[_ Old Earth _] Life without God

[Asimov]

Fusion still takes at least something to start the reaction.

Yea...10 million degrees kelvin. Which is caused by cloud (nebula) density increasing, which doesn't allow radiation to escape, which increases the heat and density of the cloud even more.

There are a couple of factors as to what causes the collapse of the clouds, one of them being supernova explosions.

I'm not inserting God anywhere. I'm still a firm believer in the Bible, and that god is merely allowing man to understand a small bit of His power. You are still denying that God is apparently required at some part of the process of creation. Reactions don't just happen on their own, they need a catalyst.

Yea, and those catalysts are perfectly natural, Brutus.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Then explain to me what these catalysts are?

 

[Asimov]

Then explain to me what these catalysts are?

I did, supernova's contribute to star formation. The explosion and shockwave would cause the gas to begin swirling together, the heat caused by this would cause the gas to become more dense, and therefore trapping radiation to become hotter.

Other reasons for star formation would be that molecules of hydrogen begin clumping together due to gravity, the more massive the clump gets, the higher it's gravitational pull, and the higher it's density, and then we have more heat...and so on.

 

[Blazin Bones]

And what exactly causes these reactions to start? If it's molecules clumping together, what's causing the molecules to clump together?

 

[Asimov]

And what exactly causes these reactions to start? If it's molecules clumping together, what's causing the molecules to clump together?

Gravity.

 

[Blazin Bones]

And what causes gravity?

 

[Asimov]

And what causes gravity?

Well, if you go by what Einstein says, an object with mass affects the fabric of space/time, warping it so objects near it are attracted.

If you go by Newton, it's simply the attractive force between objects. The strength of the force is proportional to the distance.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

And what causes gravity?

Well, if you go by what Einstein says, an object with mass affects the fabric of space/time, warping it so objects near it are attracted.

If you go by Newton, it's simply the attractive force between objects. The strength of the force is proportional to the distance.

No, Newton would have said that it is an attractive force that is proportional to the mass of two objects and inversely proportional to the square of their distance. And so would Einstein. However Einstein was the first of the two to have an actual answer for what gravity actually is.

Now if you want to go on a real mindbender, ask yourself what TIME is.

 

[Asimov]

No, Newton would have said that it is an attractive force that is proportional to the mass of two objects and inversely proportional to the square of their distance. And so would Einstein. However Einstein was the first of the two to have an actual answer for what gravity actually is.

My bad! I knew it was something like that.

Now if you want to go on a real mindbender, ask yourself what TIME is.

haha!

 

[keebs]

Now if you want to go on a real mindbender, ask yourself what TIME is.

Why, it's the 4th dimension...duh! Haha, I love it when people say that. Personally, I'm not a big fan of GR. Sure, it works in most cases, but it puts gravity on a seemingly different footing from the other forces which rely on QFT.

 

[keebs]

And what exactly causes these reactions to start? If it's molecules clumping together, what's causing the molecules to clump together?

Electromagnetism, duh.

 

[Blazin Bones]

And who or what is responsible for electromagnetism?

 

[huj05]

umm, the atoms called magnetite? the fact that every atom wants each bond to have a total of 8(it might be 7 i cant remember) so they fit 4 and 4, or 2 and 6 to make 8. when there is a 2, and a 6, they try to go together.

Hopefully i am thinking of the same thing, i took chemistry last year.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Yes, but what makes this work? This is getting us nowhere. The simpler you get, the harder it become to deny the absense of a divine influence. Do you all know that the man who gave us so many of our scientific law, Issac Newton, was a Bible believing Christian? he saw these laws as a gift of knowledge from God. It's interesting to see what the denials of man has turned these laws into.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Brutus....you are playing "God of the Gaps".

If you like, I'm sure keebs or others can take a little deeper in to the electromagnetic force, the weak nuclear force, the strong nuclear force.

String theory posits some ways that these work. It goes a bit deeper than what we have touched on here, and I'm sure they would be happy to "peel the onion back" if you ask them (it is a bit beyond my humble abilities to do so well).

At some point, yes, there is a point where not everything is fully explained yet by string theory and physics. There is a current limit of our knowledge.....an onion layer that has not yet been peeled back.

Now, if you wish to ascribe "credit" for the next onion peel to God, so be it.

I feel, as do others, that we will continue to crack the base forces and equations as science grows, and that at this point there is no overriding reason to suddently credit God just because we haven't reached the next level of the onion yet.

And, if "God" is responsible for the nuclear forces, how possibly does that translate into the biblical God of Yahweh and Jesus?

Unless Genesis gives the equations for these forces, I don't see how this has anything to do with your deity.

 

[Asimov]

Yes, but what makes this work? <snip>irrelevance</snip>

Well, thinkerman is more than willing to get into electromagnetism and the reasons for these things.

I'm reminded of a joke:

An elderly woman is watching the news and she sees a report about a car driving on the wrong side. She gets worried because her husband drives along that highway, so she phones him up.

"Honey, be careful, there's someone driving on the wrong side of the highway."

"Someone?" says the man, "Everyone's doing it!"

And the moral of the story, Brutus? You are going head on into something you don't fully understand.

You can keep asking these questions "where did this come from," and "how did this start", and insert all the "why's" and "how's" you wish, and probably somewhere we'll get to a point where any one of us will say "I don't know". At this point you'll triumphantly crow "AND THAT'S WHERE GOD IS!!!"

Of course, this is nothing more than what was previously stated as the "God of the Gaps". In anything we don't know, you insert your deity there, saying "well, we don't know how this happens, so it MUST be God". And then when anyone contradicts you, you accuse them of "wishing so furiously that God doesn't exist". Really, Brutus, those arguments and accusations are so sad and tired that I'm actually disappointed you would resort to that. When you first came onto this site you seemed at least mildly interested in expanding your knowledge. Your parents must have bought you a "Creationist Handbook: 1,500 things that scientists don't know so you can strengthen your faith".

And I, of course, can turn right around and accuse you of being just as close-minded to scientific thought and mathematical theorems, but does it really get us anywhere, Brutus? If you think you need to turn off the knowledge section of your brain so you can believe in God, then that's fine. Don't post in this section then. If you have anything that is tangible against science, other than the oft-repeated "Goddidit", then please, supply us with this knowledge. We're always happy to learn, but until you provide us with knowledge rather than inane scrabblings against theories and facts, then I'm afraid I don't know what exactly you're doing in this area.

 

[keebs]

And who or what is responsible for electromagnetism?

Simple...photons.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Brutus....you are playing "God of the Gaps".

If you like, I'm sure keebs or others can take a little deeper in to the electromagnetic force, the weak nuclear force, the strong nuclear force.

String theory posits some ways that these work. It goes a bit deeper than what we have touched on here, and I'm sure they would be happy to "peel the onion back" if you ask them (it is a bit beyond my humble abilities to do so well).

At some point, yes, there is a point where not everything is fully explained yet by string theory and physics. There is a current limit of our knowledge.....an onion layer that has not yet been peeled back.

Now, if you wish to ascribe "credit" for the next onion peel to God, so be it.

I feel, as do others, that we will continue to crack the base forces and equations as science grows, and that at this point there is no overriding reason to suddently credit God just because we haven't reached the next level of the onion yet.

And, if "God" is responsible for the nuclear forces, how possibly does that translate into the biblical God of Yahweh and Jesus?

Unless Genesis gives the equations for these forces, I don't see how this has anything to do with your deity.

And we return to the final point of any Theological discussion between a theist and an atheist. Faith and pascal's wager. Choose God, and live life to His honor with eternal life as your projected future. Choose the World, and be free to be yourself, but Death will be the final option.

I don't see why we must always go through the same round abouts to get to this point, we know that this will be the result.

 

[ThinkerMan]

And we return to the final point of any Theological discussion between a theist and an atheist. Faith and pascal's wager. Choose God, and live life to His honor with eternal life as your projected future. Choose the World, and be free to be yourself, but Death will be the final option.

I don't see why we must always go through the same round abouts to get to this point, we know that this will be the result.

Brutus, this is where I see the disconnect.

If you choose to believe in Jesus and your God, based on the bible, that is fine. I certainly disagree with it, but nevertheless that is what you believe.

However, when you take Jesus and God and apply them to the electromagnetic force, or other properties of physics and universe, there is a logical disconnect.

Why is is necessary that God have his fingerprints on how the universe works?

What if, and please follow me here, within a few years science finally produces the equation of "everything", and it is completely inter-dependent, requiring no "author", in a sense.

Would that utterly destroy your faith? The facts you believe about Abraham and Jesus? Probably not. Those deities can still exist (one would think) in this universe regardless of whether or not their fingerprint is on the base properties of the universe.

When people found out how earthquakes work, does that mean that God could no longer make an earthquake happen? I would think you would say of course not.

So if we figure out exactly how the universe works, does that mean that your God can't affect that or even be responsible for it? Of course not.

So just because we aren't all the way there yet, as a culture and scientific community, why are you so quick to give God credit for having his direct fingerprints under the next layer of onion?

In short, what are you afraid of? Do you want science to stop looking? Should we pack it in?

I would think you should be extremely interested in this stuff, and embrace it.

What if we DO find God's fingerprints under the next layer of the union? What if science proves a first-cause that is clearly designed?

If God did in fact design this world, why not try and understand it to the best of your abilities?

You may believe that science is trying to prove there is no God. That is not what is happening. From your perspective, all science is trying to do is understand God's creation. You should encourage it and learn about it, regardless of whether you or I am right about the deity behind it all.

 

[Blazin Bones]

And we return to the final point of any Theological discussion between a theist and an atheist. Faith and pascal's wager. Choose God, and live life to His honor with eternal life as your projected future. Choose the World, and be free to be yourself, but Death will be the final option.

I don't see why we must always go through the same round abouts to get to this point, we know that this will be the result.

Brutus, this is where I see the disconnect.

If you choose to believe in Jesus and your God, based on the bible, that is fine. I certainly disagree with it, but nevertheless that is what you believe.

However, when you take Jesus and God and apply them to the electromagnetic force, or other properties of physics and universe, there is a logical disconnect.

Why is is necessary that God have his fingerprints on how the universe works?

What if, and please follow me here, within a few years science finally produces the equation of "everything", and it is completely inter-dependent, requiring no "author", in a sense.

Would that utterly destroy your faith? The facts you believe about Abraham and Jesus? Probably not. Those deities can still exist (one would think) in this universe regardless of whether or not their fingerprint is on the base properties of the universe.

When people found out how earthquakes work, does that mean that God could no longer make an earthquake happen? I would think you would say of course not.

So if we figure out exactly how the universe works, does that mean that your God can't affect that or even be responsible for it? Of course not.

So just because we aren't all the way there yet, as a culture and scientific community, why are you so quick to give God credit for having his direct fingerprints under the next layer of onion?

In short, what are you afraid of? Do you want science to stop looking? Should we pack it in?

I would think you should be extremely interested in this stuff, and embrace it.

What if we DO find God's fingerprints under the next layer of the union? What if science proves a first-cause that is clearly designed?

If God did in fact design this world, why not try and understand it to the best of your abilities?

You may believe that science is trying to prove there is no God. That is not what is happening. From your perspective, all science is trying to do is understand God's creation. You should encourage it and learn about it, regardless of whether you or I am right about the deity behind it all.

Thinkerman, the majority of this post was to address why God's finger print must be on creation. My simplest answer is because the Bible says so. My belief in God is not just a random figure, but the God who wrote us the Bible. I believe these words, and so God must be a part of my Reason. Without that, I deny the Authority of God, which is not something a Christian should do.