, I believe that you are playing both sides of the fence. To clear matters up for me and any readers, can you explain to me when and how you are justified before God?

At what moment are you justified before God? And how does this happen?
 
Dave asks: "To clear matters up for me and any readers, can you explain to me when and how you are justified before God?"
___

And to be Justified before God?? Surely NO one can be such if not Born Again! And the Holy Spirit is given ONLY to the ones who 'OBEY HIM' Acts 5:32

I suspect that 'most' believe that the complete Word of God was INSPIRED by Him??? 2 Peter 1:21. And is to be our diet. Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16

Romans 8:1 tells the only way one can be 'Justified' is required for them to be "In Christ". Compare Acts 5:32. ALL of the ones of Hebrews 11:13 O.T. & N.T. ones died IN CHRIST. (By Faith) Yet, AGAIN.. we are not dead yet! In other words, we can do as did Cain in Gen. 4:7.

You do remember that the forbidden tree was placed in the very 'midst of the garden of Eden' before Adam & Eve fell from Grace? Your works tell if you remain IN CHRIST or not. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

---John
 
Dave... said:
Paul was saying that faith alone because it is by faith alone that we are imputed with the righteousness of God. He also makes the point that works in any way by itself or in combination with faith puts us under the law. I believe that the scripture that I posted backs that fact up.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Dave,

Paul doesn't say we are saved by faith alone. Never are these words put together in Scripture, "Faith" and "alone", unless they are being denied. Secondly, while God does "impute" righteousness to us, that is not ALL He does. He also MAKES us righteous. He makes us Holy, as 1 Peter 1:16 tells us. Thus, you aren't going far enough. Along with Romans 4:5, you should consider reading Romans 4:4, which explains the difference between "work" and "grace". Understanding this verse helps to understand what Paul is trying to say. We cannot earn salvation. It is a gift given to us.


Dave... said:
francisdesales, whether you realise it or not, I believe that you are playing both sides of the fence. To clear matters up for me and any readers, can you explain to me when and how you are justified before God?

How am I "playing both sides of the fence"? By realizing that man needs both faith and works of love to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? That is the message of Scriptures. I don't get the idea from reading the Bible that we are to "merely" believe in Christ, making a one-time declaration for Him, and all is OK. That is NOT the Gospel at all.

How am I justified before God? As I said before, justification is a process. Although we probably agree on initial justification, that first time by faith (without any works), we come to believe in God and are subsequently justified during Baptism - justification is an ongoing process. To us, sanctification and justification are synonymous. Knowing this, perhaps you can see why we believe that both faith and works of love are necessary to be justified AFTER our initial coming to the Lord... Not only are we "imputed" justification, but we also are internally made holy, further justified, sanctified, in God's eyes, as our faith works in love. As we all well know, we can reverse this process and become "unjust" in God's eyes. Galatians 5 and 1 Cor 6 gives some examples of Christians becoming unjustified in God's eyes by their deliberate disobedience of the Law of Love...

Regards
 
And to be Justified before God?? Surely NO one can be such if not Born Again! And the Holy Spirit is given ONLY to the ones who 'OBEY HIM' Acts 5:32

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vainâ€â€if indeed it was in vain?5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.†7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.†9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Have a nice day John.

Paul doesn't say we are saved by faith alone. Never are these words put together in Scripture, "Faith" and "alone", unless they are being denied.

What does "not of yourselves" and "not of works" mean (Ephesians 2:8-10)? You see, francisdesales, you are adding to the word by adding to "faith" the meaning of "works and faith" under the title of "faith".

What is faith, francisdesales?

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Secondly, while God does "impute" righteousness to us, that is not ALL He does.

At this point, when we are imputed with Christs righteousness, we are saved, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, baptised/imersed into Christs death and raised up with Him. When we are in Christ we are complete in Him and lacking nothing. He has put Himself in us, there is nothing more to give. The rest, the filling comes through obedience, but this does not save an already saved person. God's righteousness is not given in doses, and it is God's righteousness that justifies us before God Himself. Nothing else can do this because not of us are sinless and meet God's perfect standard.

He also MAKES us righteous. He makes us Holy, as 1 Peter 1:16 tells us. Thus, you aren't going far enough. Along with Romans 4:5, you should consider reading Romans 4:4, which explains the difference between "work" and "grace". Understanding this verse helps to understand what Paul is trying to say. We cannot earn salvation. It is a gift given to us.

1 Peter doesn't say what you are implying it does, and yes, Romans 4:4 is important. To be "in dept" as vs. four tells us means to be under the law, not grace. Look at the context...

Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.†4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.â€Â
Abraham Justified Before Circumcision


9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The Promise Granted Through Faith

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nationsâ€Â) in the presence of Him whom he believedâ€â€God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.†19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.â€Â

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Out of time.
 
Dave... said:
What does "not of yourselves" and "not of works" mean (Ephesians 2:8-10)? You see, francisdesales, you are adding to the word by adding to "faith" the meaning of "works and faith" under the title of "faith".


It means we ALONE can do nothing. But in Christ, I can do ALL, as Paul tells the Galatians. Thus, my "works of love" have value because I do them in Christ - not of my own volition. Scriptures clearly tell us that our actions must cooperate with the Spirit's moving of our wills. In John 6, Jesus calls "faith" a work of God. I am not adding anything to the meaning. In Romans, Paul twice mentions the obedience of faith. Thus, faith is not merely an intellectual assent, but involves a necessary action along with it. This action is done in Christ, or it has no supernatural value.

Dave... said:
What is faith, francisdesales?

Well, it can mean a number of things. At times, it is narrow in definition, as James uses it to mean an intellectual assent of something's existence, while "Paul" defines it differently in Hebrews:

"Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not." Heb 11:1

Thus, we trust in God's promises based on His righteousness.

Usually, faith means trusting in God's promises.

Dave... said:
At this point, when we are imputed with Christs righteousness, we are saved, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, baptised/imersed into Christs death and raised up with Him.

Well, this leads to "what does 'saved' mean"? Perhaps we are talking past each other, as I doubt our definitions of "being saved" mean the same thing. Normally, when Catholics talk about being saved, they are refering to eternal salvation, not a temporal salvation from sin (which it certainly does mean that. We just call that "justification", however)

Dave... said:
1 Peter doesn't say what you are implying it does

Sure it does. It simply says that we must become holy! This is quite in line with what Christ says on His famous Sermon on the Mount:

"For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 5:20

Jesus then proceeds for two more chapters on HOW we become more holy: through alms, prayer, fasting, and treating each other with love, even our enemies. Of course, this is all from God, it is not our OWN righteousness. However, since we are in Christ, it does become our righteousness - not only credited to us, but actually a transformation of our fleshy natures. We DO become holy because of God's power working within us. If original sin effects our nature to the core, then so does the cure - Christ's righteousness. Original sin was not a legal (only) curse against us, nor is justification a legal (only) cure for mankind...

Romans 4 doesn't give the whole story... Proceed to Romans 5 to learn how original sin effects our deepest selves - and that the cure ALSO effects our deepest selves.

All the rest (regarding circumcision, etc) is merely Paul arguing against those Jews who think that a Gentile must become a Jew first to become justified. It has nothing to do with "works of love", but rather, works of the law, which are distinctive Jewish practices. Paul attacks circumcision by noting that Abraham was considered righteous WITHOUT taking on Jewish practices. As such, Gentiles don't need to, either.

Regards
 
I didn't have time to get to this yesterday.

Although we probably agree on initial justification, that first time by faith (without any works), we come to believe in God and are subsequently justified during Baptism

There is only a one time justification before God. There cannot be an innicial and progressive justification.

You can't have both grace and works for justification. You cannot both glory in the blood of Christ and the cross while at the same time disparaging it. Are you "glorying in the cross" (Galatians 6:14), or are you diparaging the cross, thus making you an enemy of the cross (Philippians 3:18)?

"Remember, an enemy of the cross is one who implies that the work of Jesus Christ on the cross was insufficient for our salvation, period. Their destiny? Destruction! (Philippians 3:19). Disparage means to belittle, diminish, lessen, reduce, devalue, discount, impair, lower, degrade, minimize, curtail, or decrease." If you both glory in the cross and disparage the cross, you are double minded, as the Bible tells us the unsaved will be. While it is true that many speak highly of the blood of Christ on the cross, they also disparage it with a works based salvation. It is the righteousness of God that saves.

Baptism: I agree if you are not speaking of the type but the real. Meaning I agree if you are speaking of the true Spirit baptism, not water baptism, which is a type of the real.

- justification is an ongoing process. To us, sanctification and justification are synonymous.

I disagree on both counts.

1) You are using the result of justification as the cause. I believe that I have given enough scripture to debunk that idea.

2) Sanctification is both positional and progressive. The positional sanctification is about what Jesus did on the cross and has nothing to do with what we did. This positional sanctification is that which justifies.

Progressive sanctification is the result of us being in Christ which includes works, obedience, etc.. This does not justify us because we don't enter progressive sanctification until we are already justified before God being "in Christ". Progressive sanctification is the result of us being "in Christ", saved.

Positional sanctification. 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 Corinthians 6:11.

Progressive sanctification 1 Thessalonians 4:3
 
Dave... said:
francisdesales, i'm falling behind. I'll need to answer your last post tomorrow. Sorry.

Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the reply. At least you aren't condeming me to hellfire or claiming I am from the devil, which seems to be the common fate of Catholics on this forum...

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Dave,

Thanks for the reply. At least you aren't condeming me to hellfire or claiming I am from the devil, which seems to be the common fate of Catholics on this forum...

Regards
If you are truly born again, why do you follow the lies of the Roman Catholic Church over the commandments of Jesus Christ? Let it be a warning to you for your own well-being; if you are not born again as the Bible teaches you will spend eternity in hell fire; if you are born again, you will be guided out of the lies of the Roman Catholic Church.
 
Dave... said:
There is only a one time justification before God. There cannot be an innicial and progressive justification.

Dave,

I disagree. And I think here is the main difference on this issue between Catholics and Protestants. Catholics see our relationship with God as familial, while Protestantism sees it first as a legal issue. Thus, the idea of crediting righteousness to your account and being imputed with justice that is not yours. This legalisation of how salvation works is an innovation of the Protestant Reformation - primarily coming from Luther's idea on man's utter depravity.

Catholic teaching has never seen man as utterly depraved, but wounded. Man does maintain a wounded free will - unlike what Luther said. Thus, there is nor never was a need to consider salvation as a legal transaction. Rather, as the OT also formulates, man and God have a covenantal relationship, one of familial love. As a result, we see justification and sanctification as synonymous. In Protestantism, justification is a one-time process, while sanctification, quite honestly, serves very little purpose (since supposedly, Christ has already done everything necessary for a man to enter heaven - being further sanctified serves no purpose in salvation in this scheme).

Although justification begins at a specific point - Baptism - grace continues to flow in our lives. We gain grace as we live a life of obedience. As grace increases, so does justification - and we become more sanctified (holy) in God's eyes. God removes grace from us when we turn away from Him after committing serious, unrepented sin. There is little appreciable difference between justification and sanctification. In fact, the grace received during Baptism, during initial justification, is called "sanctifying grace". An example of this application is found in 1 Cor 6:9-11:

"Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God. And such some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God."

Paul is speaking of Baptism (the washing of regeneration) as being instrument by which God sanctifies and justifies us. The only other place New Testament uses "washing" is in Acts 22:16, which is the act of Baptism...

"And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name. "

The context of 1 Cor 6 deals with the conduct of the Corinthians, not the alien righteousness of Christians. Thus, when Paul switches around these terms interchangeably, we see there is no chronological order - justification and sanctification are two synonymous terms. In fact, the verb "justified" NEVER precedes the verb "sanctified" in the New Testament!

Is justification a one-time act? Scriptures disagree:

"He that hurteth, let him hurt still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is just, let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still." Rev 22:11

"Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24

Also, at times, the Bible uses the word "sanctify" or "sanctification" when you would expect to see "justify:

"...to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me." Acts 26:18 (KJV)

The word "sanctified" is used, rather than "justified". Men are forgiven by sanctification, rather than by justification.

Or

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers dispersed through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect, According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, unto the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you and peace be multiplied." 1 Peter 1:1-2

Again, we have been chosen as the elect through the sanctification (rather than justification) of the Spirit...

Or

"But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth" 2 Thess 2:13

Again, sanctification and faith are connected directly in being chosen for salvation - rather than justification.

Hebrews 10:29; Jude 1; and Eph 5:26 are further examples of this utilization of the word "sanctification" where "justification" would have been expected. Thus, we see the words as NOT separate. As a result, since sanctification means justification and vice versus, and sanctification continues throughout one's life, we can also say that justification continues to ebb and increase throughout one's life. God sees our holiness in Christ change as our obedience, humility, and love change as a result of the Spirit's work in our hearts.

Further study of WHEN Abraham and David were justified will yield the same results... Man's justification in God's eyes is not a one-time event, but ongoing.

Regards
 
Dave... said:
There is only a one time justification before God. There cannot be an innicial and progressive justification.

Dave,

I disagree. And I think here is the main difference on this issue between Catholics and Protestants. Catholics see our relationship with God as familial, while Protestantism sees it first as a legal issue. Thus, the idea of crediting righteousness to your account and being imputed with justice that is not yours. This legalisation of how salvation works is an innovation of the Protestant Reformation - primarily coming from Luther's idea on man's utter depravity.

Catholic teaching has never seen man as utterly depraved, but wounded. Man does maintain a wounded free will - unlike what Luther said. Thus, there is nor never was a need to consider salvation as a legal transaction. Rather, as the OT also formulates, man and God have a covenantal relationship, one of familial love. As a result, we see justification and sanctification as synonymous. In Protestantism, justification is a one-time process, while sanctification, quite honestly, serves very little purpose (since supposedly, Christ has already done everything necessary for a man to enter heaven - being further sanctified serves no purpose in salvation in this scheme).

Although justification begins at a specific point - Baptism - grace continues to flow in our lives. We gain grace as we live a life of obedience. As grace increases, so does justification - and we become more sanctified (holy) in God's eyes. God removes grace from us when we turn away from Him after committing serious, unrepented sin. There is little appreciable difference between justification and sanctification. In fact, the grace received during Baptism, during initial justification, is called "sanctifying grace". An example of this application is found in 1 Cor 6:9-11:

"Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God. And such some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God."

Paul is speaking of Baptism (the washing of regeneration) as being instrument by which God sanctifies and justifies us. The only other place New Testament uses "washing" is in Acts 22:16, which is the act of Baptism...

"And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name. "

The context of 1 Cor 6 deals with the conduct of the Corinthians, not the alien righteousness of Christians. Thus, when Paul switches around these terms interchangeably, we see there is no chronological order - justification and sanctification are two synonymous terms. In fact, the verb "justified" NEVER precedes the verb "sanctified" in the New Testament!

Is justification a one-time act? Scriptures disagree:

"He that hurteth, let him hurt still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is just, let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still." Rev 22:11

"Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24

Also, at times, the Bible uses the word "sanctify" or "sanctification" when you would expect to see "justify:

"...to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me." Acts 26:18 (KJV)

The word "sanctified" is used, rather than "justified". Men are forgiven by sanctification, rather than by justification.

Or

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers dispersed through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect, According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, unto the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you and peace be multiplied." 1 Peter 1:1-2

Again, we have been chosen as the elect through the sanctification (rather than justification) of the Spirit...

Or

"But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth" 2 Thess 2:13

Again, sanctification and faith are connected directly in being chosen for salvation - rather than justification.

Hebrews 10:29; Jude 1; and Eph 5:26 are further examples of this utilization of the word "sanctification" where "justification" would have been expected. Thus, we see the words as NOT separate. As a result, since sanctification means justification and vice versus, and sanctification continues throughout one's life, we can also say that justification continues to ebb and increase throughout one's life. God sees our holiness in Christ change as our obedience, humility, and love change as a result of the Spirit's work in our hearts.

Further study of WHEN Abraham and David were justified will yield the same results... Man's justification in God's eyes is not a one-time event, but ongoing.

Regards
 
It means we ALONE can do nothing. But in Christ, I can do ALL, as Paul tells the Galatians. Thus, my "works of love" have value because I do them in Christ - not of my own volition. Scriptures clearly tell us that our actions must cooperate with the Spirit's moving of our wills. In John 6, Jesus calls "faith" a work of God. I am not adding anything to the meaning. In Romans, Paul twice mentions the obedience of faith. Thus, faith is not merely an intellectual assent, but involves a necessary action along with it. This action is done in Christ, or it has no supernatural value.

But all this is after the fact of justification. If you look at Ephesians 2:8-10 again it is made very clear that the salvation is not of works or of ourselves, but the result of it is to do the works that God has prepared for us to do. What you are describing is being filled (under control of" the Holy Spirit. This comes through obedience.

I'll see if I can find a quote that describes it better that I've used in the past.

Well, it can mean a number of things. At times, it is narrow in definition, as James uses it to mean an intellectual assent of something's existence, while "Paul" defines it differently in Hebrews:

"Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not." Heb 11:1

Thus, we trust in God's promises based on His righteousness.

Usually, faith means trusting in God's promises.

Actually, James, speaking of justification before men, uses the example that even Demons have a intellectual understanding and tremble. But this is speaking of the evidence/fruit of a faith that has already ushered in the imputed righteousness of God, if in fact it has.

"Thus, we trust in God's promises based on His righteousness." exactly! But if we feel the need to do the works to earn something, then we are not trusting in Him. Mercy, not sacrifice. The works will be a natural evidence of our new nature.

Well, this leads to "what does 'saved' mean"? Perhaps we are talking past each other, as I doubt our definitions of "being saved" mean the same thing. Normally, when Catholics talk about being saved, they are refering to eternal salvation, not a temporal salvation from sin (which it certainly does mean that. We just call that "justification", however)

Being baptised spiritually into the Body of Christ. It'a a spiritual immerssion by Jesus with the Holy Spirit into His death (We die with Him) and ressuruection (we are raised up with Him) i.e. Born again (Romans 6:1-5, Colossians 2:8-10). Making us one with Him.

Sure it does. It simply says that we must become holy! This is quite in line with what Christ says on His famous Sermon on the Mount:

"For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 5:20

Jesus then proceeds for two more chapters on HOW we become more holy: through alms, prayer, fasting, and treating each other with love, even our enemies. Of course, this is all from God, it is not our OWN righteousness. However, since we are in Christ, it does become our righteousness - not only credited to us, but actually a transformation of our fleshy natures. We DO become holy because of God's power working within us. If original sin effects our nature to the core, then so does the cure - Christ's righteousness. Original sin was not a legal (only) curse against us, nor is justification a legal (only) cure for mankind...

I need to ask you to go back to the original opening post to see how this was dealt with.

Gotta go

Dave
 
Dave…( in answer to the statement that John made that “the Holy Spirit is given ONLY to the ones who 'OBEY HIMâ€Â)
quoted this:
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vainâ€â€if indeed it was in vain?5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.†7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.†9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.


You have to put Paul’s letter in context here, Dave... He was dealing with people who were thinking that in order to be righteous before God they had to be circumcised and follow the other rituals for diet, dress and holy days given to the Jews. These were works of the law, that were done in the flesh, especially speaking of circumcision. He does not mean that we are not to follow Christ in our human bodies doing those things that Jesus has commanded us to do. Faith is believing God and doing what he says to do. If he says ‘if you do this you will live’, you believe him and do it.

An analogy: (We hate these. They never work but we keep trying.)
You say to your son, “clean your room and I’ll take you to the ball game.†You come back in an hour and the room hasn’t been touched so you say, “didn’t you believe me?’ Your son says, “yes, I believe you but since I am your son, I know you will take me anyways. I humbly ask that you forgive my sin and take me to the ball game out of your great mercy. I believe with all my heart that you will take me whether I clean my room or not.†Heh heh.

Is God a just God? Can you believe him or not? Is believing something he didn’t say, actually believing him or would it be believing a lie?

Now we know as an analogy, this one stinks because God isn’t asking us to clean our rooms and the reward is much greater than a ball game. But look at what you believe. Adam, the son of God, eats a fruit that God forbid, so God lets him die, whether Adam repents or not. All of Adam’s descendants (grandchildren of God) are not allowed to go to heaven because of their father’s sin and their own sinful nature. Then Jesus comes along and says, repent and believe the gospel. He offers pardon and if you will trust and obey him, you can go to heaven. If you really believe him, you would repent and forsake your sin and obey him and do the works of love and faith he has commanded. Instead you say, “I repent of my sin and I believe with all my heart that you are going to take me to heaven out of your great mercy since I am your son, whether I obey you or not."
Yet the Bible says you belong to whom you obey. If you follow and obey Satan, he owns you. The prodigal son had to leave the pigs in order to live with the Father.
 
Dave... said:
If you look at Ephesians 2:8-10 again it is made very clear that the salvation is not of works or of ourselves, but the result of it is to do the works that God has prepared for us to do.

Dave,

Brother, EVERYTHING we do is from God. Whether it is our faith or our love for others, or our repentance, everything we have is a gift from God. We merely are returning the gift to the Father. However, we are not totally passive, for we are told to:

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Phil 2:12-13

Notice BOTH participants are involved in the "work" of salvation (I would like to point out that "salvation" in that sentence is the Catholic definition - where salvation is a journey, synonymous with justification and sanctification. My previous post notes the biblical proofs). In this case, Paul is talking about salvation as a PRESENT tense event, something that we do TODAY.

Dave... said:
Actually, James, speaking of justification before men, uses the example that even Demons have a intellectual understanding and tremble. But this is speaking of the evidence/fruit of a faith that has already ushered in the imputed righteousness of God, if in fact it has.

Note that James uses Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac as his example of faith. Now, WHO witnessed this faith of Abraham? He specifically sent away the servants - Scriptures note this seemingly insignificant item for a reason. It is because the event is witnessed by GOD ALONE! (and the angels...) There is no men that Abraham is justifying himself in front of - as if that was important to James, anyway. Note in James 2, at the beginning, he chastizes those who welcome the rich over the poor at their meetings. Does this sound like James cares about being justified in front of men?

Dave... said:
{I asked: "when are we saved?"} {when we are...} baptised spiritually into the Body of Christ.

Yes, that is the initial point of salvation. But salvation is described as a journey in Scriptures. We are saved, being saved, and will be saved...All said to Christians. Thus, "Are you saved" is an incomplete question that refers only to whether a Christian HAD received Christ into their hearts at one point in their lives. It doesn't follow that they STILL have Christ in their hearts (we know one does IF they obey the Commandments) nor does it follow that they WILL have Christ in the future - as we do not know if we will fall away and refuse to obey God. By not obeying God, we do not have faith in Him, either.

Regards
 
Sorry guys, my sleeping hours are all messed up. As a result, i'm not getting much computer time. I'll try to get some time tomorrow to respond.
 
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