Justified by His Blood alone !

[Jethro Bodine]

No, they don't. And you've still NOT provided ANY reasonable explanation of where Paul in the context of Romans 11:29 excluded the gift of eternal life.

It HAS to exclude eternal life or it makes what John said here completely and utterly false.

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting" (2 John 1:9-10 NASB)

"24 ...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you." (1 John 2:24-26 NASB bold mine)​

Which then makes our Bibles and the Christian faith a worthless joke. Is that really what you want to defend?

I've bundled the verses together for easy cutting and pasting for you to use to prove he is not talking about losing eternal life. Take the challenge. Prove from these passages that John was not saying that we can lose eternal life by not continuing in the word in which we were saved.

 

[smaller]

This makes no sense. Your statement is totally unbelievable. Every person faces ONLY 1 fate. Unbelievers face the lake of fire, and believers face heaven.

That is not the only fate we should be seeing, as duly noted, unless we are blind to the obvious "other" fate to the messengers of Satan and Satan.

I think your view is pointless.

And I think your sight lacks rightful fear of God and refuses to engage the other side of the coin.

There are two fates seen with Paul. One to eternal salvation and one to eternal damnation.

Paul identifies this exactly, here:

Romans 9:
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

It's the same sight Paul laid on himself, here:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

and here:

2 Timothy 2:
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

I don't consider that it's difficult to count/account for TWO vessels. Your method has no accounting.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here, let me condense it for you:

"9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God... " (2 John 1:9 NASB)
"24 If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"12 ...he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

Explain how this does not mean that by not abiding in what you heard in the beginning you lose the Father, the Son, and eternal life.

 

[Kidron]

I insist that Kidron accept the challenge I have offered him in the spirit of forum debate.
I will leave it at that.

-
Ive exposed your "salvation by works", theology, Galatians 1:8...... in what now, 10 posts on this Thread?
Listen carefully, you'll never defeat the Blood Atonement with a scripture that talks about "enduring to the end".
But if you feel you want to continue trying to prove you can be unborn again, or that you can stop being "in Christ", or try to prove you dont have the Holy Spirt after you are born again IF you dont "abide in the teachings" ...when you dont even know what they are, then fire away, JB.
Twist on those scriptures as you would have it.
Continue to prove that you are not trusting in Jesus and his BLOOD alone to keep you saved, while He is currently in heaven right now...."making intercession for all believers" Romans 8:34..to keep them saved...... while you are trying to get them to save themselves with your "works" theology.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ive exposed your "salvation by works", theology, Galatians 1:8...... in what now, 10 posts on this Thread?
Listen carefully, you'll never defeat the Blood Atonement with a scripture that talks about "enduring to the end".
But if you feel you want to continue trying to prove you can be unborn again, or that you can stop being "in Christ", or try to prove you dont have the Holy Spirt after you are born again IF you dont "abide in the teachings" ...when you dont even know what they are, then fire away, JB.
Twist on those scriptures as you would have it.
Continue to prove that you are not trusting in Jesus and his BLOOD alone to keep you saved, while He is currently in heaven right now...."making intercession for all believers" Romans 8:34..to keep them saved...... while you are trying to get them to save themselves with your "works" theology.

I'm not saying works are how we stay saved. Nobody is. I don't know why you keep saying that. Believing and trusting in Christ to stay saved (see my signature) is not a works gospel. If you think it is, why did you say what you did as quoted in my signature?

Just take the challenge....from the verses below show us all that John is NOT saying we lose the Father, the Son, and eternal life if we don't continue in the word which we heard in the beginning.

"9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God... " (2 John 1:9 NASB)
"24 If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"12 ...he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

You have to do that to prove what you say is correct. Otherwise, what you say is in complete and utter contradiction to what John said above and, therefore, false. My doctrine is based largely on the verses above, so take them apart and prove to us that John is NOT saying you can lose eternal life. I'm directly challenging you.

 

[Kidron]

I'm not saying works are how we stay saved. Nobody is. I don't know why you keep saying that. Believing and trusting in Christ to stay saved (see my signature) is not a works gospel. If you think it is, why did you say what you did as quoted in my signature?

Just take the challenge....from the verses below show us all that John is NOT saying we lose the Father, the Son, and eternal life if we don't continue in the word which we heard in the beginning.

"9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God... " (2 John 1:9 NASB)
"24 If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"12 ...he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

You have to do that to prove what you say is correct. Otherwise, what you say is in complete and utter contradiction to what John said above and, therefore, false. My doctrine is based largely on the verses above, so take them apart and prove to us that John is NOT saying you can lose eternal life. I'm directly challenging you.

-
JB, first of all,. You just post your "stuff", and then say "there, i proved it EVERYBODY", and i pretty much just smile.
So.....Ok then, let me answer these verses for you.
Not a problem.
-

"9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God... " (2 John 1:9 NASB)

First of all, thats an awful translation you are using.
So, Lets try this one so that we can see the verse more clearly.

""""""Whoever transgresses, and stays not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that stays in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.""""

Ok, so who is this person, and what are they doing wrong.???
This person is not staying IN the Doctrine of Christ......This doctrine would be "Grace through Faith", "Justification without works".
So, this verse is telling you that the "Doctrine of Christ" is the "Gospel", and that is that The Blood Atonement saved you, and God imputed this to you by the "Doctrine of Christ" which is basically the "doctrine" of "Grace Through Faith", that we know as Pauline Theology... (Grace)
So, the offender who is not obeying this doctrine of Christ and has left it, would be YOU.
As you are the one who is not teaching "Grace", as this is the "doctrine of Christ" or the Doctrine of "Justification by Faith" as given to the Body of Christ by Paul, (and not James.)
So, you are the person this verse is describing who has rejected "Grace" which is to not "abiding" in the "doctrine of Christ".
You.


"24 If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)


JB, this is the engrafted "word" that is able to save to the uttermost, all that "believe and receive" it.
Notice it says....."what you heard"...."faith cometh by HEARING".....so that is the "seed of the word" that is planted (sown) in the heart of a >believer<...being activated by Faith = God releases Salvation unto them. = Born again.
This is the Sanctification of the body of Christ, per person, as we are "cleansed by the washing of the word".
So, this again, is a reference to the Blood Atonement being connected to the word that we hear that creates us to be born again by Faith (through the Holy Spirit), and THUS become "One" with Jesus and His Father.
And the context of this engrafted word that has sanctified us by its "washing' is vs 25, that you neglected to post....= we have Eternal Life because we are sealed unto the day of redemption by this word that "abides in us", who IS CHRIST, who is IN US, who creates us to abide in the Son and the Father, by His Blood Atonement.
"i am in them", and they are "in US"..........as Jesus is that WORD, that is "abiding" in us and us in Him...= "in Christ". .. John 17:23

If you want me to just simplify it completely then .....

"24 If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."

= "If you truly believed the "Gospel" and were TRULY SAVED, then you are sealed unto the day of redemption and are eternally secure"...."in Christ"



"12 ...he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)


There is only one who fits this description, and this is a person who is not yet saved.
As how can an unsaved person have eternal life with the Father, in heaven?


So, I hope all this helps you, as i know you are really straining over these verses for a while now.



K
<><

 

[Runner]

Ah, nothing as edifying as Christians debating Bible verses, is there?

It does seem to me that the OSAS verses can be harmonized with the enduring-to-the-end verses far more easily than the latter can be harmonized with the former. To "believe" in Jesus does not inevitably mean "believe at a point in time" but can easily be understood as "believe and continue to believe." The OSAS folks seem to me to be agenda-driven - OSAS is how it has to be because, well, this is how we want our Christianity to be. Bear in mind, I spent my formative years in the OSAS tradition - Campus Crusade, Southern Baptist seminary, Southern Baptist churches; I was always vaguely troubled by OSAS, however, and simply came to realize it was not the strongest position. This thread has obviously reached the point where there is little in the way of "discussion" going on and certainly nothing in the way of "persuading." The hang-up seems to be that the OSAS folks think the enduring-to-the-end folks are talking about "earning" (or at least "preserving") one's salvation through works, which is not what I see them saying (or I am saying) at all. Enduring in faith has nothing per se to do with works. It has to do with continuing to believe (and, of course, doing one's best to live out that belief even though one will inevitably stumble as often and as badly as an OSAS Christian). The differences in the two positions seem to me to be quite subtle - but potentially critical.

 

[FreeGrace]

Again, the challenge lies before you. Show us using the plain words of all these passages that John does not really mean eternal life can be lost when the believer loses the Father and the Son by not continuing to abide in the word that saved them:

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)​

There is nothing here about "losing" the Father or the Son. John is clearly talking about those who have believed in Christ HAVE the Father and Son, and those who never believed do NOT have the Father or the Son. Clearly.

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting" (2 John 1:9-10 NASB)

"24 ...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you." (1 John 2:24-26 NASB bold mine)

I'm getting kinda tired having to keep explaining what abiding means.
​

Don't reiterate your argument that Romans 11:29 must include eternal life (because it doesn't actually say it does).

This is simply ridiculous. The statement is OBVIOUSLY a blanket statement about the gifts of God. That means ALL of them. Not just some of them, or most of them.

What your side has consistently failed to prove is that there are ANY gifts of God that are revocable.

I already refuted that argument with the passages above.

And I just refuted your "refutation".

Now you have to address the passages above and show they don't really mean that you can lose eternal life. The challenge remains. Are you up to it?

Already did it...again.

 

[FreeGrace]

It HAS to exclude eternal life or it makes what John said here completely and utterly false.

I've already explained that those who refuse to accept the clear difference between fellowship and relationship cannot understand these passages that you've misinterpreted.

Which then makes our Bibles and the Christian faith a worthless joke. Is that really what you want to defend?

I have defended the truth, but since the truth about the difference between fellowship and relationship has been rejected, what else is there to discuss. I'm tired of just repeating the key to understanding your passages.

 

[FreeGrace]

That is not the only fate we should be seeing, as duly noted, unless we are blind to the obvious "other" fate to the messengers of Satan and Satan.

I STILL have no idea why the messenger of Satan even has a place in any discussion about eternal security, and you've failed to make it clear.

And I think your sight lacks rightful fear of God and refuses to engage the other side of the coin.

The 2 sides of the coin are:
eternal life for believers, and
lake of fire for unbelievers.
Period.

There are two fates seen with Paul. One to eternal salvation and one to eternal damnation.

This STILL makes no sense. That is DEFINITELY NOT CLEAR from 2 Cor 12:7. Please FINALLY explain how so.

Paul identifies this exactly, here:

Romans 9:
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

What??! I see nothing of what I suppose is your view here.

It's the same sight Paul laid on himself, here:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

It doesn't matter how many times this verse is quoted, I see nothing of what it seems your view is.

and here:

2 Timothy 2:
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

There is nothing here to support what seems to be your view.

I don't consider that it's difficult to count/account for TWO vessels.

Humanity includes millions of vessels. So what? Angels are NOT described as vessels, so your view has no basis from Scripture.

Your method has no accounting.

Your theory is totally unbiblical. Not to mention totally confusing and so vague as to be unintelligible.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here, let me condense it for you:

"9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God... " (2 John 1:9 NASB)
"24 If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"12 ...he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

Explain how this does not mean that by not abiding in what you heard in the beginning you lose the Father, the Son, and eternal life.

Once again, there is NOTHING HERE about LOSING the Father or the Son.

John has made clear that those who believe HAVE the Father and Son, while those who haven't believed do NOT have the Father or Son.

And abiding is about fellowship, not relationship.

Relationship is permanent, while fellowship is dynamic. But I digress and repeat myself.

 

[FreeGrace]

It does seem to me that the OSAS verses can be harmonized with the enduring-to-the-end verses far more easily than the latter can be harmonized with the former. To "believe" in Jesus does not inevitably mean "believe at a point in time" but can easily be understood as "believe and continue to believe." The OSAS folks seem to me to be agenda-driven - OSAS is how it has to be because, well, this is how we want our Christianity to be. Bear in mind, I spent my formative years in the OSAS tradition - Campus Crusade, Southern Baptist seminary, Southern Baptist churches; I was always vaguely troubled by OSAS, however, and simply came to realize it was not the strongest position.

Well, Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.
Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.
With me so far?
Paul did NOT add any exemption to 11:29, anywhere in his writings, nor did any other writer of the NT.

OSAS is the ONLY position. Strength has nothing to do with truth.

 

[WIP]

I think it's time for a break. This is no longer a debate. It is just a back and forth yes, no, yes, no,...argument that is going nowhere.