LGBT and Genetics

[jasoncran]

try to keep it from the gays having rights and instead focus on what is scientific cause of that behavior.

 

[lamplady]

try to keep it from the gays having rights and instead focus on what is scientific cause of that behavior.

Thank you Danus ...

k Jason, I'm calm lol ... ...

right, whether it's genetics did make me think for a long time because I couldn't match up something you're born with and God condemning it but there are conditions that are sinful in effect, eg. kleptomaniacs, compulsive liars etc, doesn't make the effects of their condition right and I'm led to believe its curable anyway.

However because God says the acts are a sin they will remain a sin no matter if it's genetical or not ... there may be reasons that God has yet to reveal to us why he'd say that ...

 

[Danus]

try to keep it from the gays having rights and instead focus on what is scientific cause of that behavior.

Is there?

Dr James Dobson did some work on this and concluded it might have something to do with one not felling confident in their sexuality.

Homosexuality has been around since the dawn of man's fall I'm sure we can agree. To me it's no more or less a sin then any other, but as Christians we might disagree.

 

[jasoncran]

Is there?

Dr James Dobson did some work on this and concluded it might have something to do with one not felling confident in their sexuality.

Homosexuality has been around since the dawn of man's fall I'm sure we can agree. To me it's no more or less a sin then any other, but as Christians we might disagree.

not imho.
from what i have read at the apa its like the same logic that is used for the pshycosis and or the alcoholics.
the later actually has a genetic factor to it.

enviromental, genes, and so on is the official stance now.

so its assumed that they are born this way yet the cause is unknown.

 

[jasoncran]

Thank you Danus ...

k Jason, I'm calm lol ... ...

right, whether it's genetics did make me think for a long time because I couldn't match up something you're born with and God condemning it but there are conditions that are sinful in effect, eg. kleptomaniacs, compulsive liars etc, doesn't make them right and I'm led to believe they're curable.

However because God says the acts are a sin they will remain a sin no matter if it's genetical or not ... there may be reasons that God has yet to reveal to us why he'd say that ...

i'm cured from this. so i know that he can do it.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Lets get one thing straight the so called battle for the lgbt and civil rights movement ARE NOT THE SAME.

They are in the fact that both groups have been subdued from being able to exercise their rights freely and the majority trying to find every loop hole possible to justify it.

Yours is a SINFUL cause,

So was the civil righst movement. Slaves should respect their masters.

my brethren across the waters was NOT!! AND I HATE HATE HATE it when people, in fact ONLY GAYS try to link the two.

Maybe if people stop treating us like sub citizesn we makeing the comparison.

I FIND IT DEEPLY OFFENSIVE but you wouldn't care about that would you - because it's 'sexy' to have the black cause lumped in your gay cause.

The civil rights movement also involved women, Hispanics, labor, and Stonewall was one of the major parts of the civil rights movement. History fail.

I find it more offensive that people ignore the 14th amendment and act like whiny five years olds palying the "Mine mine all mine" game.

No TRUE believer are against gays but we MUST preach the gospel as it it written ...

Then tell your fellow believers to stop ignoring the 14th amendment.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

i'm cured from this. so i know that he can do it.

You forgot to mention how you where bi sexual and always had feelings for the opposite gender, while you still occationaly have temptations.

 

[theLords]

I can see where this thread is quickly heading....

 

[jasoncran]

You forgot to mention how you where bi sexual and always had feelings for the opposite gender, while you still occationaly have temptations.

the devil always tempts.

lance i get the temptation but i dont have to even pray i just stop listening to the devil.
he never leaves you alone on any sin that owned any christian.

i get more from porn then i have did with that nature.

porn is far more alluring then men ever could be, yet i can resist that as well.

otherwise change for any person isnt possible . why trust a liar then after he will still be tempted to lie in certian situations and thus not really changed.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

On topic though, ( I only responded to lamp lady because what she said was extremely offensive).


I think people are missing what John was talking about.

John isn't saying conservatives think that homosexuality is genetic, but they tend to assume that all pro Gay rights people think we all assume there is something called the Gay gene.

That is what this whole thread was about from what I understand. So far people have been quick to just call us Gay and trans people the bad guys in this thread without getting the point.

 

[lamplady]

They are in the fact that both groups have been subdued from being able to exercise their rights freely and the majority trying to find every loop hole possible to justify it.

So was the civil righst movement. Slaves should respect their masters. Maybe if people stop treating us like sub citizesn we makeing the comparison.

The civil rights movement also involved women, Hispanics, labor, and Stonewall was one of the major parts of the civil rights movement. History fail.

I find it more offensive that people ignore the 14th amendment and act like whiny five years olds palying the "Mine mine all mine" game.

Then tell your fellow believers to stop ignoring the 14th amendment.

Now I find what YOU said offensive.

Even if the CRM included hispanics: yours is still a SIN. I do believe Stonewall began in '67. The CRM started way before that.

There must be other groups in the world who have had it bad, why don't I ever hear gays link themselves up with them? They do it because some people are seemingly easy targets. I'm speaking mostly about gays in Britain now because that's what they do.

And when the CRM was at its highest - no-one was a slave.

The 14th amendment ... if it has to do with gays not getting what they want, (again), - take it up with your govt. don't involve people who have nothing to do with your ilk wanting to live your sinful lives in peace.

 

[Danus]

On topic though, ( I only responded to lamp lady because what she said was extremely offensive).


I think people are missing what John was talking about.

John isn't saying conservatives think that homosexuality is genetic, but they tend to assume that all pro Gay rights people think we all assume there is something called the Gay gene.

That is what this whole thread was about from what I understand. So far people have been quick to just call us Gay and trans people the bad guys in this thread without getting the point.

Yes. After re-reading it I see that now.

I'll say this, not so long ago gay advocates (Whatever that is) where trying to say there is a "gay gene". Now they are backing away from that I guess. ???

I would not say that a large number of conservatives, or Christians, or "straight people" or whatever we are to the homosexual community, would say that gay people necessarily believe there is a "GAY gene", but The argument of being borne gay is still very prevalent.In fact it's the basses for the whole "gay rights" argument, would you not agree?

For gay people to have rights beyond the norm of what we call rights in this country (USA) they would need to bring, and back up, an argument that says their condition of homosexuality is natural, and therefor normal.

Regardless, homosexuals who embrace their homosexuality, want to normalize their homosexual behavior it seems. I'm sure others with sexual dysfunctions or proclivities beyond the norm feel the same way. Rights...what are GAY RIGHTS?

Explain that please.

As for what causes homosexuality? Who knows, but as Christians we believe this world to be fallen; To be less than perfect due to man's choice. Aloud by God, man is lost in his sin nature, and therefor needs God to get back to God you might say.

However, he has that choice. So, as a Christian, conservative, heterosexual man who believes he is no more or less a sinner than you I will only say that we might walk a similar path of freedom to choose to embrace the same salvation afforded to both of us regardless.

In that, I'm still going to teach my kids that Homosexuality is wrong. Abnormal. A product of a fallen world and man's proclivity to sin, not what God would have of us. It does not matter if it's a choice or some ingrained compulsion.

The state can address the situation as the state see's fit, but as long as the state does not tell me what I can't believe, peacefully interact or say about it, I don't have a problem with it.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Now I find what YOU said offensive.

The truth hurts.

Even if the CRM included hispanics: yours is still a SIN. I do believe Stonewall began in '67. The CRM started way before that.

The Civil rights movement lasted until the 70's and was a scattering of many different events and groups. Most people remember Back Suffrage because it was the most extreme.

There must be other groups in the world who have had it bad, why don't I ever hear gays link themselves up with them?

Its not my fault that things suck, and one of the only way to get people emphasise with ya is to point out what could happen.

They do it because some people are seemingly easy targets. I'm speaking mostly about gays in Britain now because that's what they do.

Actually I would ask you to stop telling me what "they" think since you aren't "they".

And when the CRM was at its highest - no-one was a slave.

Yah I know, I just trying to show you the "sin" argument is not a reason to deny someone rights. Its just a scare word.

The 14th amendment ... if it has to do with gays not getting what they want, (again), - take it up with your govt. don't involve people who have nothing to do with your ilk wanting to live your sinful lives in peace.

The 14th amendment guarantees that no rights, privileges, or contracts can be with held from any group, and your innocent people comment means nothing. Mainly because its people's lack of knowledge of this amendment that causes people to scream activist judge when the judge actually enforces that amendment.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Yes. After re-reading it I see that now.

I'll say this, not so long ago gay advocates (Whatever that is) where trying to say there is a "gay gene". Now they are backing away from that I guess. ???

Can you actually name any of these people? I'm not being condescending here, I'm just trying to get you to think about where you are getting your information. If you can't name the people who suposedly said this, then its possible that its nothing but an exaggeration from a detractor.

One thing I try to get people here to do, is to verify what they believe.

I would not say that a large number of conservatives, or Christians, or "straight people" or whatever we are to the homosexual community,

For most part, we call you the same as anyone else would call you.

would say that gay people necessarily believe there is a "GAY gene", but The argument of being borne gay is still very prevalent.

Its the most prevelent because the grand majority of studies done on both male and female homosexuality show that homosexuality is most likely caused by a combination of genetics and hormones in the womb. Meaning that the kid has the predespsosition to being gay when they are borne. That's about it.

In fact it's the basses for the whole "gay rights" argument, would you not agree?

No, its a massive misconception about the Gay rights movement. The movement started because we got tired of being arrested, thrown in mental homes, treated like subhuman garbage, and had our rights taken away because people are cruel and are afraid of the unknown.
The whole reason Gay activists use the genetics argument is to understand why it even happens in the first place, and to show that its not something we just choose out of the blue.

For gay people to have rights beyond the norm of what we call rights in this country (USA) they would need to bring, and back up, an argument that says their condition of homosexuality is natural, and therefor normal.

We don't want anything special. The thing is the gay and trans community is not being allowed to have access to the contracts of marriage, adoption, sometimes government housing, and even our own military. The 14th amendment say no one can be denied a contract or right from the government, which is whats happening right now.

According the 14th amendment it is a violation of everyone's rights to denie us Civil union or state marriage contracts ( this dosen't mean Churches have to )
Because Gender can not be used to discriminate against a contract.

Adoption papers because once again gender, and because all the majore studies show that homosexual parents aren't any more damaging then a straight couple.

Military, because we pay taxes for it are required to sign up for the draft. If you tax us for it, you can't withold it without a medical reason. We fought a war over this very issue.

Regardless, homosexuals who embrace their homosexuality, want to normalize their homosexual behavior it seems.

You want to know why? It has no negative effect on society, its no differn't from people who enjoy differn't hobbies or who are parts of different religions. Its really that much of a non factor. Most of this "normalization, which makes no sense because psychologically there is no real normal" has mostly been us trying to proove that we aren't evil people and we are people like everyone else.

I'm sure others with sexual dysfunctions or proclivities beyond the norm feel the same way.

And they will have to prove their case. Its no reason to deny me the same liberties that you have just because someone else would want the same. Its not my fault our country has a bill of rights guarenteeing the protection of everyone's freedoms.

Rights...what are GAY RIGHTS?

The same representation, rights, and privileges that you have and we get denied solely because of our orientation.

Explain that please.

We have this think called the constitution that says that all men and women ( no mater their religion, gender, race, creed, national heritage, and age), are all equal in this country and all deserve the same rights as each other. right now Trans, gay, and bi people are being denied Marriage contracts, Adoption contracs, service in our own military, and sometimes housing. Which violates our rights, and right now we are fighting for it to be recognized and to not be ignored.

To be honest, our fight is your fights since if they government is justified in taking my rights away, what's stopping them from taking your?

As for what causes homosexuality? Who knows, but as Christians we believe this world to be fallen; To be less than perfect due to man's choice. Aloud by God, man is lost in his sin nature, and therefor needs God to get back to God you might say.

Since we have freedom of religion in this nation, and the protection of any one religion legislating laws here, you have to have more then religous reasons to deny us gays, Bis, and Trans rights.

I've been trying to make this clear. Its cool that your religion disagrees, the problem is that our country needs more then just religious reasons to make laws. The supreme court can stop legislation that is religion based, because of our bill or rights and the equal protection clause.

However, he has that choice. So, as a Christian, conservative, heterosexual man who believes he is no more or less a sinner than you I will only say that we might walk a similar path of freedom to choose to embrace the same salvation afforded to both of us regardless.

See above.

In that, I'm still going to teach my kids that Homosexuality is wrong. Abnormal. A product of a fallen world and man's proclivity to sin, not what God would have of us. It does not matter if it's a choice or some ingrained compulsion.

And you have every right to do that, just like I have every right to challenge it.

The state can address the situation as the state see's fit, but as long as the state does not tell me what I can't believe, peacefully interact or say about it, I don't have a problem with it.

Then will you stand by me and help us by preserving the very freedom our constitution guarantees everyone?

 

[Danus]

Can you actually name any of these people? I'm not being condescending here, I'm just trying to get you to think about where you are getting your information. If you can't name the people who suposedly said this, then its possible that its nothing but an exaggeration from a detractor.

One thing I try to get people here to do, is to verify what they believe.

For most part, we call you the same as anyone else would call you.

Its the most prevelent because the grand majority of studies done on both male and female homosexuality show that homosexuality is most likely caused by a combination of genetics and hormones in the womb. Meaning that the kid has the predespsosition to being gay when they are borne. That's about it.

No, its a massive misconception about the Gay rights movement. The movement started because we got tired of being arrested, thrown in mental homes, treated like subhuman garbage, and had our rights taken away because people are cruel and are afraid of the unknown.
The whole reason Gay activists use the genetics argument is to understand why it even happens in the first place, and to show that its not something we just choose out of the blue.

We don't want anything special. The thing is the gay and trans community is not being allowed to have access to the contracts of marriage, adoption, sometimes government housing, and even our own military. The 14th amendment say no one can be denied a contract or right from the government, which is whats happening right now.

According the 14th amendment it is a violation of everyone's rights to denie us Civil union or state marriage contracts ( this dosen't mean Churches have to )
Because Gender can not be used to discriminate against a contract.

Adoption papers because once again gender, and because all the majore studies show that homosexual parents aren't any more damaging then a straight couple.

Military, because we pay taxes for it are required to sign up for the draft. If you tax us for it, you can't withold it without a medical reason. We fought a war over this very issue.

You want to know why? It has no negative effect on society, its no differn't from people who enjoy differn't hobbies or who are parts of different religions. Its really that much of a non factor. Most of this "normalization, which makes no sense because psychologically there is no real normal" has mostly been us trying to proove that we aren't evil people and we are people like everyone else.

And they will have to prove their case. Its no reason to deny me the same liberties that you have just because someone else would want the same. Its not my fault our country has a bill of rights guarenteeing the protection of everyone's freedoms.

The same representation, rights, and privileges that you have and we get denied solely because of our orientation.

We have this think called the constitution that says that all men and women ( no mater their religion, gender, race, creed, national heritage, and age), are all equal in this country and all deserve the same rights as each other. right now Trans, gay, and bi people are being denied Marriage contracts, Adoption contracs, service in our own military, and sometimes housing. Which violates our rights, and right now we are fighting for it to be recognized and to not be ignored.

To be honest, our fight is your fights since if they government is justified in taking my rights away, what's stopping them from taking your?

Since we have freedom of religion in this nation, and the protection of any one religion legislating laws here, you have to have more then religous reasons to deny us gays, Bis, and Trans rights.

I've been trying to make this clear. Its cool that your religion disagrees, the problem is that our country needs more then just religious reasons to make laws. The supreme court can stop legislation that is religion based, because of our bill or rights and the equal protection clause.

See above.

And you have every right to do that, just like I have every right to challenge it.

Then will you stand by me and help us by preserving the very freedom our constitution guarantees everyone?

Let's look at the 14th amendment. I'm thinking section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

That does not, in and of itself, afford homosexuals the same rights of marriage. However, it leaves open the issue doesn't it? Which also means that it leaves open the same for anyone else to argue they can marry a horse, or a broom stick. So the argument that this gives you the rights you describe is not totally sound. It has holes in it.

However, that's from the state in the USA. It's not from God, it's merely from man. Nore is it necessarily "Christian" so my argument about God and Christianity is not one I can bring to the state? I'm a citizen.

Frankly you have the secular support and you will continue to have that. Your bringing a secular legal argument to a moral argument and trying to make it logical to win over Christians. It's just not going to work.

Even if the laws are changed in your favor. You may gain the legal right, but it's not going to be just accepted by others. Other people, like me, I suppose, are going to make changes to as well. More people will home school, less people may join the military. Christians will turn their backs to that which we do not agree on a moral basis. Even if it's down to just a hand full.

Will I stand with you for the rights you describe? Not entirely. Not that I don't care for you. I don't have a problem with civil unions, and I don't entirely have a problem with Homosexuals adopting or serving in the military. What I do have a problem with is people like me not having the right to uphold our morality, or having our morality legalized to us for the same reasons you do not like having your morality legislated.

For example, lets say gay's can not be turned down for adoption. (By the way, I don't know the law in this area, but I know gay people adopt all the time) Let's say I run a Christian adoption group and I don't want to work with placing kids in gay homes. That should be my right as a Christian because I believe it's a life style and there is no solid evidence otherwise. What if I don't want to hire a gay person because of my moral convictions? Hum....

Your race and sexual gender are clearly aspects of your birth, and that is what our civil laws are about. No one can discriminate based on that alone, but what you do on this earth is of your moral convictions. You have a certain right to your moral convictions and I have a certain right to mine. So, when you say your fighting for my rights? not really.

I believe I have the right not to let my child be taught by an openly gay teacher. I'm sure you would find that appalling, and part of your fight for rights would be to stop people like me from putting road blocks up to keep your views away from my kids if that where the case.

Look I don't dislike you, or gay people. I have 2 gay friends. One is openly so, the other has affirmed it as his condition, but denied it as his life style. He is also becoming a catholic priest. Our laws in this country do have a moral basis and that comes from Christianity for Christians. For the secular crowd morality is how they define it. We're always going to have a problem there.

 

[Danus]

Why? What is wrong with using a picture of Miranda Cosgrove as my avatar? I adore iCarly. It's the best show on television. I feel all warm and fuzzy when I watch iCarly or anything with Cosgrove. I wish I had a little sister or a daughter (in the future). :yes



Haha... that would be a pretty silly reason. It's not like she is actually able to read this thread through the avatar. Besides, I remember her saying something on one of those late night talk shows that she is an über-fan of Glee, so I highly doubt she has a problem with homosexuality.

Your probably right. Since gay has become "fashionable" and anti gay will pretty much get you fired or ostracized from Hollywood, many people are more than willing to sell out to it for lack of convictions, but I don't know that we could say that truly about a child who may or may not understand the difference, or who to my knowledge has not endorsed.

I'm sure she does not have a problem with standing next to a communist flag either. We both know your just using it to be tasteless and try to create shock value, but that's just my opinion, which I have the right to state more so that I'm sure you have the right to steal a photo of someone off the internet and use as you see fit.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Your probably right. Since gay has become "fashionable" and anti gay will pretty much get you fired or ostracized from Hollywood, many people are more than willing to sell out to it for lack of convictions, but I don't know that we could say that truly about a child who may or may not understand the difference, or who to my knowledge has not endorsed.

First, Miranda Cosgrove is not a part of Hollywood. She stars on a children's sitcom. She is a very normal person, if you ask me. Secondly, you do realise that Cosgrove is 17, right? Lastly, you cannot say that she lacks convictions. I have a strong conviction about LGBT rights, but I am on the opposite side as you. Maybe Miranda's parents have very strong convictions that gay people are not evil, and that is why she has no problem with homosexuality.

However, I have to stop you, when you say gay is "fashionable" in Hollywood. Homosexuals are routinely mocked and ridiculed in television and film. Homosexuality is basically utilised as a joke.

I'm sure she does not have a problem with standing next to a communist flag either. We both know your just using it to be tasteless and try to create shock value, but that's just my opinion, which I have the right to state more so that I'm sure you have the right to steal a photo of someone off the internet and use as you see fit.

Since so many members on this forum are convinced I am a Communist/Marxist, I am simply using the symbolism to mess with them. Adding Miranda with the Communist flag was because of a joke Mujahid Abdullah made, about whether or not iCarly is communist propaganda being I am using Cosgrove in my avatar.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

P.S. I love how we went from discussion belief about homosexuality and genetics, to discussing Miranda Cosgrove and her views on LGBT issues.

 

[jasoncran]

personally i could care less what the hollywood stars think.

they don't live like the common man does. and havent a clue.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Let's look at the 14th amendment. I'm thinking section 1.

So you are going to ommit section 2 where it talks specifically about contracts? Intellectual dishonesty again. When you can't win, spin.

That does not, in and of itself, afford homosexuals the same rights of marriage.

No, it makes everyone equal. Meaning, you can't denie someone rights just because they are different.

However, it leaves open the issue doesn't it? Which also means that it leaves open the same for anyone else to argue they can marry a horse, or a broom stick.

No it dosen't and even if it did, that their case not mine. This is called a distraction.

So the argument that this gives you the rights you describe is not totally sound. It has holes in it.

What holes? Everyone is equal. By golly, I thought that was the entire point of the united states?

You know, where people could come and voice their opinions and views without being censored and every man and women would be on equal footing. The horror.

However, that's from the state in the USA. It's not from God, it's merely from man. Nore is it necessarily "Christian" so my argument about God and Christianity is not one I can bring to the state? I'm a citizen.

Yep you are a citizen and can bring your opinions and share them in the public square. But the government can't use your opinions or religion as its sole basis for its legislation. It is what protects you as well, so a denomination that disagrees with you, can't force you to obey their ritual laws.

Frankly you have the secular support and you will continue to have that. Your bringing a secular legal argument to a moral argument and trying to make it logical to win over Christians. It's just not going to work.

That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying to enlighten people about why secular law won't do what they want and why they can't legislate Christianity in this nation.

Even if the laws are changed in your favor. You may gain the legal right, but it's not going to be just accepted by others.

So what, I don't care. People will hate for the sake of hate, and remain ignorant for the sake of being ignorant. If someone wants to spend their life being against people, so be it.

Other people, like me, I suppose, are going to make changes to as well. More people will home school, less people may join the military. Christians will turn their backs to that which we do not agree on a moral basis. Even if it's down to just a hand full.

Cool.

Will I stand with you for the rights you describe? Not entirely. Not that I don't care for you. I don't have a problem with civil unions, and I don't entirely have a problem with Homosexuals adopting or serving in the military. What I do have a problem with is people like me not having the right to uphold our morality, or having our morality legalized to us for the same reasons you do not like having your morality legislated.

I don't understand how our nation allowing people to be free and equal shackles you in any way. How dose me being equal legally change your morality? How? This boggles me, how dose me living my life, affect your own personal liberty or morality.

For example, lets say gay's can not be turned down for adoption. (By the way, I don't know the law in this area, but I know gay people adopt all the time) Let's say I run a Christian adoption group and I don't want to work with placing kids in gay homes. That should be my right as a Christian because I believe it's a life style and there is no solid evidence otherwise. What if I don't want to hire a gay person because of my moral convictions? Hum....

If you are a private organization, then you don't have to worry about anything. It is only when you start accepting State funds will you start running into problems. Then there is also the children and how their rights play out. Because the real problem here and in most studies is not the orientation (lifestyle, which is a made up term because there is no gay lifestyle), but whether the kid is adopted at all.

Your race and sexual gender are clearly aspects of your birth, and that is what our civil laws are about. No one can discriminate based on that alone, but what you do on this earth is of your moral convictions. You have a certain right to your moral convictions and I have a certain right to mine. So, when you say your fighting for my rights? not really.

Yeah I am. I'm being denied the same privileges, rights, and contracts as you. There is no way to twist this. It really is that simple. There are some rights you get, and some rights I don't. How the heck can you spin that?

I believe I have the right not to let my child be taught by an openly gay teacher.

Yep you do.

I'm sure you would find that appalling, and part of your fight for rights would be to stop people like me from putting road blocks up to keep your views away from my kids if that where the case.

No, but nice assumption and putting words in my mouth. I'll raise a stink when people censor and hide general information form the Public as a Whole but not for individual parents. That is your choice.

Look I don't dislike you, or gay people. I have 2 gay friends.

Never said you did.

One is openly so, the other has affirmed it as his condition, but denied it as his life style.

Can you actually define this lifestyle non sense. Cause I have been to Indianapolis and Chicago, and to conventions where I've met quite a few other Gay people. I can't figure out what the heck this lifestyle thing is, especially since we don't live any different from straight people for the most part. Dose it have something to do with food or culture or something?

He is also becoming a catholic priest. Our laws in this country do have a moral basis and that comes from Christianity for Christians. For the secular crowd morality is how they define it. We're always going to have a problem there.

Cool