[_ Old Earth _] Kirk Cameron grateful for Atheist help

[Barbarian]

Then why if the Lord knows the beggining and end of anything and everything how does evolution fit the picture?

It's just the way He decided to do it. As you've probably seen here before, it turns out that evolution works better than design for very complex problems. As usual, He knew best.

Think about this, if you know that your choice to drive somewhere has a certain route that is longer than another route which one are you going to use?

My GPS gives me that option. Depends on whether I want to get from A to B as fast as possible, or if I want to do it with as little milage as possible, or if I just want to enjoy the scenery.

Given the splendors He's put into this world, I'd guess for Him, it's the last one.

 

[jasoncran]

that was in reference to God is outside time then why would he need to design things with the evolotion. If you know that when take one step will take you and the very path you on and the end of it. Why would you need to allow all the oppsies just make the thing able to do what it does, btw this earth is dying and is under the curse, we are looking at the earth under the curse, not how it was orginally made, surely you believe that verse in romans 1,

btw gps are known to fail and be inaccurate. I saw one do that recently.

I wont be evolving my water pump on my truck in a few hours, I will in a delibarate manner put it on. I know that isnt evolution as you state it but we have to make mistakes and learn. God is all knowing according to you. If he is why then make something that needs to change and be advanced, why not be completely perfect.

I think we are seeing the curse put upon creation, not what is supposed to be. If the Lord will have rebuild the earth that ought to tell you that the earth isnt perfect and is under the sin curse.

The death of animals and man arent there before the entrance of sin. I'm curious how you rectify that one with evolution. Think about this what if God saw that sin would and allowed his creation to be cursed and that he allowed the animals to die out.

If we are still evolving then we may not need Jesus as some say that we will eventually die out. Our souls may evolve as well, that is if one believes that, and whose to say that if the body evolves that the soul doesnt.

The earlier primates were they without any means of redemption ie cro magnon and homos erectus and lucy and ardi. How much intelligence and capability to do evil or good did they have. We only have bones and some glimpse of what they ate not the whole everday life of them.

 

[jasoncran]

How does satan fit in and when did the fall actually occur,and what about the flood and the verse written in the NT on those that deny it?

What about Revelation when it says that the Sun will no longer shine that Jesus himself will be the light in New Jersusalem?

No one at all (in the natural sense) has ever been born of a virgin and all men who are crucified would die and not rise up. WE accept that by faith, yet we must accept evolution? I dont get it. One could argue that Jesus was just a man and that he didnt do the miracles as there were others at the time who made the claim and had no results either. I watched a show on discovery on that. That was their claim or rather starting point.How do we accept the claims of the bible, by faith.

Where do you draw the line? Science has limits and can only look at the world arround us.
No way to prove that some are healed and raised like lazarus, dorcas and so on. No way to test that. Or the modern miracles that cant be explained.

 

[Barbarian]

that was in reference to God is outside time then why would he need to design things with the evolotion.

He could have done it any way He liked. This seems to work best.

If you know that when take one step will take you and the very path you on and the end of it. Why would you need to allow all the oppsies just make the thing able to do what it does,

As St. Thomas Aquinas noted, divine providence can work by contingency just as surely as by necessity.

btw this earth is dying and is under the curse, we are looking at the earth under the curse, not how it was orginally made, surely you believe that verse in romans 1,

I don't see that it's worse now, than it was in Paul's time. More people, but evil is still a constant, as it was then.

btw gps are known to fail and be inaccurate. I saw one do that recently.

It's possible. Depends on keeping a good signal.

I wont be evolving my water pump on my truck in a few hours, I will in a delibarate manner put it on.

Artifacts by man, are different than things created by God.

God is all knowing according to you. If he is why then make something that needs to change and be advanced, why not be completely perfect.

So why have children, who must change and advance?

The death of animals and man arent there before the entrance of sin. I'm curious how you rectify that one with evolution. Think about this what if God saw that sin would and allowed his creation to be cursed and that he allowed the animals to die out.

It's an allegory for the spiritual death God was speaking about. There weren't talking snakes with legs in those days, either.

If we are still evolving then we may not need Jesus as some say that we will eventually die out. Our souls may evolve as well, that is if one believes that, and whose to say that if the body evolves that the soul doesnt.

Our bodies are natural, but our souls are not.

The earlier primates were they without any means of redemption ie cro magnon and homos erectus and lucy and ardi.

I don't know when God chose to give two of them souls and make them different. Would it matter to you, if it was a different species than we are now?

How much intelligence and capability to do evil or good did they have. We only have bones and some glimpse of what they ate not the whole everday life of them.

We can infer a lot of behavior, but we can't see when they got a soul. Not important to me.

 

[Physicist]

Bait and switch

I wonder of Mr Cameron would like people distributing copies of the New Testament that had 50 pages of diatribe by Richard Dawkins preceding it.

However, in spite of his attempt at 'bait and switch'. I noted in the video that sensible students were ripping out the 50 pages of silly Creationist nonsense and reading "Origin of Species, an excellently written, if dated, work of scientific genius. I would recommend everyone on this forum get a copy of Darwin's work (free from Mr. Cameron) and actually read it. Of course, science has advanced considerably since Darwin so you might want to get a modern biology book as well.

Regards,

Physicist

 

[Caroline H]

I wonder of Mr Cameron would like people distributing copies of the New Testament that had 50 pages of diatribe by Richard Dawkins preceding it.

Origin of Species and the New Testament are not comparable in the least. I'm sure there are people who consider Origin of Species to be scripture, but it should not be compared to God's Holy Word. :nag

 

[jasoncran]

mr. barbarian thanks for the response i will respond with a counter later. btw gps are meant to have a certain margin of error. as they only at the most two or three satellies vs the militaries plugger(gps) 6 where i could lock a missile unto to the top of your head.The gps are mostly innacurate on military installations.

 

[lordkalvan]

I wonder of Mr Cameron would like people distributing copies of the New Testament that had 50 pages of diatribe by Richard Dawkins preceding it.

Origin of Species and the New Testament are not comparable in the least. I'm sure there are people who consider Origin of Species to be scripture, but it should not be compared to God's Holy Word.

I rather think you are missing the point. Regardless of this, however, if you are correct and 'there are people who consider Origin of Species to be scripture' (something I would doubt myself), then on the face of it Origin is entirely comparable with the New Testament.

 

[Brokendoll]

If I may, I would like to make a couple of points here myself:

If we are still evolving then we may not need Jesus as some say that we will eventually die out. Our souls may evolve as well, that is if one believes that, and whose to say that if the body evolves that the soul doesnt.

I feel somewhat that your are comparing apples and pears here. The existence of a soul is a purely faith based question since we have no way of scientifically detecting such an entity, if it exists. And science does not concern itself with things that by their very definition are impossible to detect, thing such as god, souls, etc. From a theological point of view your statement is an interesting one, but from a scientific viewpoint it is a non-starter.

Where do you draw the line? Science has limits and can only look at the world arround us.
No way to prove that some are healed and raised like lazarus, dorcas and so on. No way to test that. Or the modern miracles that cant be explained.

What modern miracles are these? I would be very interested in hearing about any miracles that cannot be explained through natural causes.

Origin of Species and the New Testament are not comparable in the least. I'm sure there are people who consider Origin of Species to be scripture, but it should not be compared to God's Holy Word. :nag

I'm going to have to agree with lordkalvan on this one. I have never met anyone who thinks of the "Origin of the Species" as scripture. Scientific texts, unlike religious scripture, are not immutable and permanent. Scientific understanding is an everchanging entity that continually works to improve itself, and thus, to think of it as scripture and dogmatic would be counterproductive in the extreme.

Also, on the point of comparing texts, while I fully respect that you think of the Bible as holy and sacred, you have to keep in mind that, even if we include the Muslims and Jews, about half the population of the world does not share your conviction in this.

 

[jasoncran]

Jesus raising from the dead. Without that the we another socail gospel doctrine. Lazarus. Dorcas, Lazarus was dead three days.

I was questioning how Mr.Barbarian as a christian put evolution in to his faith.

Just because we cant test the soul doesnt meant it dont exist. Mormonism uses that evolution of a soul as they believe that all can become Gods.

Define life? What makes us think? We do we have certain personalites? DNA doesnt explain it all.

I know a child who was comatose three days as his lungs filled with mud, after a car wreck. His parents were told that he would be a vegatable if he came out, yet he isnt. His parents prayed over him and beleived that the lord would heal other wise.


If you all you believe is the natural worlds then why help others after all is meaningless. If one does good works and knows that the earth and all life will die, then it doesnt make a difference in the long run. 100 yrs from now who will remember us, unless we do something grandiose, no one. Soon even Mother Teresa will be forgotton.The sun will in billions of yrs destroy the Earth.

I choose to believe that what is done for the Lord will last.

The problem with that thinking is that there is arch of meaningless over all things, do good works to give you meaning,but the emptiness is still there. My wife has been sucidal what do you tell her when she feels that she has nothing to live for. Bi polar isnt curable,If her kids werent alive I or no man's philosophy could give her hope, but Jesus could. He keeps me going as war makes things seem to life melancholic. I can easily think and say cest la vie to those in Haiti. This is the emptiness that I struggle with, but the Lord reminds me that there's hope and that I dont have to block out the hurt, just let him heal yme and soften my heart.

 

[Brokendoll]

I was questioning how Mr.Barbarian as a christian put evolution in to his faith.

I know. Didn't mean to barge in. ;)
Just wanted to make a few observations of my own.

Just because we cant test the soul doesnt meant it dont exist.

The point I was making was that -science- does not concern itself with things that cannot, by definition, be observed. Therefore, trying to think scientifically about the soul is pointless.

Define life? What makes us think? We do we have certain personalites? DNA doesnt explain it all.

DNA + Experience explains your personality. I'll be happy to elaborate if need be, but I'm not sure you'll like the conclusion.

I know a child who was comatose three days as his lungs filled with mud, after a car wreck. His parents were told that he would be a vegatable if he came out, yet he isnt. His parents prayed over him and beleived that the lord would heal other wise.

Medical flukes happen every day. That hardly proves that it was a miracle (unless you use the term to mean "highly unlikely event" instead of "divine intervention"). People survive because of flukes and people are killed because of flukes. Statistically it is bound to happen from time to time.

If you all you believe is the natural worlds then why help others after all is meaningless.

To quote Gandhi: "You must become the change you want to see in the world".

If one does good works and knows that the earth and all life will die, then it doesnt make a difference in the long run

Well, a lot can happen in the, oh, 15-30 billion years (at least) until the universe extinguishes itself (the Universal Cold Death is the most popular idea at the moment from what I can gather). Who knows what humanity has become in that time. Predicting what the world will look like in 1000 years is impossible, not to mention 30.000.000 times that far into the future.

100 yrs from now who will remember us, unless we do something grandiose, no one.

Meh. I'm not terribly concerned with being remembered after I'm dead. I'm just glad that people remember me now. :D Anyway, fame sounds highly overrated.

The sun will in billions of yrs destroy the Earth.

Predicting what humans have become in that time is impossible, if we're even still around then (and are we still human?). Our species might have colonized thousands of solar systems by then for all we know. If anything, I'm sad that I won't be around to see what happens. I'm sure it would be immensely interesting.

I choose to believe that what is done for the Lord will last.

That is, of course, up to you.

The problem with that thinking is that there is arch of meaningless over all things, do good works to give you meaning,but the emptiness is still there.

Oh, I don't see my life as empty at all. I find myself in a world of amazing beauty that I am lucky enough to be able to sense and explore. I get to ponder a great many mysteries and I get to share that experience with people I care about. I find my life to be very fulfilling actually.

My wife has been sucidal what do you tell her when she feels that she has nothing to live for. Bi polar isnt curable,If her kids werent alive I or no man's philosophy could give her hope, but Jesus could. He keeps me going as war makes things seem to life melancholic. I can easily think and say cest la vie to those in Haiti. This is the emptiness that I struggle with, but the Lord reminds me that there's hope and that I dont have to block out the hurt, just let him heal yme and soften my heart.

I don't want to get too personal with this, and I certainly couldn't comment on your wife. I don't even know her. So instead I'll tell you what gives me hope.

The children I teach give me hope that the next generation will be smarter and better than we are. They are eager to learn, and to accept and tolerate each other on a level we never could. The world is getting smaller and that is a good thing. They will be better educated than we are, and they will hopefully know a world less filled with absolute answers. Absolute answers kill and make people complacent. Questions, on the other hand, broaden the mind and allows for understanding. And we could use a little more of that in the years to come.

And if I in any way can contribute to that future, that is a life well spent.

 

[jasoncran]

and it will end in nothing, you said that we wont be around as a species. certainly the natural selection wont be kind to us forever. A more advanced and hostile species could kill all of us, or some disease.

That's my point what we see now isnt eternal, but temporary. One can find hope in children nothing bad. I never have expercienced that loss, but i know a woman who has lost most of her family in the less 9 yrs. Several were due to oxycotin abuse and the doc who gave then failing to stop that. Others were due to heart attacks. Her husband left her, last yr. How she continues to keep her faith is beyond me. But she still thanks the Lord for the blessings he has given her.

You may believe what you wish, but even you must admit that the grave makes all good or bad equal if theres nothing more then death. Whether one does good or bad the end is the same. Nothing. I think and i know theres more then that.
One cant escape justice given by the Lord.

 

[Brokendoll]

and it will end in nothing, you said that we wont be around as a species.

Actually I said that I don't know, but no matter. Certainly over time it is likely that, should our "bloodline" still be around millions of years from now, it will be somewhat different than we are now.

certainly the natural selection wont be kind to us forever. A more advanced and hostile species could kill all of us, or some disease.

True, or even more likely, we kill ourselves, either through war or through destroying the very environment we depend upon. As I said, I hope the next generation will be smarter...

That's my point what we see now isnt eternal, but temporary. One can find hope in children nothing bad.

I don't mind that my existence here is temporary. Atheists are sometimes accused of being selfimportant, but let me tell you right now, I have no illusions about my own importance. If I died tomorrow, less than a hundred people would really be affected. Sure, there would probably be more that would be sad for a while, pupils and their parent for instance, but -really- affected? Not many. As a wise man once said; "The graveyards are full of irreplacable people." I'm not important and neither are you. We can make a difference on a small scale for a small number of people for a short time, and that is all we have. Let's make the best of it.

You may believe what you wish, but even you must admit that the grave makes all good or bad equal if theres nothing more then death.

I think the grave makes all people dead. Beyond that, my position is still that I don't know what happens. And I'm fine with that. To quote Mark Twain: "The ten thousand years after I am dead, will bother me no more than the ten thousand years before I was born." That is more or less my position as well.

Whether one does good or bad the end is the same.

That's a very bleak view of life, isn't it? I mean, I don't believe in an afterlife, even though I am well aware that most people on this planet do, but surely, even making a small difference in the lives of some people is worth it by it self?

I think and i know theres more then that.

How do you know that? I'm not trying to put your opinion down here, but you seem completely convinced of this, so I would genuinely like to know, how can you be so sure?


Cheers

Brokendoll

 

[jasoncran]

It's called faith in what Bible says, and you either believe it or you dont, no in between. I dont have all the answers to those dificult situations where it takes some time to heal or have all the bible understood. I'm certainly not one of the apostles.

If you wish and in another forum perhaps the debate on i wil debate what faith is.

 

[Barbarian]

However, in spite of his attempt at 'bait and switch'. I noted in the video that sensible students were ripping out the 50 pages of silly Creationist nonsense and reading "Origin of Species, an excellently written, if dated, work of scientific genius.

That's what they were doing? If they were given the book then they can take do as they wish with it. I can understand why the people who went to all that trouble to print the book would be upset that it backfired, but I don't think they have much to complain about.

 

[Physicist]

However, in spite of his attempt at 'bait and switch'. I noted in the video that sensible students were ripping out the 50 pages of silly Creationist nonsense and reading "Origin of Species, an excellently written, if dated, work of scientific genius.

That's what they were doing? If they were given the book then they can take do as they wish with it. I can understand why the people who went to all that trouble to print the book would be upset that it backfired, but I don't think they have much to complain about.

Nor do I.

 

[Barbarian]

Actually, I'd like to have one intact. It might be a collector's item someday.