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Killing and the Christian

lesjude

Member
The principle of Mat. 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all. No killing or wounding or returning evil by a Christian. This is what father God had always intended in the old and new testaments.

Gen. 4:7-8
: Cain made the wrong sacrifice which opened the door to sin of hatred, jealousy and finally killing. The sacrifice Christians are to make is in Romans 12:1-2. When they do not do this and yield to the Holy Spirit training as to what this means they will do what is right in their own sight. This often results in operating in expediency (armed guards in churches) which is operating on the knowledge of good and evil not the Holy Spirit of Life. Note what Jesus says in Mat. 26:52. The disciples surely had a reason to wound and kill to defend each other and Jesus. Also Rev 13:7-10 The antichrist is killing saints and they are to follow nonresistance.

Genesis 4
: 23-24 tells of a killing for a wounding and possibly to save his own life. He indicates he realizes this was wrong with the statement he makes about Cain in vs 24.

Genesis 8:6-7
is a clear statement on killing. The exception being capital punishment (Old and New testaments) and the OT wars of God's judgments on nations whose cup of iniquity was full. Acts 17:25-27 speaks of all being one blood. God's heart at this time is that men be saved not killed or injured, especially not by carnal Christians defending themselves or others.

King David is a type of Christ and was called by God a man after His own heart. However, Father God told him he could not build the temple because he had shed much blood on the earth in His sight, even though these were nations under judgment in wars God had directed. See I Chron. 22:7-8 and I Chron. 28:3. What is Jesus' view of "just" wars and physical violence? Luke 9:51-56. The disciples did not know what spirit they were of! They thought they had a "good" and Biblical response (see Elisha). Christians who either do not have the Holy Spirit or do not submit to His training in this area end up using 'expediency' or OT justifications for their violence which there is none there either.

Every non believer that a Christian kills ends up in the pit which was the point of what Jesus said in Luke 9:55-56. Then after you wound them, or talk to the ones who are left that are not killed, it makes it hard to tell them about the love of the Lord.

Some justify war by saying the US is a Christian nation. There is no such thing. There are nations with the King's citizens in them being salt and light, not acting like the world and serving its Godless systems, or relying on the expediency of armed guards in churches. see Ezra 8:21-23.

At this point some anecdotal evidence is in order. Nate Saint and those with him who died rather than defend themselves or each other is an example. I will say they were told by leadership not to go and may be the reason for no Divine protection.

On Killing
by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has some good points. After the battle of Gettysburg (the South lost) 100's of rifles were gathered up from the battlefield. Many were double and triple loaded. The reluctance to kill with an individual weapon seemed to be the reason. To cover their reluctance they did not fire but "reloaded". He goes on with more evidence throughout history to support the point, and the ways the military and our society has overcome this.

Also he establishes the killing as the cause of PTSD. His ways to overcome this are junk but his evidence is compelling. This is sowing and reaping for violation of God:s laws. PTSD is easily overcome by repentance and deliverance. How an airborne ranger and Delta force operator got set free when we had the privilege of ministering deliverance to him is an interesting story.

General S. L. A. Marshall also makes the same point with his unique method of interviewing WW II, Korean War and Vietnam soldiers right after close combat. He interviewed the handful of survivors of Able CO. that hit the Dog Green sector on Omaha Beach. He talked with about 20 men not killed or wounded of over 200. It was the beach that Saving Private Ryan tried to show at the start of the film. He discovered a very high percentage that did not fire their personal weapons in these wars except Vietnam. By then the military had devised training to partially overcome the God given resistance to killing.

In Vietnam one platoon of less than 30 men stood off a force of 200 very determined NVA all night with no artillery and some of the time with no illumination. Near the end, having very little ammo left, knowing they were as good as dead they just all started laughing! Captured NVA later said this really affected their morale. I think the US troops had the resistance to killing removed and the NVA didn't. This platoon was mostly just a regular bunch of draftees that had not even seen "the elephant" yet.

This training is so effective, along with the conditioning to violence that our society provides, that troops will assault immediately when ambushed by a superior well protected force and win! In training the same men thought to themselves, never will I do this! The other force probably still had that bothersome inhibition.

The US Marines seem to be most open about telling recruits this, and perhaps best at it. They tell all their 'boots' that they will make them into trained killers!
 
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Why do you suppose Jesus instructed his followers to buy swords?
 
Why do you suppose Jesus instructed his followers to buy swords?

It's a symbol of the greater level of rejection that the Apostles will face in the coming days and years. Where once they were at leasted ignored soon they will be attacked. Jesus is foreshadowing this new aggression against them by saying "be ready for some dangerous times ahead."

It's also a statement that, while a Christian ought to turn the other cheek, it doesn't mean you must lay down and let your life be forfeit whenever someone becomes aggressive towards you. There is a difference between taking a slap (turn your cheek) and taking a mortal blow.
 
you know i have never taken a life in combat and yet i had ptsd and ptsd can be caused by an major traumatic event. i had a gf who had ptsd like symptoms from a carwreck she was in.

what do you think god meant when he said that the saints shall judge the world?or that the sword in romans 13 isnt for vain.
 
I have friends who are non-military and have PTSD. Many of them are firefighters. One in particular cannot hear a popping sound without jumping out of his seat because it reminds him of the sound of burning lumber. Feel it may also be relevant to point out that he is a vegan and is against all killing... and yet he suffers from a diagnosed case of PTSD. Almost all of my EMT friends have PTSD in one form or another. PTSD is from high stress/high trauma events. Almost everyone who enters the emergency response field has it to some degree.

The blood that David split, and the blood that God cares about in that passage, is the blood of fellow Jews. David slew Jews while he was working with the Philistines. This is the blood that matters to God.

Now I'm not trying to justify murder, but there is a difference between murder and killing. Murder is when you unjustly take the life of another. Killing is the taking of any life. Some killings are justifiable. When you kill someone in defense of yours and your own that is a justifiable killing. This distinction is one that the Bible makes very clear. The same with war. War isn't murder if it is justifiable, that is you are not the aggressor.
 
Why do you suppose Jesus instructed his followers to buy swords?

Luke 22:36-38

New King James Version (NKJV)

36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’[a] For the things concerning Me have an end.â€
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.â€
And He said to them, “It is enough.â€

Jesus had a purpose for this. He was going to teach them an important lesson:

Matthew 26:50-52

New King James Version (NKJV)

50 But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?â€
Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him. 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish[a] by the sword.

And then Jesus did this:

Luke 22:50-51

New King James Version (NKJV)

50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear.
51 But Jesus answered and said, “Permit even this.†And He touched his ear and healed him.


The swordsman was none other than Peter:

John 18:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.

The disciples learned the lesson well. They never used a weapon again. They used the unlimited power of the Holy Spirit they received at the Acts 2:4 experience and the sword of God's word.
 
you know i have never taken a life in combat and yet i had ptsd and ptsd can be caused by an major traumatic event. i had a gf who had ptsd like symptoms from a carwreck she was in.

what do you think god meant when he said that the saints shall judge the world?or that the sword in romans 13 isnt for vain.

The saints will Judge the world but clearly not until the end of the age. Until then the heart of Father God is salvation, not judgement. The overcomers in Rev chapters 2 and 3 will rule and reign with Christ for His 1000 year Kingdom on the Earth after the great tribulation.
Judgement will also be done by those same saints during tribulation. Rev 14:1-5 and Rev 19:11-16
 
Luke 22:36-38

New King James Version (NKJV)

36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’[a] For the things concerning Me have an end.â€
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.â€
And He said to them, “It is enough.â€

Jesus had a purpose for this. He was going to teach them an important lesson:

Matthew 26:50-52

New King James Version (NKJV)

50 But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?â€
Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him. 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish[a] by the sword.

And then Jesus did this:

Luke 22:50-51

New King James Version (NKJV)

50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear.
51 But Jesus answered and said, “Permit even this.†And He touched his ear and healed him.


The swordsman was none other than Peter:

John 18:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.

The disciples learned the lesson well. They never used a weapon again. They used the unlimited power of the Holy Spirit they received at the Acts 2:4 experience and the sword of God's word.

The disciples learned the lesson well. They never used a weapon again.


And would you explain how you now this?
 
The disciples learned the lesson well. They never used a weapon again.


And would you explain how you now this?
There is no evidence of it in scripture. In fact the opposite all through the book of Acts and Paul's epistles.
 
It's a symbol of the greater level of rejection that the Apostles will face in the coming days and years. Where once they were at leasted ignored soon they will be attacked. Jesus is foreshadowing this new aggression against them by saying "be ready for some dangerous times ahead."

It's also a statement that, while a Christian ought to turn the other cheek, it doesn't mean you must lay down and let your life be forfeit whenever someone becomes aggressive towards you. There is a difference between taking a slap (turn your cheek) and taking a mortal blow.

Jesus apparently did not think this way and His disciples are clearly told to be like Him, conformed to the stature and fullness of Christ. Ephesians 4:13
 
Well, I'm bored. I think I am going to just sit here and see how long it takes for this thread to get shut down...
 
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I have friends who are non-military and have PTSD. Many of them are firefighters. One in particular cannot hear a popping sound without jumping out of his seat because it reminds him of the sound of burning lumber. Feel it may also be relevant to point out that he is a vegan and is against all killing... and yet he suffers from a diagnosed case of PTSD. Almost all of my EMT friends have PTSD in one form or another. PTSD is from high stress/high trauma events. Almost everyone who enters the emergency response field has it to some degree.
Please do this for your friends. I did it for mine and Jesus set him free.
Mark 16:17-18

New King James Version (NKJV)


17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[
a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recove
r.”


The blood that David split, and the blood that God cares about in that passage, is the blood of fellow Jews. David slew Jews while he was working with the Philistines. This is the blood that matters to God.

David never did this. Please see these: 1 Sam 27:8-12, 1 Sam 29:1-11. In fact the opposite:1 Sam 23:1-13, and 1 Sam 25:2-44.


Now I'm not trying to justify murder, but there is a difference between murder and killing. Murder is when you unjustly take the life of another. Killing is the taking of any life. Some killings are justifiable. When you kill someone in defense of yours and your own that is a justifiable killing. This distinction is one that the Bible makes very clear. The same with war. War isn't murder if it is justifiable, that is you are not the aggressor.
Please see my comments below your statements above.
The promises in Psalm 91 work for believers' protection. No need to defend ourselves if you meet the conditions it mentions.

Please give scripture for the distinction you say is made clear.
The unregenerate state determines if a war is 'just' or not. The Bible says the opposite for the Christian. You should do some investigating on the reasons the US people were convinced war was necessary in every war that they ever fought. You will not find the information in any history book however and it will surprise you. It did me. It can be found in scholarly sources, not conspiracy advocates.
Do you really believe that Jesus accepts any reason for killing in war for a Christian when he died to save them? He made it very clear that it is not his heart. Should it not be a believer's heart as well?
All the US wars were nominal Christians killing nominal Christians from Am. Rev to WWII. The Civil War was the worst. The rest of the US wars have been killing unbelievers, MANY who are noncombatants and non Christian.
 
There once was a man who prayed to God every day and he asked God that he would let him win the lottery. And this man prayed to God every day of his life. And when he died he went to God and asked "Lord, why didn't you let me win the lottery?" And to this the Lord replied, "You never bought a ticket."

Now I don't gamble or buy lottery tickets, and I don't think it's right to, however even if you agree with me that it isn't right you cane surely see what I mean by the story. God doesn't always work with flashes of light and claps of thunder. It seems to me that it is just as much an act of God when the woman who has never touched a firearm in her entire life picks up her later husband's revolver and blindly fires it at the would-be rapist/murder who enters her house and ends up killing him before he can kill her with his shotgun. This really happened a few years ago. She literally pointed the gun around the corner and fired it once, hit him square in the head at 30 feet.

But you are right about David, that is my mistake. Teaches me for trying to use what I heard from the other room on some TV show about David. Must admit, not the world's largest fan of the OT. But I've got OT classes in the fall so that'll fix that right up.

And I'm not actually sure what you're talking about with the war thing, but pretty sure I could come up with a dozen very good reasons to entire World War I and II and the Revolution, and some of the "conflicts" as it were.
 
There once was a man who prayed to God every day and he asked God that he would let him win the lottery. And this man prayed to God every day of his life. And when he died he went to God and asked "Lord, why didn't you let me win the lottery?" And to this the Lord replied, "You never bought a ticket."

Now I don't gamble or buy lottery tickets, and I don't think it's right to, however even if you agree with me that it isn't right you cane surely see what I mean by the story. God doesn't always work with flashes of light and claps of thunder. It seems to me that it is just as much an act of God when the woman who has never touched a firearm in her entire life picks up her later husband's revolver and blindly fires it at the would-be rapist/murder who enters her house and ends up killing him before he can kill her with his shotgun. This really happened a few years ago. She literally pointed the gun around the corner and fired it once, hit him square in the head at 30 feet.

But you are right about David, that is my mistake. Teaches me for trying to use what I heard from the other room on some TV show about David. Must admit, not the world's largest fan of the OT. But I've got OT classes in the fall so that'll fix that right up.
Have you read Psalm 91? It works for believers who meet the conditions for those issues you mentioned.
She will never be the same again.
 
Yeah I read it, and know it. I merely doubt, what I assume you feel, which is that it always must come about through lightning and an army of angels. Mysterious ways doesn't mean they can't be simple ways also.
 
so why hasnt god saved all them murdered christians in darfur, whom were raped and also had their breasts removed so that the babies would starve slowly? where was god when those christians died as martyrs. if do you want to be a cop or soldier thats fine but dont lay a guilt trip on those CALLED to do that.

i hate violence and you wont see me enjoying gore etc. i do what i do because of my word to my country.if david was a murder and all the hebrews ie joshua why then was the tabernacle built?not there is difference tween the tabernacle and temple(s) of solomon and zerubabel and herod.
 
so why hasnt god saved all them murdered christians in darfur, whom were raped and also had their breasts removed so that the babies would starve slowly? where was god when those christians died as martyrs. if do you want to be a cop or soldier thats fine but dont lay a guilt trip on those CALLED to do that.
I do not see that call in the Bible. Please give me scripture. The believers' enemies are not flesh and blood. Ephesians 6:12
Martyrs are just that, martyrs. I am not sure all were martyrs.
What was done was horrible, there are also reliable sources that much was exaggerated for political purposes. Were they all believers or nominal Christians. God never approves of rebellion against authority for any reason. All authority is ordained by God. Romans 13:1-10. Note verse 2.
Hebrews 11:35-39

New King James Version (NKJV)



Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[a] were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

i hate violence and you wont see me enjoying gore etc. i do what i do because of my word to my country.if david was a murder and all the hebrews ie joshua why then was the tabernacle built?not there is difference tween the tabernacle and temple(s) of solomon and zerubabel and herod.
King David and the others were NOT murders when they fought God's wars of judgement against those God had given over 300 years to repent and they did not. No one will receive God's judgement until the end of the age. Men will have all the time they need to receive Jesus.
The Spirit of God was never in Herod's temple. Solomon built the first temple because he was not a man of war. He also may have been one of the worst things that happened to Israel, but that is another story.
Every Christian should know what kingdom his principle citizenship is in, how to relate to the Kingdom of God, and the nation he happens to be a pilgrim in, just passing through. The Bible is very clear on the obligations to each and which one our loyalty is to be to.
Please re read my post. It is a VERY difficult issue for most. Do you have the Acts 2:4 experience?
 
im go where im called. trust me i dont like my countries leadership. at present i cant finanacally afford to leave the guard. that said my chaplain has asked me to consider doing some of that work.

a humbling request, one that i dont take lightly, i refuse to take lightly.so god said let someone rape your wife so that the gospel may be passed on? did he say if you see evil turn the cheek and not call the law? no he didnt. common sense. if i see evil and i have step in to stop it. i dont play hero when i have but i will and have called the cops to stop crimes.

none of the soldiers were asked by jesus to stop being roman soldiers, they were just told to treat the jews and other locals humanely.i far more non-violent then you think. i dont watch gore nor enjoy mindless violence, though i train in the acts of it so that i may save my life or anothers.


i have been in prayer with god and he warned me of an ambush, one sec later it happened. it was a training event but surely after 15yrs of being with him and in the service one would think that i would be called away. but it hasnt come to me. there has been times i should have waited longer then i did to reup. but still by now that conviction would have come and i could have ets'd.

that said so you partake of the goverments protection when you call the cops and they act in authority over you. one cant say its a sin to be a cop then use that cop to do the job that you cant do. to me thats like saying its a sin for that girl to wear short shorts but i think i will ask to her keep wearing them shorts.

i know all about war and what death does.
 
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