KEEPING THE FAITH

[GodsGrace]

We get new members that state they can't keep the faith
and/or are in and out of Christianity.

What do they mean exactly?
How does a person keep the faith?
How is one in and out of Christianity?
Are they lost, saved, lost, saved, etc?

I put this in The Lounge so it could be a more relaxing conversation
and verses don't necessarily have to be used, however treat it as you like.

 

[Riven]

We get new members that state they can't keep the faith
and/or are in and out of Christianity.

What do they mean exactly?
How does a person keep the faith?
How is one in and out of Christianity?
Are they lost, saved, lost, saved, etc?

I put this in The Lounge so it could be a more relaxing conversation
and verses don't necessarily have to be used, however treat it as you like.

It means that some of us are a different breed. We look at the world and see the disaster that it is and ask ourselves, what the hell kind of a god let's things continue on this way? Children getting cancer before they even have a chance to live, rape, murder, child molestation, genocide. You name it.

With great power comes great responsibility and he's not fulfilling his end of the bargain. We exist here and we suffer day in and day out. For what? What's it for? Why is this game even being played? What's the point? Faith? Really? That's it? Give me a break.

I like you, Wondering. And I feel like I can give you my honest thoughts. These are it. If this God loves us, he would put an end to the suffering. He would reveal himself and let us know he cares. But he doesn't. Why? I just don't understand.

The bible itself. How can any thinking person demand evidence for extraordinary claims made by individuals living today, but require no evidence for supposed miracles that took place thousands of years ago? You don't even know who wrote these books. Anonymous writers that could have written anything they wanted and you take it at face value? Why? Why don't you take the Quaran at face value?

It's the human condition and these questions that result in one going in and out of Christianity. People are looming for hope because they know that one day they're going to die. But they're also looking for something that makes sense.

Maybe they feel like there's something to Jesus that feels real, that feels like thee truth. But they just can't square with the rest of it. You'd have to ask them. Or ask me, if you like. I'll do my best.

 

[Highway54]

We get new members that state they can't keep the faith
and/or are in and out of Christianity.

What do they mean exactly?
How does a person keep the faith?
How is one in and out of Christianity?
Are they lost, saved, lost, saved, etc?

I put this in The Lounge so it could be a more relaxing conversation
and verses don't necessarily have to be used, however treat it as you like.

To literally keep the faith, one would be obedient to the commandments of God 1 Jn 5:3

 

[GodsGrace]

To literally keep the faith, one would be obedient to the commandments of God 1 Jn 5:3

You mean ALWAYS?

 

[GodsGrace]

It means that some of us are a different breed. We look at the world and see the disaster that it is and ask ourselves, what the hell kind of a god let's things continue on this way? Children getting cancer before they even have a chance to live, rape, murder, child molestation, genocide. You name it.

Hi Riven,
Sorry for delay.
I'm having a problem with my knee and I can't sit here as long as I thought my reply would take.

With great power comes great responsibility and he's not fulfilling his end of the bargain. We exist here and we suffer day in and day out. For what? What's it for? Why is this game even being played? What's the point? Faith? Really? That's it? Give me a break.

Yeah. What can I say? I agree.
And don't think you and I are the only ones!
Welcome to the club.
Every Christian goes through this and asks himself why.

I don't know how long you've been a Christian, but do you know what the biggest problem of Christianity is?
The problem of why there's evil in the world.
It's called Theodicy. Yes, it's an actual theological study.
It asks the forever unanswerable question:
Why does God allow this if He's all powerful and all good?
I think you know how it goes...
God either does not have the power to change things,
or He doesn't have enough goodness in Him to do so.

I like you, Wondering. And I feel like I can give you my honest thoughts. These are it. If this God loves us, he would put an end to the suffering. He would reveal himself and let us know he cares. But he doesn't. Why? I just don't understand.

Each of us has to come to accept two things on our own, in our own mind, and intelligence and capability:
One is how to understand the OT.
Is it literal?
Is some of it literal and some not?
Did God really do all those things it says He did?
Are all those rules by God or are some by Moses?
What's it all about anyway?

The other is how to understand evil and how to accept it.
Some say that there's no such THING (a noun) as evil.
It's just the absence (deprivation) of good.
You'll hear that right here on this forum, and some good Christian scholars believe this too.

Others, me included, believe that evil is a real thing (a noun).
A hurricane is not the absence of a mild breeze - it's a real thing.
We humans cause a lot of pain, but what about animals? Why are they suffering as much as we do?

So the question remains....why is there evil?
Are there two Gods? That would be dualism and everyone demands that it cannot be so.
The Reformed/Calvinists proclaim that God Himself created evil. (they might deny this, but they do believe this).
What else?

I've come to the conclusion that we can't know, so I don't think about it so much.
When I was your age I thought about it a lot...eventually you just have to give up.
Know that there is a God that created all this,
and admit that we'll never know everything while on this earth.

The bible itself. How can any thinking person demand evidence for extraordinary claims made by individuals living today, but require no evidence for supposed miracles that took place thousands of years ago? You don't even know who wrote these books. Anonymous writers that could have written anything they wanted and you take it at face value? Why? Why don't you take the Quaran at face value?

The Qu'ran was written by a man.
The bible was written over a span of about 1,500 years by different persons and it seems as though one person wrote it. It's definitely inspired by God. But did God sit down and write each word? No.
And, as I said above, you do have to come to some understanding that satisfies YOU.

It's the human condition and these questions that result in one going in and out of Christianity. People are looming for hope because they know that one day they're going to die. But they're also looking for something that makes sense.

God makes sense.
The NT makes sense
Jesus makes sense.
It's pretty obvious that we have a soul/spirit that lives on.
All these NDE that happen and are unexplainable.
I just know that when I die I want to go to be with God and will worship Him as best I could until that day.
And when I fail, He'll forgive me if I'm sorry. And how could we not be sorry to hurt Jesus, the person that died to atone for our sinful selves.

Maybe they feel like there's something to Jesus that feels real, that feels like thee truth. But they just can't square with the rest of it. You'd have to ask them. Or ask me, if you like. I'll do my best.

How do we square ourselves with everything outside of the NT?
How could we know everything about God?
That's like an ant knowing everything about a human...it's impossible.
So what is there to square? Some things won't be squared...

 

[Riven]

Hi Riven,
Sorry for delay.
I'm having a problem with my knee and I can't sit here as long as I thought my reply would take.

Hi, wondering
It's no trouble.

I don't know how long you've been a Christian, but do you know what the biggest problem of Christianity is?
The problem of why there's evil in the world.
It's called Theodicy. Yes, it's an actual theological study.
It asks the forever unanswerable question:
Why does God allow this if He's all powerful and all good?
I think you know how it goes...
God either does not have the power to change things,
or He doesn't have enough goodness in Him to do so.

It seems likely that God Himself set all of this in motion on purpose. Why was there forbidden fruit in the garden? What was the point? It seems to have been a complete setup from the very beginning. To be punished for exercising our own free will. Free will that we are given by this creator but not to ever exercise it. It's bizarre to say the least.

Each of us has to come to accept two things on our own, in our own mind, and intelligence and capability:
One is how to understand the OT.
Is it literal?
Is some of it literal and some not?
Did God really do all those things it says He did?
Are all those rules by God or are some by Moses?
What's it all about anyway?

Well, I think those are great questions. I don't understand how anyone can take the OT stories literally and not come away with a sense that this any extremely evil God indeed.

The flooding of the world, near genocidal act. If not for Noah and his family being spared, it would have been a compete genocide of our species. And for what? For choosing to live how we want to, or how those people chose to live at the time. Again, it's yet another case of God punishing the human race for exercising our free will that have freely gave us.

Another example would be the killing of the first born children of Egypt. These are innocent children that have no part in the struggles of the day, and yet God kills them anyway to push the Egyptians. Again, how is this not evil?

The other is how to understand evil and how to accept it.
Some say that there's no such THING (a noun) as evil.
It's just the absence (deprivation) of good.
You'll hear that right here on this forum, and some good Christian scholars believe this too.

I had someone on this forum just tell me that human beings are equivalent to clay pots and that God has the right to do with us as he wishes. This to me, is a window into the mind of abject slave. And what's more, there appears to be a burning desire among people like this to want to be a slave. To be ordered around and told what to do in ever facet of their lives. For the life of me, I cannot understand where this desire comes from or why anyone would want to live this way.

We humans cause a lot of pain, but what about animals? Why are they suffering as much as we do?

Certainly one wonders what the animals did to deserve their fate in all of this. Truth be told, probably nothing.

So the question remains....why is there evil?
Are there two Gods? That would be dualism and everyone demands that it cannot be so.
The Reformed/Calvinists proclaim that God Himself created evil. (they might deny this, but they do believe this).
What else?

God would have had to intentionally create evil for it to exist. Given the story of the garden, if taken literally, it means he himself manipulated Adam and Eve into eating from a tree that he put there seemingly for no reason other than to cause the fall of man. I don't take the story literally, but there are those that do and I question how they can come away from the story thinking God is the good guy in this story.

I've come to the conclusion that we can't know, so I don't think about it so much.
When I was your age I thought about it a lot...eventually you just have to give up.
Know that there is a God that created all this,
and admit that we'll never know everything while on this earth.

For sure. There's no way for us to know for sure, and even if there were, we would no doubt be punished for it because reasons. Lol.

The Qu'ran was written by a man.
The bible was written over a span of about 1,500 years by different persons and it seems as though one person wrote it. It's definitely inspired by God. But did God sit down and write each word? No.
And, as I said above, you do have to come to some understanding that satisfies YOU.

Well it begs the question, why didn't God write the book himself? One would think that if you're trying to convey a message to mankind about your existence and who you are, you would be the one to write the book so that there are no contradictions and no question whatsoever that this is indeed the word of God.

But that's not what we get. What we get instead is a sort of all you can eat buffet of holy books and religions to choose from that require interpretation and mental gymnastics in order for one to think for a moment that it is divinely inspired.

How do we square ourselves with everything outside of the NT?
How could we know everything about God?
That's like an ant knowing everything about a human...it's impossible.
So what is there to square? Some things won't be squared...

The problem is that the religion itself a ton of issues that otherwise wouldn't be present. If you accept that a divine being had to create the universe in order for it to exist, that's fine. You will accept that this is a divine being that you will never understand in your lifetime.

But it becomes a real problem when you read the stories in the bible where God is portrayed as this character that gets directly involved in the lives of people. Either by helping them or killing them. There you have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics in order to try to figure out why he doesn't do this today.

So it becomes really messy really fast. To me, the most logical assumption based on observing reality itself, is that God does exist, but he does not interfere with the material world one way or another. It's either that or he stopped interacting with us for seemingly no reason.

 

[Fretslide]

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. (Pro 3:5-6), For me, this is how I keep the faith. I can't do it, but He can and when I bow my will to Him, thats when progress is made.

 

[Fastfredy0]

With great power comes great responsibility and he's not fulfilling his end of the bargain.

God is responsible to no one. To be responsible there must be an authority greater than God to give Him responsibilities to fulfill. God answers to no one.

We exist here and we suffer day in and day out. For what? What's it for? Why is this game even being played? What's the point? Faith? Really? That's it? Give me a break.

Perhaps you are looking at things from the wrong view point, the human view point. Perhaps you should look at things from God's view point (the only on that matters). Perhaps you will get an answer when you correctly assess what is God's purpose according to God rather than man's viewpoint of how God should interact according the the depraved mind of man.

Eph. 1:11 according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will,
What is God's purpose?
If the purpose of redemption as well as of creation and of providence is:

1. the production of the greatest amount of happiness, then Christianity is one thing; (This seems to be your premise)
2. if the end be the glory of God, then Christianity is another thing. (This may be the true premise)

 

[GodsGrace]

God is responsible to no one. To be responsible there must be an authority greater than God to give Him responsibilities to fulfill. God answers to no one.



Perhaps you are looking at things from the wrong view point, the human view point. Perhaps you should look at things from God's view point (the only on that matters). Perhaps you will get an answer when you correctly assess what is God's purpose according to God rather than man's viewpoint of how God should interact according the the depraved mind of man.

Eph. 1:11 according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will,
What is God's purpose?
If the purpose of redemption as well as of creation and of providence is:

1. the production of the greatest amount of happiness, then Christianity is one thing; (This seems to be your premise)
2. if the end be the glory of God, then Christianity is another thing. (This may be the true premise)

You could see things from God's viewpoint.
That's quite a feat.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think can be over churched. Into church culture reject church culture…

And somehow never truly know Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. (Pro 3:5-6), For me, this is how I keep the faith. I can't do it, but He can and when I bow my will to Him, thats when progress is made.

Jesus said that we're to be like children because heaven is made of such as they. This is wonderful for those that can achieve this.
Others need to understand, have questions answered, cannot let go. You're to be envied.

 

[WIP]

Jesus said that we're to be like children because heaven is made of such as they. This is wonderful for those that can achieve this.
Others need to understand, have questions answered, cannot let go. You're to be envied.

Isn't that where trust enters the picture? When we accuse God, what happens to our trust?

 

[Riven]

God is responsible to no one. To be responsible there must be an authority greater than God to give Him responsibilities to fulfill. God answers to no one.

Yes, the Old Testament conveys exactly that. Hence the genocide, the child murder, the raping and pillaging of various tribes, etc.

Perhaps you are looking at things from the wrong view point, the human view point. Perhaps you should look at things from God's view point (the only on that matters).

And how do I go about doing this?

Perhaps you will get an answer when you correctly assess what is God's purpose according to God rather than man's viewpoint of how God should interact according the the depraved mind of man.

Where is the depravity in anything that I've said here?

 

[Fretslide]

Jesus said that we're to be like children because heaven is made of such as they. This is wonderful for those that can achieve this.
Others need to understand, have questions answered, cannot let go. You're to be envied.

oh I NEED to understand things alright but trusting in Him instead of insisting I have answers is part of me bowing my will to Him. Just something little that you decide to give to Him will be a good start. I didn't think I could let go to begin with but after starting with small things that I didn't really view as important, I was able to move up to some of the bigger things and ironically I also started to get some of the answers to things I had surrendered

 

[Fastfredy0]

You could see things from God's viewpoint.
That's quite a feat.

That's why we have scripture. Granted, the finite cannot understand the infinite, but scripture gives us some glimpse of truth as opposed to the uninformed thoughts of depraved creatures who cast God into human patterns.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Isn't that where trust enters the picture? When we accuse God, what happens to our trust?

You are right in that we need to trust God. And when we accuse God of evil, then we can be sure He will never give us any answers until we repent as we are taking the position of the Devil who accused God (wrongly) of evil way back in the Garden and continues to do so. And he if can get Christians to accuse God of evil, so much the better. Then he has set it up for them to fall away more easily.

Now I know God and have asked Him pretty much all these questions and have gotten answers and understand how and why evil exists and so on. I understand why people are the way they are and understand what God does and why and what He does not do and why. But the answers are COMPLEX. There aren't simply answers anymore than understanding newtonian physics is simple. I studied medicine and while it looks like eating your dinner is a simple answer as to why you feel better after having done so, but the biochemistry involved is a lot more complex.

What I can say that is that I do not have to trust that God is good in how the world is set up and what he does. It is not a matter of trust. I KNOW He is good. It is not a boast, it is a fact. That is not a question in my mind as I have understanding of these things after pursuing Him for 50+ years. But I will add that there is a price to be paid for this knowledge. It is called obedience. It is obeying the Holy Spirit sufficiently to have my character changed sufficiently that He could open my mind to understanding. It was not free and it was not cheap. But it was the pearl of great value I sold all other values to obtain, and I am deeply satisfied in my intellectual understanding of Him and have come to love Him with my mind.

So can I answer these questions? Yes I can. But from experience I know that those asking them most often do not want answers. They want excuses and these questions are convenient for that purpose. It is like the lawyer who wanted to excuse himself from the "love your neighbor" law by asking just who is supposed to be his neighbor anyway. He wanted an excuse.

I am sorry for my brethren who do not really want answers but want to accuse God of evil to justify themselves. They will one day stand before Him and be deeply ashamed that they accused Goodness itself of being evil. If one wants answers, then one will have to abandon asking the same question. That is the least price one will have to pay as a failure to do so shows that the question is a smoke screen. Having Answers was never really the goal.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We get new members that state they can't keep the faith
and/or are in and out of Christianity.

What do they mean exactly?
How does a person keep the faith?
How is one in and out of Christianity?
Are they lost, saved, lost, saved, etc?

I put this in The Lounge so it could be a more relaxing conversation
and verses don't necessarily have to be used, however treat it as you like.

Jesus described what happens when one loses the faith and why. He said it is because of trouble in life or the pleasures of life that cause the Word of God in them that once was a plant, to wither and die. It is a slow process same as a plant dying for lack takes some times and happens slowly. It happens with no warnings or signs that it is happening. If one neglects one's salvation, it is gone after a time same as any other gift.

And No, God is not keeping the faith for you. No, He is not doing all the work to keep you believing. He helps but is not responsible. But just like any relationship that is lost, it happens slowly over time from neglecting to make the choices that would strengthen it. It is a long slide with lots of chances to change the direction. So one is not in and out of Christianity. That is not the description Jesus gives same as one is not in and out of being married over the course of a day. But gifts can be lost through neglect.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It means that some of us are a different breed. We look at the world and see the disaster that it is and ask ourselves, what the hell kind of a god let's things continue on this way? Children getting cancer before they even have a chance to live, rape, murder, child molestation, genocide. You name it.

With great power comes great responsibility and he's not fulfilling his end of the bargain. We exist here and we suffer day in and day out. For what? What's it for? Why is this game even being played? What's the point? Faith? Really? That's it? Give me a break.

I like you, Wondering. And I feel like I can give you my honest thoughts. These are it. If this God loves us, he would put an end to the suffering. He would reveal himself and let us know he cares. But he doesn't. Why? I just don't understand.

The bible itself. How can any thinking person demand evidence for extraordinary claims made by individuals living today, but require no evidence for supposed miracles that took place thousands of years ago? You don't even know who wrote these books. Anonymous writers that could have written anything they wanted and you take it at face value? Why? Why don't you take the Quaran at face value?

It's the human condition and these questions that result in one going in and out of Christianity. People are looming for hope because they know that one day they're going to die. But they're also looking for something that makes sense.

Maybe they feel like there's something to Jesus that feels real, that feels like thee truth. But they just can't square with the rest of it. You'd have to ask them. Or ask me, if you like. I'll do my best.

I suspect that the "gospel" the church teaches plays a large role. That is, the measure of being "in" is saying one prayer asking Jesus into your heart. That is it. And the church will clap and cheer and tell you that you are now going to Heaven even though you know NOTHING WHATSOEVER changed inside. So in these cases, a formal "please Jesus" does not mean that they are "in the faith." It means the church had a few moments of happiness deciding they are in. In some churches they will tell you that this is guaranteed, even worse.

So I suspect that some who are in and out were never in to begin with and it is the cheap grace Gospel that is at fault.

"Many will come to me in that day saying "Lord lord" (calling on the same of the Lord so a sure in right) to whom I will say, "depart from me, I never knew you (despite the sinner's prayer you prayed ever chance it came up.)"

 

[Riven]

I suspect that the "gospel" the church teaches plays a large role. That is, the measure of being "in" is saying one prayer asking Jesus into your heart. That is it. And the church will clap and cheer and tell you that you are now going to Heaven even though you know NOTHING WHATSOEVER changed inside. So in these cases, a formal "please Jesus" does not mean that they are "in the faith." It means the church had a few moments of happiness deciding they are in. In some churches they will tell you that this is guaranteed, even worse.

So I suspect that some who are in and out were never in to begin with and it is the cheap grace Gospel that is at fault.

"Many will come to me in that day saying "Lord lord" (calling on the same of the Lord so a sure in right) to whom I will say, "depart from me, I never knew you (despite the sinner's prayer you prayed ever chance it came up.)"

Cheap grace as opposed to what?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Where is the depravity in anything that I've said here?

You are thinking like a man who knows the actual meaning of words. The Calvinist changes that meaning, “depraved,” to something totally different. It has nothing to do with what you say or do for them, hard as that is to believe, it’s true. The babe born yesterday is “totally depraved” to them. It’s a “theological construct” that frees the adherent from REAL guilt for wrong done in exchange for fake guilt about a supposed sin nature they can’t help. See how it works? You needn’t repent of stealing but instead repent of a “depraved” nature you were born with. (And you can still keep what you stole to boot…such a deal!)