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beloved57
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Rom 5:19 says that by Christ death, which is His obedience, many shall be made righteous. The obedience of one did that.So his one obedience can't be for all without exception since many are unjust and unrighteous.
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Not_Now.Soon
Member
I hope in those words Kidron, and words like them. Like Isaiah 41:10,
10 Do not fear, for I am with you;do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
None the less, in Mathew 7:21-23 it says:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
And in Mathew 25:31-46:
It is good to be confident in our salvation, but don't let that confidance be a force on it's own. Who knows who God has chosen and who He hasn't except God Himself. He can look at a person's entire life and say he chose them before they knew Him. And he can cast off those we would think are His own because as as Mathew 7:23 says. Jesus will say to those that aren't his, "I never knew you."
These are sobering and humbling thoughts. And I think they are meant to be this way, so that we are humble.
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Not_Now.Soon
Member
We are all unjust and unrighteous. For it says all have fallen. Those who are counted as rightous are those who believe in God. Every example in scriptures naming a person for being rightous I think was named so by their faith in God. Arguable the verses that say Jesus died for all, or verses that say God wants all to be saved, or anything in relation to that must be considered as true by what they say. All means all. Any exceptions are not ours to understand or to point out. Even Paul was saved while he hunted down more Christians. All could very well be argued as all. To understand differently we need other scripture to say otherwise, not our own words and understanding to correct what was meant when "all" was written.
Kidron
Member
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God does not choose whom will be saved, and this is why salvation is open to "as MANY as would receive", "to all who would come".
Salvation is NEVER...."The only ones i chose".
God knows in advance WHO will be saved or not.
"Election" is understood as the "foreknowledge of God".
This is....that KNOWING a thing in advance, is not the same as CAUSING it, in time.
God already knew BEFORE the foundation of the universe, before the fall of Satan, before the earth was formed, all who would be found "In Christ".
God does not offer salvation, freely.... only to corrupt it by not letting some have it.
So, dont let backwards theology and subverted Ministers (and their like) lead you to believe a "predestined" LIE.
The "Gift of Salvation", is not God reserved for only a few that He chose to have it.
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beloved57
Guest
Some have been made righteous by Christ death of obedience Rom 5:19 and some have not. Some have been reconciled to God by Christ death while being enemies Rom 5:10 and some have not Jn3:18,36
I showed how the Bible just disproved that totally wrong conclusion about my views.
But, instead of an actual response, just a regurgitation of your claim. However, since there is no way to refute what the Bible teaches, I suppose regurgitation is all that can be done.
The Bible contrasts between works and faith, as previously shown. Believing isn't a "product".
Believing HAS TO result in a PRODUCT in order to be a work, and since no one has yet shown how believing the gospel results in a product, your point is obviously not taken.
The definition you've provided just sunk your ship.
He died for ALL, as Scripture SAYS 3 times. Your view is refuted. Case closed.
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beloved57
Guest
Believing is a work, an act that the person does with the mind/heart. Also you can not show me a verse that says believing is not a work.
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beloved57
Guest
He died for all whom He died for. Those Christ died for are sanctified by it and perfected forever Heb 10:10,14!
Really?
Here are the verses:
10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
The Bible 3 times SAYS that Christ died for all. So your theory is refuted by Scripture.
Unless and until anyone exegetes the 3 verses to prove that the word "all" cannot mean everyone in the human race, there is no reason to consider your theory.
Show me where believing the gospel produces a PRODUCT. Unless and until that is done, there is no reason to consider your theory.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
Kidron, I have one complaint. Stop saying I am pushing a theology.
Regardless if you disagree with it or not. For others this approach might be fine, but for me it stings as disrespect. I have given my understanding and followed up with bible verses that have helped me in my struggle to understand and sift past all the different theologies and perspectives. I try not to give a theology, but try to give my understanding. Don't say they are the same thing either, a person's theology and their personal understanding. Because on is personal it is their thoughts and conclusions. Possibly with little of a lot of thought in those conclusions. A theology on the other hand is impersonal, not attributed to a person. So if you want to either disagree or outright attack my perspectives then do so directly. It is more respectful (for me at least), then to name my hard earned conclusions as part of an umbrella theology that I did not write nor probabley know all the truths or pitfalls within it.
It says God draws those to Him that He chooses. It's not something we do, an action we take, and in my opinion and my hope God does this to everyone, not just you or me. But there are mixed mixed perspectives with bible verses that say we are chosen or that we choose God. Since they are both supported by scripture then they must both be right, or are both close in being correctly understood. This is not theology supporting one verse and ignoring another. Nor is it a false gospel. These are my understandings. My own. Treat them as such instead of talking to me as a group of theologies, or a group of people that hold those theologies. Even if you disagree and speak harshly or frankly, do me this one respect and not treat my words as some theology that I'm trying to push.
If you want to know, here is the theology I try to push, and it is not about salvation.
It is that God loves us, We should love God. It is both good that we do this and good for us to do this.
It is that to love God is to follow Him, and to have faith in God is also to follow Him. Our actions are an extension of our love and our faith towards God. They both represent positively and negatively towards that love and faith. And again this is not about salvation but about what we are suppose to do.
Third it is about what we are called to do. What we actually do when we follow God. It is to heal and to love, to correct one another for their benifit, encourage and uplift one another. Love your neighbor and your enemy, and share in both the joys and the sorrows of those you are near.
Those three ideas could be what I would call my theology that I ho,d to and strive to teach. Everything else I say, even including those three theological perspectives are my own thoughts. Treat them as such and be at least that respectful.
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beloved57
Guest
Yes Really!
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beloved57
Guest
Believing is a act, a act is a work.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
I agree with this. But it is not by rewording what is said or what is meant in verses that say something different. We must not do that.
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beloved57
Guest
Exactly what do you agree with ?
Kidron
Member
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NNS,
There isnt a sentence in my post to you, that you are referring to, that accuses you of pushing a theology.
All i did was explain NT "predestination", and after that, i said to you .."""So, dont let backwards theology and subverted Ministers (and their like) lead you to believe a "predestined" LIE.
The "Gift of Salvation", is not God reserved for only a few that He chose to have it.""
Let me explain what all this means.
In order for an act of believing to be a "work", the believing MUST result in a PRODUCT. That is according to the very definition that was in your own post. So you "own" that definition. And the onus is on you to prove how believing the gospel results in a PRODUCT.
So, I will explain how believing something results in a PRODUCT, and therefore IS a work.
Someone believes certain things about how the stock market acts and reacts to various world situations. That's the thinking part. And, even according to your own provided definition, is NOT a work yet.
Now, only WHEN that someone APPLIES what they believe to certain ACTIONS, like buying/selling certain stocks, does their believing result in a PRODUCT, which is profit.
So, UNLESS believing the gospel results in a PRODUCT, which it doesn't, your claim is untrue.
Now, your turn. Show us how believing the gospel produces a PRODUCT. That's how to prove your claim. Otherwise, it's just an opinion.
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beloved57
Guest
You must don't believe what a work is.
work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.
doing,
("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire(intension, purpose).
an act, deed, thing done
Believing is something done by the person. So by definition its a work ! You can't get around it.
Its the carrying out of a inner desire.
So you promote salvation by works.