Let's talk About Heaven

[Adstar]

So Truth and Alabaster or anyone else, where do you feel "my Father`s house" is? And do you believe Jesus is preparing a literal mansion?

At the current time the place (it may or may not be completed yet) is in Heaven.

But in the future it will come out of Heaven.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[reba]

So Truth and Alabaster or anyone else, where do you feel "my Father`s house" is? And do you believe Jesus is preparing a literal mansion?

What God created for man was the Garden. I have read the 'streets of Gold' yet i know gold speak of refinment.

Just a feeling i would believe Heaven is sorta like the garden before the fall.

I dont believe John 14 is talking about bricks and mortor. Searching the words out, (Strongs dictionary) i think then tend to talk about a place in His family the comfort of knowing 'Here is where i belong"

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

G3614 The word 'house'
οἰκία
oikia
oy-kee'-ah
From G3624; properly residence (abstractly), but usually (concretely) an abode (literally or figuratively); by implication a family (especially domestics): - home, house (-hold).

G3438 "Mansion"
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

 

[Strangelove]

As far as i know the final judgement will be 1000 years later.

:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who
shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

You should consider that the '1000 years' MIGHT be what we are living in now dude.

There is a chance of deception if you have your heart set on Jesus touching down in Earthly Jerusalem and ruling there like an Earthly King would.

I just want you to stay open minded mate. The fact that Dispy's, pre-tribbers and legalists...and indeed the Pharisees all look for an Earthly Kingdom should have the alarm bells ringing.

Remember the false messiah is going to shew himself as God in the temple.

Maybe we can continue this here:

Kingdom?

 

[Adstar]

You should consider that the '1000 years' MIGHT be what we are living in now dude.

I cannot see it that way. Because all that happens before the start of the 1000 years has not happened yet.

There is a chance of deception if you have your heart set on Jesus touching down in Earthly Jerusalem and ruling there like an Earthly King would.

Remember the false messiah is going to shew himself as God in the temple.

Yes i know your fear of the belief that Jesus shall rule on earth stems from this.

I just want you to stay open minded mate. The fact that Dispy's, pre-tribbers and legalists...and indeed the Pharisees all look for an Earthly Kingdom should have the alarm bells ringing.

Well i am not a pre-tribber or a legalists. But i will keep an open mind. Indeed don't you believe the New Jeruslaem will come out of heaven down to earth? If so then you also believe in a Kingdom on earth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So Truth and Alabaster or anyone else, where do you feel "my Father`s house" is? And do you believe Jesus is preparing a literal mansion?

The house or dwelling place of the Father seems to be an obvious reference to the heavenly realm. Again, such an opportunity to habitate this realm is only promised to a few BTW. Depending on the language the translators employed, one will see that the word "mansion" is not necessarily the implication. Some say a better rendering would be to say, "in my Father's house are many rooms or dwelling places." So, no, I do not think that Jesus was necessarily preparing individual mansions, but who knows?

 

[pjt]

The house or dwelling place of the Father seems to be an obvious reference to the heavenly realm. Again, such an opportunity to habitate this realm is only promised to a few BTW. Depending on the language the translators employed, one will see that the word "mansion" is not necessarily the implication. Some say a better rendering would be to say, "in my Father's house are many rooms or dwelling places." So, no, I do not think that Jesus was necessarily preparing individual mansions, but who knows?

Ok, I`m just trying to piece together what you believe so correct me if I am wrong. From what I gather, you believe there is not a 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. You also believe there is a heaven but reserved only for a few, but not all Believers. Is that correct?

If that is correct, do you believe other believers will live on a new earth or they will just cease to exist?

Do you think it is possible these few that are admitted, are actually just the few that are truly Christians? Many will say they are Christians when they come before God but He will say "I never knew you". Or do you think they are a very special select group among the Christian body?

 

[pjt]

Jesus here was talking to his 12 and making THEM a promise much like he did in Luke 22 where he said the following:



The words of scripture should always be viewed based on the context, the speaker, his audience, and the historical setting. In the John 14 text, Jesus is taking to his 12 about a destiny he prepared for the 11 who would "stick with him through his trials."

If these mansions are just for the 11, then why did Jesus prepare "many" mansions?

 

[reba]

Joh 5:28,29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Would the the word hour not be as literal as the word thousand?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Ok, I`m just trying to piece together what you believe so correct me if I am wrong. From what I gather, you believe there is not a 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. You also believe there is a heaven but reserved only for a few, but not all Believers. Is that correct?

If that is correct, do you believe other believers will live on a new earth or they will just cease to exist?

Do you think it is possible these few that are admitted, are actually just the few that are truly Christians? Many will say they are Christians when they come before God but He will say "I never knew you". Or do you think they are a very special select group among the Christian body?

I believe that scripture tells us Jesus' reign began in the 1st century and has continued since that time and will last through the ages. I believe certain saints, specifically the martyrs mentioned in Revelation will get to reign or have reigned with Jesus for the 1000 years, presumably from Heaven, but since we are not told the "from" locale, I can't be dogmatic about it that part.
I believe that Heaven was never the intended dwelling place of mankind, (Isaiah 45:18) the Earth was and always will be, otherwise we may have been created in heaven from the beginning. Jesus made a special prevision for his friends as well as his bride (the friends may be part of the bride) to have a heavenly inheritance however. I am persuaded that this "bride" consists of the 1st century saints and apostles of Jesus and are represented in Revelation by the (rev 14:4) 144,000. (That number MAY have already been taken by Jesus BTW). I also believe that the "Great Multitude" too numerous to count respresents the people prior to Jesus as well as those after the generation of the 1st century saints who have passed through the time of judgement and have had the robes washed whose resurrection will be one of life. This is the group I believe we can hope to be a part of and we will be assured of this when we are sealed by the Spirit. I believe that the others who participate in our resurrection that do not get their robes washed will be the ones who are said to "heirs" to a resurrection of damnation.

I know it seems to be a bit "out there", but taking all of scripture into consideration from the beginning to the last book, this is what fits best to me at this point in my studies.

 

[pjt]

I also believe that the "Great Multitude" too numerous to count respresents the people prior to Jesus as well as those after the generation of the 1st century saints who have passed through the time of judgement and have had the robes washed whose resurrection will be one of life. This is the group I believe we can hope to be a part of and we will be assured of this when we are sealed by the Spirit. I believe that the others who participate in our resurrection that do not get their robes washed will be the ones who are said to "heirs" to a resurrection of damnation.

QUOTE]

So what sort of a dwelling do you think the Great Multitude has? Will it be a place of no more pain and tears, with streets of gold, or do you think it will be another place like this world where people continue sinning and repenting?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I also believe that the "Great Multitude" too numerous to count respresents the people prior to Jesus as well as those after the generation of the 1st century saints who have passed through the time of judgement and have had the robes washed whose resurrection will be one of life. This is the group I believe we can hope to be a part of and we will be assured of this when we are sealed by the Spirit. I believe that the others who participate in our resurrection that do not get their robes washed will be the ones who are said to "heirs" to a resurrection of damnation.

QUOTE]

So what sort of a dwelling do you think the Great Multitude has? Will it be a place of no more pain and tears, with streets of gold, or do you think it will be another place like this world where people continue sinning and repenting?

Scripture in (2 peter 3:13) tells us of a new sky and a new land wherein righteousness dwells as the expectation. So based on what we are told (meek inheriting the Earth, etc.), I believe the GM will dwell on the Earth, which means land. Will thta land be this same physical sphere 3 places from the sun, maybe, maybe not.

 

[pjt]

Scripture in (2 peter 3:13) tells us of a new sky and a new land wherein righteousness dwells as the expectation. So based on what we are told (meek inheriting the Earth, etc.), I believe the GM will dwell on the Earth, which means land. Will thta land be this same physical sphere 3 places from the sun, maybe, maybe not.

I see, but do you think it will be another paradise like the Garden of Eden or will it be another world like here where people are subject to sin, pain, death, and sorrow?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I see, but do you think it will be another paradise like the Garden of Eden or will it be another world like here where people are subject to sin, pain, death, and sorrow?

I see a new world with no sin, so therefore a paradise. Consider the theory that sin and evil create or should I say bring entropy into whatever system it (sin) is introduced. As long as the cancer of sin survives, the system will continue to drift further and further into disorder, pain, suffering, corruption, until finally, the system will cease to be able to live. So in this real applicable way we can see just how the wages of sin is death. This is what I feel about sin as it relates to the new heavens and new Earth, it WON'T BE THERE!
The current world is infected and dying and the only way to survive is to come out of it. The means by which we can be redeemed from the world is what I term as The Divine Gift.
Scripture teaches us not to love the world because the world and all that is in it is passing away. I see sin as a sickness and death is the mechanism used to fight off the infection. Our universe combats sin by inflicting death so that sin cannot persist endlessly. Ultimately, death is intended to kill off the sin infection and once it has accomplished that task, it too will be done away with.
For those who survive this world, we will ever be mindful of two things. One being the Divine Gift that redeemed us from the curse of sin and secondly, the reprocussions of sin. With these things etched in mind, the survivors will not participate in or give sin a chance to be reborn in the new habitation because they know the consequences.

In almost every belief system I know of whether its christianity, islam, atheism, or eastern faiths there is a common hope of an afterlife where man lives on after his physical demise and in almost each case when the man reaches completeness whether it be heaven, nirvana, or enlightenment, he exists in a realm free of the worries of a sinful world in a blissful free state.

The above paragraph is a testament to how much we all have in common no matter where we live or what be believe in. We all seem to have something in us that longs for something greater in both the world we abide in as well as ourselves. It is my contention that what stands between us the what we dream about is simply SIN. When we overcome sin we can begin to experience life in its true essence. In the afterlife, what will become of sin? I believe that only those who overcome it will be allowed to abide. All who allow sin to reign in them will by necessity have to be kept from the abode of the pure in order to keep the abode of the pure, pure. I also believe that in the ages of ages (eternity) those who I term the pure will have the capacity to sin but simply will not because of what they have learned and experienced during their time of living in a world dominated by sin and allthe calamity it brings.

 

[pjt]

I see a new world with no sin, so therefore a paradise. Consider the theory that sin and evil create or should I say bring entropy into whatever system it (sin) is introduced. As long as the cancer of sin survives, the system will continue to drift further and further into disorder, pain, suffering, corruption, until finally, the system will cease to be able to live. So in this real applicable way we can see just how the wages of sin is death. This is what I feel about sin as it relates to the new heavens and new Earth, it WON'T BE THERE!
The current world is infected and dying and the only way to survive is to come out of it. The means by which we can be redeemed from the world is what I term as The Divine Gift.
Scripture teaches us not to love the world because the world and all that is in it is passing away. I see sin as a sickness and death is the mechanism used to fight off the infection. Our universe combats sin by inflicting death so that sin cannot persist endlessly. Ultimately, death is intended to kill off the sin infection and once it has accomplished that task, it too will be done away with.
For those who survive this world, we will ever be mindful of two things. One being the Divine Gift that redeemed us from the curse of sin and secondly, the reprocussions of sin. With these things etched in mind, the survivors will not participate in or give sin a chance to be reborn in the new habitation because they know the consequences.

So you believe there will be no more sin because we will be forever mindful of God`s divine gift of redeeming us from sin as well as remembering and knowing the reprocussions of sin? So even though we are capable of sin these 2 things will keep us from sin? Am I reading you right?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So you believe there will be no more sin because we will be forever mindful of God`s divine gift of redeeming us from sin as well as remembering and knowing the reprocussions of sin? So even though we are capable of sin these 2 things will keep us from sin? Am I reading you right?

In a nutshell, yes. I see no scenario where the resurrected saved ones will NOT have free will. Those (hopefully us) individuals though having freewill will be righteous and as children of God inclined to righteousness.

 

[reba]

Seems to this girl you guys are devaluing the Cross of Christ.

 

[Drew]

I believe that scripture tells us Jesus' reign began in the 1st century and has continued since that time and will last through the ages.

I agree, and would suggest that the Biblical evidence for this view is massive.

I believe that Heaven was never the intended dwelling place of mankind, (Isaiah 45:18) the Earth was and always will be,......

I agree once more.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Seems to this girl you guys are devaluing the Cross of Christ.

That's certainly not the goal of this thread. After all, it is Jesus (who is the resurrection and the life) whose, love, sacrifice, obedience, death, and resurrection that makes eternal life possible for us in the first place.

 

[pjt]

In a nutshell, yes. I see no scenario where the resurrected saved ones will NOT have free will. Those (hopefully us) individuals though having freewill will be righteous and as children of God inclined to righteousness.

Well, the Bible does not spell it out one way or the other. But have you considered perhaps there will be no more sin because the sin nature (the ability to sin) will be completely removed from us when we get a new body and become a new being? I mean there will be no marriage so the sexual nature of humans must be removed and of course the sexual nature although it is good in design, it also has caused many to stumble in sin both inside and outside of marriage. So perhaps all sinful natures will be removed from man leaving only an ability to praise God and produce His good fruits thus we get a paradise.

I mean man has proven time and again even though we realize Jesus redeemed us and we know the consequenses of sin, we still fall to sin. So the only way to not fall to sin would be to have the sin nature removed from us. Perhaps that will mean the ability to make choices will be removed. But at least we will be happy without having to choose between good and evil.

There is a theory out there, since it is a theory I can`t say it is 100% true, but it is an idea to consider that when God made the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were going through a testing phase where the tree of Knowledge was placed before them and they were told not to eat from it. If they had passed this test after a time, they would have reached a point of glorification where sin no longer lived as a potential within them. Much like us now, we Christians are going through a process of sanctification and when we finally get our new bodies, we shall fully reach a place of glorification where our sin nature is conquered and destroyed like in Jesus now. As a human He had the potential to sin, but now there is no potential within Him.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Well, the Bible does not spell it out one way or the other. But have you considered perhaps there will be no more sin because the sin nature (the ability to sin) will be completely removed from us when we get a new body and become a new being? I mean there will be no marriage so the sexual nature of humans must be removed and of course the sexual nature although it is good in design, it also has caused many to stumble in sin both inside and outside of marriage. So perhaps all sinful natures will be removed from man leaving only an ability to praise God and produce His good fruits thus we get a paradise.

I mean man has proven time and again even though we realize Jesus redeemed us and we know the consequenses of sin, we still fall to sin. So the only way to not fall to sin would be to have the sin nature removed from us. Perhaps that will mean the ability to make choices will be removed. But at least we will be happy without having to choose between good and evil.

There is a theory out there, since it is a theory I can`t say it is 100% true, but it is an idea to consider that when God made the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were going through a testing phase where the tree of Knowledge was placed before them and they were told not to eat from it. If they had passed this test after a time, they would have reached a point of glorification where sin no longer lived as a potential within them. Much like us now, we Christians are going through a process of sanctification and when we finally get our new bodies, we shall fully reach a place of glorification where our sin nature is conquered and destroyed like in Jesus now. As a human He had the potential to sin, but now there is no potential within Him.

We are told that in the resurrection man will be as the messengers (angels), neither marrying or giving in marriage, but that DOES NOT mean we won't have the ability to sin. We are told in scripture that angels have that ability, so the theory that we will be "glorified roboti saints" really leaves a lot to be desired.

We must stop underestimating the potential we all currently have to live WITHOUT sinning. Remember, WE ARE CREATED IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD! The fact that we sin is a reflection of poor decision making NOT because we are "only human."