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Local Flood Theory Calls God An Oath Breaker!

No chronology of the Bible, for the most part. Though as I said, chronology as a whole fluctuates between hundreds of years. Not sure how I sound like I am making things up, most of the stuff on Egypt came from WSU's Egypt department. The Bible dates came from a Bible timeline, not sure the name but you can type in Bible timeline and it is the first link. The stuff about Exodus is also not made up. Go look at the thread in the science section for that.
 
How do you know this? Do you have information about it?



The Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, yet God sustained them with manna everyday, and did not allow their clothes to deteriorate... You're talking about the God who made this universe, I believe he can sustain an ark full of animals for a year...



Once again, it comes down to the interpretation of the evidence. But you don't agree with the interpretation of the many scientists who interpret the evidence as being the result of a global flood, so... :shrug But it doesn't make you right just because you believe it can't be so.

Let me quote (source at the end of the quote.)

The longest well-documented wooden ship ever built, the Wyoming, in 1909, had an unladen mass of 4000 tons: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_(ship). Her hull was only about 2/3 as long as the ark and only about half as wide. So, multiplying the Wyoming's mass by 1.5 squared (2.25) for the thicker timbers and planks, and by 3 for the difference in size, the ark should mass nearly 7 times Wyoming's (she had 90 diagonal iron braces on each side, yet she "worked" so much she foundered). Allowing for additional wood to replace the much stronger and more rigid iron we can presume that the ark would have an unladen mass somewhere near 30,000 tons, equivalent to 937,500 cubic feet of seawater, about 3/5 of the total volume of 1,518,750 cubic feet (per Oelrich) submerged, leaving a maximum capacity of 581,250 cubic feet (at best, the equivalent of two 33,750 square-foot decks of the ark) for all purposes. I served in an aircraft carrier for some years: she had about 1.7 million square feet of deck space (about 50 times the deck space of the ark) yet could barely accommodate 6,000 men, and that only because we had replenishments of food about every two weeks and made our own water.

You can make a very sturdy small rowboat out of a couple sheets of plywood and a few 1X1s, but you cannot readily scale it up because the larger vessel requires many pieces that cannot span the lengths involved. So, you must use thousands of pieces that will "work" against one another, engendering leaks. Anybody who's worked on wooden boats will tell you that you can't just seal their seams with pitch but must painstakingly caulk (drive pitch-soaked yarn into) every external seam; they'll also tell you that joining the pieces of wood together takes skill and (in the Bronze Age rare and very expensive) metal fasteners, at least for non-trivial vessels. Consider that Wyoming foundered because the crew (larger than Noah's) couldn't keep up with the leaks, despite reportedly having steam-driven pumps. Consider that Wyoming's yellow pine is much stronger than acacia or any other readily-available wood in the Middle East. Even the fabled cedars of Lebanon are structurally poor compared to yellow pine. I discovered today that the NIV says it was cypress but admits that the meaning of the Hebrew word is uncertain. The same problem obtains for cypress. Then multiply Wyoming's 6-inch planking and the underlying structure by a factor to allow for the weakness of local woods, considering that the local woods would have to be doubled and redoubled, making the interior capacity somewhat smaller than the gross, presumably external, measurements of the ark. Consider also that the ark would also have a shape making broaching unavoidable in even moderate seas. Wyoming could carry only 6720 tons of coal, but coal weighs about 88 pounds/cubic foot, about 1.4 times as dense as animals and a whole lot less trouble to carry. That means Wyoming's bunkers held a volume of just over 157,000 cubic feet. Assuming that the ark could carry any load at all, it would need cargo room at many times (see next paragraph) the volume of Wyoming's coal bunkers, not likely considering the inadequate volume before adding timbers required to provide even a modicum of structural stability.

Finally, consider that Noah would have to feed and water his family and charges for 11-1/2 months per Genesis 8, and consider all other objections, such as food for carnivores after the flood receded (and where, pray, did it recede to?). Then consider that Australia has many animals known only on that island continent and no way to feed many of them on either end of the voyage, similarly for the Americas and for tens of thousands of islands. Consider the number of genera carried, 1033 terrestrial and semi-aquatic mammals alone (genera approximately = kinds in Genesis, since Noah carried both ravens and doves, and I'm being generous in assuming with the creationists that kinds don't evolve). Consider that mammalian genera are relatively rare compared to the genera of reptiles, insects, terrestrial and aerial arthropods, birds, terrestrial worms, the many hundreds or thousands of parasites that infest all these animals (did you know that a dung beetle can harbor a veritable army of mites?), and so on. Consider that some insects, such as cicadas, must spend many years underground. Consider that most terrestrial plants cannot survive a year's inundation in seawater. Consider also that animals can't be kept in extremely close confinement, typically needing about 6-8 times their actual volume for space (think dog crate). Consider the time required to feed and clean up after all those animals. As somebody who worked on farms as a kid, I can unequivocally state it couldn't be done.

Source(About the 3rd comment down from the main article.)
 
all i ask that you post the ot words for that so we can look at the original language used by the writers.

and i agree with that stament.

Gen 8:21

ובל-לא הוהי רמאיו חחינה חיר-תא הוהי חריו אכ
יכ םדאה רובעב המדאה-תא דוע ללקל ףסא-אל
תוכהל דוע ףסא-אלו וירענמ ער םדאה בל רצי
:יתישע רשאכ יח-לכ-תא
 
Let me quote (source at the end of the quote.)



Source(About the 3rd comment down from the main article.)

Greetings, maybe the book "Biblical Flood and Ice Epoch" will help you consider the facts in a different light. I liked it. Of course I read it when it first came out, back in the late 60's; there have been many advances in knowledge since then but the ideas are timeless, no?

I highly recommend this work to any who are actually interested in the subject.

The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch by Donald W. Patten, Copyright © 1966 by Pacific Meridian Publishing Company, Seattle, WA. USA.

CHAPTER LIST
  1. : A Global Flood or a Local Flood

    [*]: The History of Catastrophism and Uniformitarianism

    [*]: Past Celestial Catastrophies

    [*]: The Tidal Nature of the Biblical Flood

    [*]: Orogenesis: The Cause of Global Mountain Uplifts

    [*]: Glaciogenesis: The Cause of the Ice Epoch

    [*]: Model of the Flood Catastrophe

    [*]: Astral Catastrophism In Ancient Literature

    [*]: The Greenhouse Effect: The Antediluvian Canopy

    [*]: Biological Uniformitarianism (Darwinism)

    [*]: Cosmogony and Uniformitarianism

    [*]: Catastrophism, Uniformitarianism and Western Civilization
_______________________________________________________
About the Author:
DONALD W. PATTEN, a geographer by training and lifelong interest, was born on November 11, 1929, in Conrad, a small town on the high plains of Montana near Glacier National Park. He entered the University of Montana in 1947 and engaged upon a series of studies including ancient history, ancient literature, climatology, genetics, geography, geomorphology, mathematics and philosophy.

While absorbing humanistic viewpoints, he also began to read the Bible, and to reflect upon its claims. In 1948, he experienced conversion to Biblical Christianity, and through a coincidence, was given pulpit duties as a student at a small, rural community church in the village of Lolo. Following his conversion, this further experience in lay preaching and teaching was a most profound influence in his young manhood, coming in the midst of his studies.

Mr. Patten received a B.A, in Geography from the University of Washington in 1951, and an M.A. in Geography in 1962. Mr. Patten and his wife Lorraine have one daughter and six sons.

THE BIBLICAL FLOOD AND ICE EPOCH was conceived in 1960, and has been generated by his interests in various fields of geography, history and science. Although the doctrine of uniformitarianism had been continuously proposed and systematically promoted during his collegiate days, it was, as he puts it, "not gullibly received," due partly to his observations of the recent ruggedness, and the wave-like alignment of the ridges and ranges of the Bitterroots, the Cabinets, the Kootenais, the Cascades with their glaciation and volcanism, the Rockies with their magnificent sawtooth faces, and even such isolated examples as the Sweetgrass Hills and the Knees out on the Great Plains, all of which were too familiar.
 
:backtotopic

The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

I like the original post. There is a "smell" of Jewish thinking there. Almost like he is saying, "What?? What is dis??" - "Can we have it both ways, it is farblondzhet! Local -AND- Global?"

Certainly we can agree that the flood referred to in the Holy Scriptures is either localized or it isn't. If we insist that the flood (as described in the Bible) is local only, it renders the promise of God to make no sense whatsoever or makes Him to be a liar.

... and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done... << ------- This "as I have done" and "every living thing" is probably what Jason wanted when he asked for the Hebrew. Myself and others have posted this but the meaning can be found by following the links below (click the Hebrew rendition) :

"Neither will I again" : יסף yacaph
"Smite" : נכה nakah
"any more every living thing" : חי chay
"as I have done" : עשה `asah
 
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Glenn Morton's story


Why I left Young-earth Creationism

by Glenn R. Morton
Copyright 2000 by Glenn R. Morton. This may be freely distributed so long as no changes are made to the text and no charges are made to the reader.


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Glenn Morton's story


This was where I first became exposed to the problems geology presented to the idea of a global flood. I would see extremely thick (30,000 feet) sedimentary layers. One could follow these beds from the surface down to those depths where they were covered by vast thicknesses of sediment. I would see buried mountains which had experienced thousands of feet of erosion, which required time. Yet the sediments in those mountains had to have been deposited by the flood, if it was true. I would see faults that were active early but not late and faults that were active late but not early. I would see karsts and sinkholes (limestone erosion) which occurred during the middle of the sedimentary column (supposedly during the middle of the flood) yet the flood waters would have been saturated in limestone and incapable of dissolving lime. It became clear that more time was needed than the global flood would allow.(See The Society of Exploration Geophysicists for an article showing an example of a deeply buried karst. For a better but bigger (3.4 meg) version of that paper see http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/proceedings/97/97ng/ng97_pdf/NG4-1.PDF
One also finds erosional canyons buried in the earth. These canyons would require time to excavate, just like the time it takes to erode the Grand Canyon. This picture was downloaded from a site which is now gone from the web. It was http://ic.ucsc.edu/~casey/eart168/3DInterpretation/Deltain3d1.gif
Deltain3d1.gif

I worked hard over the next few years to solve these problems. I published 20+ items in the Creation Research Society Quarterly. I would listen to ICR, have discussions with people like Slusher, Gish, Austin, Barnes and also discuss things with some of their graduates that I had hired.
In order to get closer to the data and know it better, with the hope of finding a solution, I changed subdivisions of my work in 1980. I left seismic processing and went into seismic interpretation where I would have to deal with more geologic data. My horror at what I was seeing only increased. There was a major problem; the data I was seeing at work, was not agreeing with what I had been taught as a Christian. Doubts about what I was writing and teaching began to grow. Unfortunately, my fellow young earth creationists were not willing to listen to the problems. No one could give me a model which allowed me to unite into one cloth what I believed on Sunday and what I was forced to believe by the data Monday through Friday. I was living the life of a double-minded man--believing two things.
By 1986, the growing doubts about the ability of the widely accepted creationist viewpoints to explain the geologic data led to
a nearly 10 year withdrawal from publication. My last young-earth paper was entitled Geologic Challenges to a Young-earth, which I presented as the first paper in the First International Conference on Creationism. It was not well received. Young-earth creationists don't like being told they are wrong. The reaction to the pictures, seismic data, the logic disgusted me. They were more interested in what I sounded like than in the data!
John Morris came to the stage to challenge me. He claimed to have been in the oil industry. I asked him what oil company he had worked for. I am going to let an account of this published in the Skeptical Inquirer in late 86 or early 87. It was written by Robert Schadewald. He writes,
"John Morris went to the microphone and identified himself as a petroleum geologist. He questioned Morton's claim that pollen grains are found in salt formations, and accused Morton of sounding like an anticreationist, raising more problems than his critics could respond to in the time available. Morris said that the ICR staff is working on these problems all the time. He told Morton to quit raising problems and start solving them. "Morton chopped him off at the ankles. Two questions, said Morton: 'What oil company did you work for?' Well, uh, actually Morris never worked for an oil company,



..Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true.



...I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.
"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"
That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either.

References
For an example of a seismic karst during the middle of the geologic column go to
The Society of Exploration Geophysicists
Select 'publications' from that page
Select 'Geoarchives'
Select '1996'
Select 'September and October'
Select 'pdf' from 3-D seismic reflection tomography on top of the GOCAD depth modeler
Jean Luc Guiziou, Jean Laurent Mallet and Raül Madariaga
Scroll down to page 6-8 on the acrobat reader. These are pages 1341-1343 of the original journal.
There you will see 3d seismic data that shows evidence of a subaerial erosional event supposedly in the middle of a world wide flood!
For those who want to go to the library it is Vol. 61, No. 5
September-October 1996 Geophysics.
 
History of the Collapse of Flood Geology and a Young Earth
...
Conclusion
As we have seen, the idea of a universal deluge was the settled interpretation of the church for nearly seventeen centuries, but that changed as a body of compelling evidence undercutting that interpretation gradually accumulated. The cumulative pressure of general revelation can be ignored only so long. Christians must always be ready to reexamine even settled interpretations when a wealth of external data call these interpretations into question. God may be trying to tell us something!
This case study of the flood suggests the need for more humility and less dogmatism in interpretation. The arrogant attitude displayed by some commentators who have lacked appropriate scientific knowledge, especially in this century, is appalling. Christians must also be cautious in using extrabiblical data for apologetic purposes, since their data may eventually be supplanted by better information that demands a different interpretation. There is danger in basing an apologetic for our interpretations on a presumed agreement of the Bible with science.
The church is too often overly cautious and reactionary in handling extrabiblical information and desperately needs to develop an attitude and a hermeneutic that eagerly embrace the discoveries that are made in God's world.
In response to the growing body of evidence regarding the flood, many Christian scholars seem to have waited until the last possible moment to accept the idea of a local flood. Indeed, a large segment of the evangelical church still seeks to support a belief in a global flood by resisting, distorting, or misinterpreting relevant extrabiblical evidence. It is, of course, easy to find fault in hindsight. And as the church has been singed from time to time by overeager scholars who have rushed to construct the most tenuous hypotheses on the slenderest threads of evidence, some caution is understandable. It is also understandable that long-held traditional ways of interpreting the Bible may easily become equated with what God is actually saying, and, of course, the church is reluctant to part with what it thinks God is saying! And yet many Christians have come to dread all scientific evaluations of the created world because they perceive in them a threat to the authority of the Bible and the certainty of personal salvation.
A large segment of the evangelical church has unfortunately locked itself into a biblical hermeneutic that requires a global flood and a recent six-day creation and that prevents it from dealing responsibly with God's creative work. I submit that there is something inherently flawed in any hermeneutic that prevents us from reading God's handiwork properly and that repeatedly puts us at odds with the established conclusions of a scientific community that is composed not just of opponents of Christianity but also of confessing Christians.
Some Christians delight in contrasting the infallible Word of God (that is to say, the Word of God infallibly interpreted by them) with the fallible ideas of sinful human beings and on that basis reject scientific conclusions they do not like. Scripture does oppose purely human philosophies, human pride, and human sin. But does the Bible oppose everything human? Science is a human endeavor that requires the input of fallible humans, but that hardly means that it is anti-Christian, and it certainly does not prevent Christians from accepting and using the results of science. Even the most doctrinaire advocates of a literal reading of Genesis 1-11 are selective in their objections to the findings of the scientific community.
How many of them deny that the earth orbits the sun rather than the other way around, for example? How many object to the science that made high-tech electronics, manned missions to the moon, or modern drugs possible? When so many scientists of such a diverse array of worldviews are able to achieve a virtual consensus regarding a given body of evidence, we had better pay attention. When for the past two centuries thousands of geologists from around the world, including numerous Bible-believing Christians, insist from a lifetime of experience in looking at fossiliferous rocks that those rocks are extremely old and had nothing to do with a global deluge, then the church must listen. Commentators who dismiss or disparage that body of geological knowledge solely on the grounds of their commitment to a principle of interpretation might do well to question their commitment to truth in a larger sense. Is it likely that they will arrive at a sound understanding of what God is saying in the biblical text if they reject a sound understanding of what God is saying in the created order? The extrabiblical data pertaining to the flood have been pushing the evangelical church to develop a better approach to the flood story and indeed to all the early chapters of Genesis.
Just what are those extrabiblical data? In summary, several centuries of effort to locate physical remnants of the biblical deluge have completely failed. Any physical evidence that has been claimed to support a global flood has eventually been demonstrated to have a different explanation. The idea that the flood deposited the world's stratified rocks has been thoroughly discredited by numerous lines of evidence. Many of the individual strata give evidence of having been deposited in such non-flood environments as rivers, beaches, deltas, lakes, glaciers, deserts, and shallow oceanic platforms. Many strata, such as lake deposits and fossil reefs, contain abundant indicators of very slow deposition under environmentally sensitive conditions quite incompatible with a catastrophic deluge. Many strata are overlain by fossil soils and separated from higher strata by erosional breaks that could only have been produced over extensive lengths of time. The fossils themselves are arrayed in progressive order in the geologic column. Many of the organisms lived in environments utterly unlike flooded terrains. Radiometric dating of volcanic ash or lava flows interbedded with fossiliferous strata show that they are millions of years old. Some large masses of igneous rocks injected into the strata took hundreds of thousands of years to cool and crystallize. Many fossiliferous rocks have been metamorphosed, indicating extreme burial that could not possibly have occurred during a year-long deluge.
All the evidence of the rocks tells us that they were not produced or arranged by a flood. The views of earth history offered by Woodward, Catcott, G.M. Price, Whitcomb and Morris, and John R. Rice are simply and obviously incorrect.
The evidence is also arrayed against views that confine the action of the flood to the globe's surface features. Most of the gravels, sands, boulders, smoothed U-shaped valleys, and surface grooves and scratches have been amply demonstrated to be the result of continental ice sheets rather than a flood. We now know that the frozen mammoths and their friends did not perish in a major catastrophe only a few thousand years ago involving a radical climatic change. These animals were well adapted to life on the harsh tundra and died individually over a period of thousands of years in accidents that were catastrophic only to them. The rubble-drift deposits of southern England and the Mediterranean (and scarcely evident at all in the Middle East) are most likely the result of downslope soil movements during the ice age. The views of the deluge propounded by Buckland, Sedgwick, Prestwich, and Wright are also incorrect.
In addition to the wealth of geological evidence opposing the possibility of a global deluge, a variety of biogeographical evidence also counts conclusively against such an event. For one thing, there is no evidence whatsoever to indicate that human or animal populations were ever disrupted by a catastrophic global flood at any point in the past. Indeed, all the evidence indicates continuous occupation by these populations of points around the globe into the exceedingly distant past. Human beings have been in North America for at least twelve thousand years and in Australia for at least thirty or forty thousand years, long before the biblical deluge could have occurred by any consistent reading of the textual evidence of the Bible.
Furthermore, a literal reading of the flood narrative requires us to presume that representatives of tens of thousands of different species left their natural habitats and restricted supplies of food, made their way from all the distant and isolated parts of the globe, crossing oceans, arctic wastes, and any number of hostile environments to arrive at the ark, that these vast numbers of creatures somehow all boarded the craft, which (presumably) already held enough food to sustain them for a year, and then after the retreat of the floodwaters all made the journey back to their respective habitats to replenish the earth.
 
Hey - this isn't the Science section. If ya wanna debate science (and I can understand that desire) - just post the link - don't copy-pasta the whole thing. This thread is about my Father.
 
CL,

You are really awesome at copying and pasting...


:backtotopic

Thanks Sparrow, I had not realized HOW derailed this thread had become. Please, back to the topic I began. No one has answered my initial post.
 
I know the articles are a long, but they are on topic as well geologists correctly point the the fact there is no evidence for a flood. These wold flood geologists didn't get their degrees from accredited universities but just degree mills. They only work for each other, and get paid by telling the literalists what they want to hear not by doing anything of actual substance.
 
I know the articles are a long, but they are on topic

Wanna borrow my glasses? The topic is a theological one, not a scientific one. If you do not believe int he flood, which you do not, go away and let the people who do discuss it.

Would a mod. mind closing this and cleaning it up to reflect the original OP?
 
Wanna borrow my glasses? The topic is a theological one, not a scientific one. If you do not believe int he flood, which you do not, go away and let the people who do discuss it.

Would a mod. mind closing this and cleaning it up to reflect the original OP?


The topic is does a local flood call god a lair.. How can one argue in a local flood with out showing a global flood to be false? Also, by showing the local flood theory the only logical conclusion that deal with whether or not local flood believers think God is a liar. If the local flood theory is obviously true then one has to wonder if reality its self is calling God a liar.

Did you just want a thread where global flood believers are only allowed, and the purpose is for everyone to pat each other on the back and bash everyone who doesn't believe in a global flood by saying they are calling God a liar?
 
No, I wanted people who actually believe the Bible is God's Word to have a theological discussion on local floods and I wanted to know how local flood people would view that passage.
 
No, I wanted people who actually believe the Bible is God's Word to have a theological discussion on local floods and I wanted to know how local flood people would view that passage.


Well there are a couple possibilities. The most likely is that the writer of the passage didn't understand what God wanted him to write. That the passage isn't a literal quote of God.
 
And you somehow have the grand authority to declare what is true and what is not and also what is God's Word and what is not? Just because your precious science says so it doesn't make it true.

Christ's resurrection is not something science concurs with, you want to dispute that this happened?

Christ's ascent is not something science concurs with, you want to dispute that also?

Christ's miracles don't concur with science, you want to dispute that?
 
And you somehow have the grand authority to declare what is true and what is not and also what is God's Word and what is not? Just because your precious science says so it doesn't make it true.

Yes if science presents overwhelming evidence that there was no world wide flood then it is silly to believe otherwise. Also, you say some things are poetry and some things aren't you seem to waver back and forth on that subject.

Anyway, if a global flood 4000 years ago is impossible, and the writer or writers of Genesis say God said it was a global flood then the writer was not directly quoting God.

These things just need to be thought about logically. We are all capable of that. No global flood as that is impossible. So genesis is not literal.
 
Here is some logic for you. Science is the work of humans. Humans make errors. God makes no errors. God wrote the Bible.

And like I have said and will continue to say, learn Hebrew. Hebrew is a complex language and has different inflections and these inflections say if it meant to be poetry or not.
 
Here is some logic for you. Science is the work of humans. Humans make errors. God makes no errors. God wrote the Bible.

And like I have said and will continue to say, learn Hebrew. Hebrew is a complex language and has different inflections and these inflections say if it meant to be poetry or not.


Yes humans make errors. God did not dictate the bible. The bible is inspired not literal. Humans wrote the bible.
 
Yes humans make errors. God did not dictate the bible. The bible is inspired not literal. Humans wrote the bible.

then why even believe anything written about the Jesus? which is the the truth about him?

Do you even believe in any God? or the god of reason.
 
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