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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Literal or Allegorical
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
W
William Putnam
Guest
Scofield said:
Gee, I was the first one to vote!
God bless all,
PAX
Bill+†+
Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!
W
William Putnam
Guest
Scofield said:
Hah! How did you guess?
Let me explain that my bible scholarship is rank amateur! I clain no expertise except the seat of my pants and common sense.
For example: when Christ says "I am the door" or "I am the vine," it is obvious that it would be absurd to take this literally. The allegorical take on these sayings are obvious. On the other hand, when He says "This is my body," or "this is my blood," we encounter a problem, an ambiguity. But I would admit that the tendency to assume that this is allegory as well is quite strong, and if there were no other evidence in context somewhere in scripture, that would be my conclusion.
Speaking of context: I have often said that the further away context is taken, the more unlikely it is true context, but there are exceptions.
John Chapter 6, and the "bread of life discourse" is my obvious context, far away as it is, but it is the only place where we see Christ speak of His body and not only that, the consumption of it per the example an the discourse of the Lord's Last Supper. Not only that, verses 53 to 56 is quite emphatic about what we are to do here, eat His body and drink His blood! I think the context is obvious.
I know you will balk on me here, so I will go no further, my having brought this issue up before, but anyway, you get the idea of how I look at scripture.
Again, I am a rank amateur, and I don't know what I am doing but by the best judgment I can muster up.
Hope that explains it for you OK...
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
The majority of the apostles and disciples were not scholars or theologians, they were sheep herders, fisher men, tax collector's. I really don't worry about anyone who says they went to some theological school or whatever. Just as the Holy Spirit helped Jesus Christ apostles and disciples to understand his word, God will use his holy Spirit to help anyone to understand his word today whether we're talking about an individual or a congregation.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Hello BB1956.
This is Godly advice. Scripture also tells us if God gives someone a word for the church, they should speak to the church and the church should judge what is said, but it must align with the Bible (1Cor.14:29-33.) So for anyone who would like to comment.
As Israel travelled toward the promised land, they asked to pass through nations belonging to the Amorites. They wanted nothing from these nations, except to pass safely on their journey. They were attacked by King Sihon and defeated him by the sword and took his land. Then they were attacked by Og, King of Bashan and defeated him also and took their land.
It's a story that mirrors our own, as we head toward the land our Savior promised us, only the sword we use to defeat our enemies is the word of God.
While that always sounds nice, sounds "spiritual," it really isn't biblical. It goes without saying that the first apostles needed to be led by the Holy Spirit, as there were no NT books to study and learn from. They needed to be taught directly by the Spirit to get it right (John 14:26).
Why do you think that Paul says God has appointed teachers (1 Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11), if all we need is the Holy Spirit? Teachers are pointless if the Holy Spirit is the teacher. But we need teachers all the more today since the biblical languages haven't been used for a very long time, and it takes a lot of study to get a proper understanding, and even then there are things in dispute.
Also, we are called to live in community, and we should not be interpreting Scripture outside of that community, outside of the collective wisdom and understanding of that community. This includes everyone--teachers, scholars, theologians, and lay persons. We are to never just go about it on our own, or even with a small group, as we will very likely be deceived (take Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell, for example).
It has been my experience that those who say all we need is the Holy Spirit, are most likely to be led astray in various ways. That is simply because 1) it is an unbiblical position and 2) it is most likely feeling and emotions that are giving someone a certain understanding, not the Holy Spirit. It's like when Mormons ask a person to pray about the Book of Mormon, and God will reveal to them that it is true. They have prayed and truly believe that the BoM is true because of a feeling, often a "burning in the bosom," that they get that affirms it is true.
Not that I am not saying the Holy Spirit doesn't help us in our personal study, because he does, but his help most often comes through others--our fellow believers and the thousands and millions of others who have believed over the millennia, including the collective knowledge in the materials they have written.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Hello Free.
Paul tells us any word a church member might share must be in line with the Bible,
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 1Cor.14:32
God's Holy Spirit can teach an individual or a group of individuals (congregation), by his Holy Spirit. We have God's word the Bible which is a product of God's Holy Spirit. So God with his Holy Spirit can teach anyone the truth in scripture whether it be an individual or group of individuals (congregation) by using the scriptures. I agree that a person/persons must pray for God's Holy Spirit before reading and studying the scriptures, or doing any type of research regarding the scriptures. So I read a lot of what theologians and scholars say but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going agree with every single thing they say about every topic or doctrine. And someone telling me because a group of people went to some theological or scholarly school I must always agree with everything they say about any topic or doctrine or I'll always be wrong, as though theologians or scholars are infallible, then they can believe what they want. I'm going to think of theologians and scholars as imperfect human beings like everyone else. They have the right to choose how they believe, express that belief, go to schools, I'm certainly not going to hold that against them when that's the way it should be, but that doesn't necessarily mean I have to agree with them and everything they say, concerning any topic or doctrine and it doesn't necessarily mean I'm absolutely wrong or in error for disagreeing with them. If someone doesn't like that I disagreed with certain theologians or scholars, that's their right, but it isn't going to change the fact that I disagree with them. Whether or not a person is going to take scripture as literal or allegorical is going to be decided by individuals so there will always be disagreements as how you should take scripture. It's people right to disagree and it shouldn't be our place to try to force anyone to agree with us. If someone disagrees we should just agree to disagree.
Those who have the gift of prophecy, yes, but that is a different gift than teaching.
Robert Pate
Member
The key to understanding the Bible is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you don't understand what God has accomplished in Jesus Christ, you won't understand the Bible, Example. What does it mean when Paul said, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself?" 2 Corinthians 5:19. The Bible is a spiritual book. If you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, you will not understand it. Those that are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit interpret everything literally or physically.
The Holy Spirit can and does do that, in a sense, but not everyone can teach (1 Cor 12:28-29; Eph 4:11; Heb 5:12). In fact, relatively few should teach (James 3:1). Certainly those who are not properly taught in Scripture nor new believers should teach, unless there is a very clear call from God to do so.
What I am against is the idea that the Holy Spirit will automatically give us understanding as we read the Bible. As I pointed out, the cults of Mormonism and JWs started out this way. Many people on this forum in the past have claimed that we only need to pray and the Holy Spirit will give understanding, to the point that they rejected all commentaries, etc. Yet, they all disagreed with one another on various points. Clearly then, since they cannot all have been brought to contradicting understandings by the Holy Spirit, there is more going on.
And I am not suggesting that we simply believe everything every teacher, scholar, and theologian says. But what they say must be taken into account, tested, and weighed.
This isn't biblical either, depending on the issue. If it is regarding a core doctrine of Christianity, then, no, we should never agree to disagree. That is a compromise with truth, which can have eternal consequences.
Amen.
The empirical observation shows that there is vast amount of disagreement. We conclude that the Spirit is NOT leading to truth at all times.
I think 99% of the Spirit's leading is found in the words of the Bible. Now, can people interpret truth from the Bible; only with difficulty:
- There's the issue that the Spirit does not lead most people (Corinthians 2:14)
- There's the statement that God supplies teachers which implies a superior source for interpretation
- There's the verses saying God hardens heard and blinds people from the truth (Joshua 11:20; Deuteronomy 2:30; Isaiah 63:17; Matthew 11:25; John 12:40; Romans 9:18; etc. etc.
- There's parables written to confuse some (Matthew 13:10-11)
- The foolishness of the Gospel to confuse (1 Cor. 1:21)
- God's ways are not our ways
- Anthropomorphisms
"What is truth"
Sola Scriptura
Good Luck
Exactly. Having prayed for guidance and understanding, we read the Bible. Yet, God expects us to search and study deeply, wrestling with things, sometimes for a long time. After we think we have an understanding, we then to also take into consideration what others have come to understand about a given verse or passage, weighing and testing those things, and using our God-given reason to determine if another understanding is better and more likely.
Totally agree ... unfortunately, we still often get it wrong; some to a much greater extent than others.
Mormons, R.C.s, protestants, JWs ... got to be a lot of people doing as you and I agree to as a 'best methodology' ... and yet so many are off ... probably off the 'narrow way and few that find it'
For it is written and forever remains written,
19 “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise [the philosophy of the philosophers],
And the cleverness of the clever [who do not know Me] I will nullify.”
20 Where is the wise man (philosopher)? Where is the scribe (scholar)? Where is the debater (logician, orator) of this age? Has God not exposed the foolishness of this world’s wisdom? 21 For since the world through all its [earthly] wisdom failed to recognize God, God in His wisdom was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached [regarding salvation] to save those who believe [in Christ and welcome Him as Savior].
Got to wonder ... how many are secure in their beliefs and yet will hear .. .'depart from me I never knew you' ...
journeymanisnothing
Member
Well, in that Corinthian passage, Paul what the OT says about it. Otherwise, there would be no source to verify it.
That's why there's different scenarios about the "end times." People don't understand what the OT says about it.
I don't understand what your point is.