Justified by His Blood alone !

[FreeGrace]

Exactly the point I observed. The gift is for all intents and purposes available to ALL mankind, but essentially worthless and ineffective without faith, in such views. I have a theological problem trying to remedy that claim to Romans 11:25-32 for example, previously given in prior post. In that I might say it's effective for whoever God says it's effective for.

That view appears to minimize or eliminate the requirement of believing, which is what Calvinists do. They claim that those God chooses (elects) to save He gives them the faith to believe, which I don't find supported in Scripture.

I think the best understanding is simply that Jesus Christ, by paying the debt of sin for mankind, purchased a free gift (eternal life) for everyone. And those who believe in Him for it receive it.

The Bible indicates that God is pleased to save those who believe, according to 1 Cor 1:21.

The Calvinist view seems to be that God is pleased to choose who will believe, again, unsupported by Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are certainly right about the misconceptions. Few know that the Bible plainly says you have to continue to believe to continue to be saved:

"9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work." (2 John 1:9-11 NIV)

24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life." (1 John 2:24-25 NIV)

"1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)

Some, if not many, are taking false comfort in a false gospel that says they can stop believing the word of the gospel and they still have the Father and the Son and eternal life. As we can see, that's not what the Bible says. That's a man-made, ear tickling teaching that causes believers to stumble and be destroyed. And many it seems are choosing to follow that road to destruction.

How come none of these verses SAY that one has to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved??

Seems one's opinions have been inserted into the Scriptures, which is called eisegesis.

There is no doubt that the Bible does encourage every believer to continue to believe. Of course. Why wouldn't it teach that? But there are NO verses that plainly say that one's salvation is based on continuing to believe.

In fact, 1 Thess 5:4-10 teaches that regardless of lifestyle, (whether we are awake or asleep), we ALL will be together with Him when He comes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How come none of these verses SAY that one has to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved??

The words are as plain as day. No interpretation required:

"9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work." (2 John 1:9-11 NIV)

24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life." (1 John 2:24-25 NIV)

"1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)

The condition for having God, the Son, and eternal life in salvation is that you keep what you heard in the beginning. These passages completely and utterly contradict the claim that a person can reject the word of the gospel and they still have those things. It's plainly written for all of us to see. It doesn't take spiritual eyes that can see to read the plain words. But it does take spiritual eyes that can see to accept and believe what is written above. I would have to be a liar to tell someone the above passages do not plainly say what they so plainly say.

Look what the Protestant church did with tithing. If they can be so utterly unBiblical with that clear teaching in the Bible it should be no surprise that they can be so utterly unBiblical with this matter of OSAS too. And the Apostle John has made it clear how we are to respond to the person who does not bring the teaching that the one who does not continue in the word of the gospel, thrusting it behind them, does not have God.

 

[Jim Parker]

He purchased the free gift of eternal life for everyone. So, the gift is available for everyone, but is given only to those who believe.

That's it.
Amen.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Some, if not many, are taking false comfort in a false gospel that says they can stop believing the word of the gospel and they still have the Father and the Son and eternal life. As we can see, that's not what the Bible says. That's a man-made, ear tickling teaching that causes believers to stumble and be destroyed. And many it seems are choosing to follow that road to destruction.

And we know what the Bible says about those who cause believers to stumble, destroying the temple of God (Matthew 18:7 NASB, 1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB). They themselves will be destroyed. I think it prudent to take a very serious, sober consideration of the warning to not cause believers to stumble And I can't think of anything worse that causes a believer to stumble and be destroyed than telling them they can stop believing because they will still be saved and they then do that. If that isn't causing a believer to stumble what is?

Time for some honest examination among those who teach that a believer in Christ can stop believing and they will still have God and the Son and eternal life.

 

[Kidron]

You are certainly right about the misconceptions. Few know that the Bible plainly says you have to continue to believe to continue to be saved:

"9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work." (2 John 1:9-11 NIV)

24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life." (1 John 2:24-25 NIV)

"1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)

Some, if not many, are taking false comfort in a false gospel that says they can stop believing the word of the gospel and they still have the Father and the Son and eternal life. As we can see, that's not what the Bible says. That's a man-made, ear tickling teaching that causes believers to stumble and be destroyed. And many it seems are choosing to follow that road to destruction.

-
The reason you teach that stuff is because you dont undertand that the Blood Atonement is not a temporary band aid that keeps falling off our sins that we keep sticking back on by confessing them, while trusting in our faith, or enduring to the end.
You have not understood that it is "eternal redemption" that Jesus died to supply. Hebrews 9:12, not temporary redemption.
So, your theology is that Jesus's Atonement is temporary redemption that must be completed by something we do.
That is Galatians 1:8
Now, what i hope you are able to do, is trust Christ to save you and keep you saved, and after you do that you will stop writing Galatians 1:8 opinions, and feel a whole lot better.
Stop trusting in your Faith to save you, and start trusting in Jesus, instead, WHO HAS ALREADY.

 

[Jim Parker]

And we know what the Bible says about those who cause believers to stumble, destroying the temple of God (Matthew 18:7 NASB, 1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB). They themselves will be destroyed. I think it prudent to take a very serious, sober consideration of the warning to not cause believers to stumble And I can't think of anything worse that causes a believer to stumble and be destroyed than telling them they can stop believing because they will still be saved and they then do that. If that isn't causing a believer to stumble what is?

Time for some honest examination among those who teach that a believer in Christ can stop believing and they will still have God and the Son and eternal life.

Amen and amen.

 

[Kidron]

I'm aware of the various explanations of the atonement. I am not one of the determinists. My understanding is that by dying for the sins of mankind, He purchased the free gift of eternal life for everyone. So, the gift is available for everyone, but is given only to those who believe.

-
Yep.
Salvation is (JESUS completed), and we are gifted it, by our faith.
We dont save ourselves, but we are SAVED by the SAVIOR'S SACRIFICE.
This is a DONE DEAL, = ETERNAL SITUATION < once GOD APPLIES IT TO US.
We are then BORN AGAIN. = Cant be unborn again.

 

[Jim Parker]

How come none of these verses SAY that one has to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved??

Actually, they do say that.

How about:
EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

And

Heb 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

 

[FreeGrace]

The words are as plain as day.

Yes, I agree. They are plain as day, and none of them says that salvation is based on continued faith.

No interpretation required:

Well, yes they do. But again, none of them say that salvation is based on continued faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

And we know what the Bible says about those who cause believers to stumble, destroying the temple of God (Matthew 18:7 NASB, 1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB). They themselves will be destroyed.

Why should anyone assume that being "destroyed" means loss of salvation?

Time for some honest examination among those who teach that a believer in Christ can stop believing and they will still have God and the Son and eternal life.

I've already addressed the consequences of rebellion among God's children. So let's revisit it:

Heb 12
5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;
6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.”
11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful (painful); yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

From my experience, it seems the majority of those who believe in loss of salvation HAVE "made lightly the discipline of the Lord", usually with snippy comments about a "mere hand slap" or some other disrespectful comment.

Any 1st Century Jew or Gentile under Roman rule clearly understood what "scourging" meant: to skin alive with a whip. Which was the way Romans punished. It wasn't pretty.

Finally, discipline, which is painful, is only beneficial to those who have been trained by it. iow, not all rebellious children receive the training. Some rebel against the training. And the Bible speaks about how God treats them; sin unto death (physical), of which the Bible provides ample examples.

 

[FreeGrace]

-
The reason you teach that stuff is because you dont undertand that the Blood Atonement is not a temporary band aid that keeps falling off our sins that we keep sticking back on by confessing them, while trusting in our faith, or enduring to the end.
You have not understood that it is "eternal redemption" that Jesus died to supply. Hebrews 9:12, not temporary redemption.
So, your theology is that Jesus's Atonement is temporary redemption that must be completed by something we do.
That is Galatians 1:8
Now, what i hope you are able to do, is trust Christ to save you and keep you saved, and after you do that you will stop writing Galatians 1:8 opinions, and feel a whole lot better.
Stop trusting in your Faith to save you, and start trusting in Jesus, instead, WHO HAS ALREADY.

Bingo!

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"How come none of these verses SAY that one has to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved??"

Actually, they do say that.

They sure don't. I do understand that some believe that is what they are teaching, but that is NOT what they SAY.

How about:
EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

What is the context here? Capital punishment, which is physical death.

And

Heb 3:12

See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

There is no reason to assume that to "share in Christ" means continue to have salvation. The word means "partnership"

metochos

1) sharing in, partaking
2) a partner (in a work, office, dignity)

The concept is also taught in 2 Tim 2:12 about reigning with Christ, which is a REWARD for obedience (enduring).

Here's the question: do you just want to be in heaven, or actually partner with Christ in His ruling over everything? I think the answer is rather obvious.

 

[JLB]

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

For Paul the blood atonement was entirely sufficient for the purposes intended. But that does not extend to the 'other party' in the equations.

Look at yourself prior to belief and you may get the same picture:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Look at a believers sins after salvation. The identical picture will appear. 1 John 3:8.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Please explain how this scripture means that Christians have the devil in their flesh.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"How come none of these verses SAY that one has to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved??"

They sure don't. I do understand that some believe that is what they are teaching, but that is NOT what they SAY.


What is the context here? Capital punishment, which is physical death.


There is no reason to assume that to "share in Christ" means continue to have salvation. The word means "partnership"

metochos

1) sharing in, partaking
2) a partner (in a work, office, dignity)

The concept is also taught in 2 Tim 2:12 about reigning with Christ, which is a REWARD for obedience (enduring).

Here's the question: do you just want to be in heaven, or actually partner with Christ in His ruling over everything? I think the answer is rather obvious.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Continue in the faith, to remain reconciled to God.

And

Are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for...

If we are moved away from the hope of the Gospel, then we are moved away from the salvation that is the hope of the Gospel.


This is what Jesus taught His disciples, which is why His disciples taught these things.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Enduring is believing.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21

Stumble - Strong's G4624 - skandalizō

to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend

1. to entice to sin
2. to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
   1. to cause to fall away
   2. to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
   3. to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
      
3. since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
   1. to cause one displeasure at a thing
   2. to make indignant
   3. to be displeased, indignant

σκανδαλίζωskandalízō, skan-dal-id'-zo; from G4625; to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):—(make to) offend.


Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

Those who depart from Him in unbelief, are no longer partakers of Christ.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

No Christ = No eternal life.
No Christ = No Salvation

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12


Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1 John 2:23



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

They sure don't. I do understand that some believe that is what they are teaching, but that is NOT what they SAY.

They don't say it in those exact words. They do say that it is necessary to continue in the faith.
"Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God" seems pretty clear to me that in order to "have God" one must "continue in the teaching of Christ."
Maybe I'm missing something. I don't understand how you would not see that.

What is the context here? Capital punishment, which is physical death.

There are two possible outcomes of our present life; (1) eternal life and (2) the "second death."
That passage is God's statement that anyone who practices evil, even if he had previously practiced righteousness, has selected outcome number (2).

 

[FreeGrace]

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Continue in the faith, to remain reconciled to God.

That isn't what the verse either says or teaches.

In v.23 we see a conditional clause, "IF indeed you continue in the faith". So, what happens IF we continue in the faith? The answer is found in the previous verse, "to present you holy, and blameless and above reproach in His sight".

iow, it is ONLY BY continuing in the faith that God can present the believer holy, and blameless and above reproach in His sight. There's no other way.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for...

If we are moved away from the hope of the Gospel, then we are moved away from the salvation that is the hope of the Gospel.

Another misread of Scripture. It doesn't either say or mean what is being claimed here.

The word for "hope" in the Greek means a confident expectation, not a wishful thinking. And those who do not continue in the faith will of course lose their confident expectation. But that isn't the same as losing salvation itself.

This is what Jesus taught His disciples, which is why His disciples taught these things.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Still trying to create a fruit salad theology, I see. Mixing apples and oranges works well for a summer salad, but doesn't work at all for biblical theology.

The context for Matt 24 is the Tribulation only. Not applicable for all of humanity.

Second, you've never yet proven your theory that believing for a while means being saved for a while, and Luke 8:13 certainly does NOT teach that. Not even close.

However, the Bible does teach that the gifts of God are irrevocable. And that eternal life is a gift of God.

So, in order to prove your theory about loss of salvation, one MUST prove from Scripture by finding a verse that directly SAYS that eternal life can be lost, taken away, forfeited, revoked, etc.

And we all know that there is no such verse anywhere in Scripture.

So, Rom 11:29 is a "blanket statement" about the gifts of God. That verse teaches us that ALL of God's gifts are irrevocable. Precisely because Paul NEVER clarified by stating that ONLY SOME of them are irrevocable, or only many are. He SAID "the gifts of God". Because there is no other modifier with the gift of God, we can rest assured that he clearly meant ALL of them. Which includes the gift of eternal life.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

This is totally unproven and only a theory. There are no verses to support such a notion.

Those who depart from Him in unbelief, are no longer partakers of Christ.

This is true, but your understanding of what it means to be a partaker of Christ means.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

When this verse is considered with Jesus' own words in John 10:28, I find it very hard to understand how one can even consider that salvation can be lost.

"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

It is Jesus that holds the believer. Which is WHY eternal life is IRREVOCABLE.

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1 John 2:23

Sure. No unbeliever either has eternal life or has salvation. No mystery there.

 

[FreeGrace]

They don't say it in those exact words. They do say that it is necessary to continue in the faith.

Not for salvation, they don't.

"Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God" seems pretty clear to me that in order to "have God" one must "continue in the teaching of Christ."
Maybe I'm missing something. I don't understand how you would not see that.

When one forces a very narrow meaning on "does not have God", then yes, they ARE missing something.

What I don't understand is how people cannot see that salvation is guaranteed regardless, because the Bible teaches that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29 and that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.

Paul NEVER added any exceptions or qualifications to his statement in 11:29. Therefore, it can be called a "blanket statement" about the gift of God. Meaning, ALL of the gifts of God are irrevocable. A.L.L. of them.

Not "most" of them. Not "some" of them. Not "all but eternal life". ALL of them.

It seems to me that the conditional security types just ignore Scripture that refutes their views.

There are two possible outcomes of our present life; (1) eternal life and (2) the "second death."

Not to the one who has believed in Jesus Christ.

Because Jesus said this:
"“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24

The fact that the one who believes:
1. HAS eternal life,
2. does NOT come into judgment
3. HAS passed out of death INTO life

proves eternal security. Combining this verse with Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 and we see a clear teaching of eternal security.

The very phrase "ETERNAL life" means a life that is ETERNAL. Such a life CANNOT experience the SECOND DEATH, or said life cannot be ETERNAL.

These are things that the conditional security types cannot explain.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is Jesus that holds the believer. Which is WHY eternal life is IRREVOCABLE.

And yet in your doctrine he lets those he holds become unbelievers.
Besides that being so contradictory, maybe he's not as powerful as you think.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When one forces a very narrow meaning on "does not have God", then yes, they ARE missing something.

There is no forcing required.
The Bible plainly says the person who does not have God, and therefore does not have the Son (because they did not continue in the word of Christ) does not have eternal life:

"...God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

I'm very confident you are the one missing something. The rest of us can read the plain words of scripture.