Legalsim....a Bad Thing ?

[Jay T]

Re: We are Under Grace And NOT Under Mosaic Law

What?? You are willing to run back into the Old Testament and pretend that those for whom Christ died are placed back under the ‘tutor’ (Galatians 3:23-25)?? ]/quote]
The Law of God does not change, just because a person becomes converted.
As long as there is sin in the world...there must be LAW...to tell us what sin is, (1 John 3:4....Romans 7:7).

Remember Romans 4:15 ?
"Where no law is, there is no transgression"
In other words, if there is no law, there is no sin.
And if there is not more sin, what need is there of a Savior ?

Paul teaches that even keeping the Sabbath (one of the ten commandments) is a mere ‘shadow’ of things to come (Colossians 2:16-17).

No, he does not....as Paul kept the 7th day sabbath, in Acts 17:2,3.
How can one of the 10 commandments be a shadow, and not the rest of the 10 commandments ?


[quote:38b42] I am very interested in knowing just how much of Mosaic Law you are willing to force on everyone else who was crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20) with lives hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3 (3)).

I'm not refering to the Mosaic law......I'm talking about the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17).

Jay T >> The Gospel, is about Jesus Christ dying to remove our past sins, and giving us the ability to not, break the Law of God again, which is called GRACE.

Paul teaches that Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to everyone who believes (Romans 10:4).

Had you looked up the Greek meaning of the word; 'end'.....
you'd have seen its real meaning....as goal, purpose, destination.
In other words, the goal of keeping the Law for Righteousness sakes, is thru believing in Jesus Christ.
REMEMBER...Righteousness, is God's commandments (Psalms 119:172).

Running back into Exodus is NOT what Paul has in mind, because we are under GRACE and not under law (Romans 6:14).

[/quote:38b42]
'Under the Law', means one is breaking the Law, (Romans 3:19).
Paul taught we (Christians) are to establish (present) the Law (Romans 3:31)

 

[Imagican]

Nice posts Teral.

I am not a Jew and was NEVER commanded to do ANYTHING by Moses. My Salvation is through 'grace' and I am to attain it through my developing relationship with the Father through His Son. As this relationship grows, the love of God will be reflected upon me, allowing me to follow His will through this love. Following the law WILL NOT create a relationship with the Father. The Jews tried this for tens of hundreds of years to NO AVAIL. If they had been able to 'work' their way back to God, Christ's ministry wouldn't have been needed.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Nice posts Teral.

I am not a Jew and was NEVER commanded to do ANYTHING by Moses.

Again, a serious 'mainstream Christian' error. Moses never commanded anything ...GOD did.

My Salvation is through 'grace' and I am to attain it through my developing relationship with the Father through His Son. As this relationship grows, the love of God will be reflected upon me, allowing me to follow His will through this love. Following the law WILL NOT create a relationship with the Father. The Jews tried this for tens of hundreds of years to NO AVAIL. If they had been able to 'work' their way back to God, Christ's ministry wouldn't have been needed.

I don't see how any 'saved' person from the Old Testament 'made it' by doing anything other than this. So, Imagican or Teral, please tell me the difference between a 'saved' OT Christian and a 'saved' NT Christian? No 'mainstrean Christian' rhetoric, please.

 

[Terral]

Hi Jay T:

Thank you for writing.

Jay T >> The Law of God does not change, just because a person becomes converted.

I disagree with everything you posted, but will not give further comment to the testimony of any Mods on this Board. You guys should be standing in the neutral corner ensuring that we have a level playing field and not using your authority against mere members. Then when someone has an opposing view, those are charges and banning offenses. I have no clue as to how you expect to “moderate†and “dictate†the direction of the thread at the same time. Maybe another Mod would like to give corrective rebuttal to your statements, because he or she is at liberty to speak freely.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

"Christian" Is A New Testament Concept

HI SputnikBoy, Imagican (mentioned):

Imagican >> Nice posts Teral. I am not a Jew and was NEVER commanded to do ANYTHING by Moses.

SputnickBoy >> Again, a serious 'mainstream Christian' error. Moses never commanded anything ...GOD did.

The Lord God told Noah to go and build and ark out of gopher wood. Genesis 6:14. Should we all head out and build arks? No. The Lord God used Moses to dispense the Law to Israel (Romans 9:1-4) and Gentiles have been ‘without the Law’ (Romans 2:14-15) from the beginning. Sending Moses with the Law for Israel did not bring the whole wide world under Mosaic Law. Christ dying for our sins and God raising Him on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) did not bring those for whom Christ died under Mosaic Law. Romans 6:14. Those of you advocating such nonsense maybe fail to realize that obeying the ‘whole Law’ (Galatians 5:3, James 2:10) is a TON OF WORK for even a Jew (Romans 2:17) and quite IMPOSSIBLE for any Gentile reading these words. Those advocating that Paul teaches that we are under Mosaic Law must break Scripture to teach that view (Colossians 2:16-17).

Imagican >> My Salvation is through 'grace' and I am to attain it through my developing relationship with the Father through His Son. As this relationship grows, the love of God will be reflected upon me, allowing me to follow His will through this love. Following the law WILL NOT create a relationship with the Father. The Jews tried this for tens of hundreds of years to NO AVAIL. If they had been able to 'work' their way back to God, Christ's ministry wouldn't have been needed.

SputnickBoy >> I don't see how any 'saved' person from the Old Testament 'made it' by doing anything other than this.

Any what? What are you trying to pass off as a ‘saved’ person from the Old Testament? Where do you see any ‘gospel’ preached for the salvation of anyone in the Old Testament? That is not even a Hebrew concept! Try to find one Hebrew term translated into “gospel.†Try to find the terms “faith†and “grace†in the save verse in the Old Testament like Paul uses in Ephesians 2:8-9 describing how we are saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works. John the Baptist cleared the way for Jesus Christ to come in the New Testament, so how can anyone place their faith in the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ in the OT? Surely you realize that those who possessed the OT Scriptures are the same ones who crucified Him??

SputnickBoy >> So, Imagican or Teral, please tell me the difference between a 'saved' OT Christian and a 'saved' NT Christian? No 'mainstrean Christian' rhetoric, please.

There is no such thing as an OT “Christian†and there is no Scripture in your words and this very brief post. John the Baptist was the son of a priest (Zacharias = Luke 1) and professed to not even recognizing Christ (John 1:33), until after the Spirit descended upon Him. How would you expect OT Israel to recognize Him apart from the testimony of the ‘messenger’ (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1) that God sent (John 1:6) to prepare His way? Do you find the term “Christian†in the OT ANYWHERE? No. How can someone be “Christ-like,†before they even know what Christ was like?

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

 

[Jay T]

Re: "Christian" Is A New Testament Concept

What are you trying to pass off as a ‘saved’ person from the Old Testament?

You think Moses was not saved....what about Elijah.....or Daniel, and many others ?
Had you looked up the words, salvation....grace....in an concordance, you'd see these word mentioned, in the OT.

Where do you see any ‘gospel’ preached for the salvation of anyone in the Old Testament?

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
QUESTION: What was the 'holy scriptures' at the time of Paul ?
Was the NT written as of yet ?

Do you find the term “Christian†in the OT ANYWHERE? No.

And, that proves what ?
That Christ was not in the OT ?

The NT tells us that Christ was the Creator of the earth......the Bible also tells us that Christ, was with Moses in the wilderness, (1 Corinthians 10:1-4).

Christ is the one who wrote the 10 commandments on Mt Sinai.

How can someone be “Christ-like,†before they even know what Christ was like?

God called some people ...perfect...in the OT.
How can anyone be perfect, without Christ in the Life ?

 

[Terral]

Hi Jay T:

Thank you for writing.

Jay T >> You think Moses was not saved....what about Elijah.....or Daniel, and many others?

While I disagree with most everything you say, I will not provide one line of commentary against the views of any Moderator or Administrator on this Board. I am happy to provide my views and interpretations on Scripture for the benefit of the other members only. Please point out any COC violations that you find in any of my posts, and I will do my best to follow your recommendations.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Jay T]

Just to clarify my position. People can obey "laws" for either of the following 2 reasons:

1. They feel a heavy, oppressive sense of obligation to follow the law. They do not understand the reasons for the laws and therefore see the law as a burden to be borne.

2. They understand that the law is the practical manifestation of love - that the law is what love works out to be in the real world. Being motivated to act lovingly themselves, they gladly obey the dictates of the law.

I am suggesting the we need to have reason #2 in our hearts and minds as we obey the law. But I see no reason why we should not continue to obey the law.

I keep the Law of God because of what Jesus Chriust said:
"IF..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15).
Since Christ wrote the 10 commandments on Mt Sinai.....it is these commandments which I try to keep as evidence of my love for Him, and what He has done for me.

 

[Drew]

I keep the Law of God because of what Jesus Chriust said:
"IF..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15).
Since Christ wrote the 10 commandments on Mt Sinai.....it is these commandments which I try to keep as evidence of my love for Him, and what He has done for me.

I would be surprised if anyone would disagree with this - is there someone out there who does?

 

[cj]

"IF..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15).
Since Christ wrote the 10 commandments on Mt Sinai.....it is these commandments which I try to keep as evidence of my love for Him, and what He has done for me.

The thing is, Jesus never said anything about "try".... It seems pretty clear He said "keep".


What you and others miss is that the connecting point between your "try" and Jesus' "keep" is simply Him (who He is and what He has done).

And He is available to everyone who believes in Him (not "trys" to keep the law).


You would like to believe you have something more that others, but you don't, for in the end there is no difference (other than you personal concept of things) between your "try" and another's try.


In love,
cj

 

[Jay T]

"IF..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15).
Since Christ wrote the 10 commandments on Mt Sinai.....it is these commandments which I try to keep as evidence of my love for Him, and what He has done for me.

The thing is, Jesus never said anything about "try".... It seems pretty clear He said "keep".


What you and others miss is that the connecting point between your "try" and Jesus' "keep" is simply Him (who He is and what He has done).

And He is available to everyone who believes in Him (not "trys" to keep the law).

Actually, when Christ says .... "Remember to keep the 7th day Holy"....that is what He means.Is it such a hard thing to do, when Jesus Christ gives grace, to obey, what He says ?