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sourberry said:
I do not think that Paul, or those that joined him in fellowship would carry a set of books saying - "hey, what we preach is in these books, and you need to check that all what we are preaching is in these books" (synagogue is a special case, when Paul would use Moses books). There were no books, as I think, but there was living water running out of the belly, this is how Gentiles were preached. You see? The doctrine of Bible came later, as I think.
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"After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea." (Colossians 4:15 NIV)

"I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers and sisters." (1 Thessalonians 5:17 NIV)
 
sourberry said:
I agree.

I also think that Jewish background may have had so many doctrines, that Paul would need to go through some process of reconciliation to gain and save some Jews.

The last thing Paul would allow is for the teachings and doctrines to separate the church, as I think.
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Maybe he would also have put it the other way around: truth and doctrine are what, in love, unites the local church in the Person of Christ.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
"15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thessalonians 2:15 NIV)

14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer." (2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 NIV)

Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians. Paul insists that we maintain denominational separation from those who do not obey his teachings in his written letters.
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Yes, the church needs to be pure.

You cannot tolerate disrespect neither to the sacrifice of Jesus, nor to Holly Father or His Spirit.

However, it is not separation by doctrines, but separation by the spirits of evil, as I think, whom Jesus commanded to fight. And it is not even separation, but the fight itself, as I think.
 
sourberry said:
Yes, the church needs to be pure.

You cannot tolerate disrespect neither to the sacrifice of Jesus, nor to Holly Father or His Spirit.

However, it is not separation by doctrines, but separation by the spirits of evil, as I think, whom Jesus commanded to fight. And it is not even separation, but the fight itself, as I think.
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I think we may not be on the same page as to what doctrine is. It's what is declared to be true. And in Christ, it's truth that unites.
 
farouk said:
Maybe he would also have put it the other way around: truth and doctrine are what, in love, unites the local church in the Person of Christ.
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Yes, you can put it that way too, as I think. Some people find it easier to follow doctrines and teachings. As I say, if doctrines and teachings help you in your path, then they are not evil.

Teaching and doctrine separate the church only if you allow them separating the church, as I think.
 
farouk said:
I think we may not be on the same page as to what doctrine is. It's what is declared to be true. And in Christ, it's truth that unites.
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So doctrine is a declaration.

What Paul is trying to do, in my opinion, is not to declare but to convey to your heart. He is knocking. What we read may look like a declaration. You see?
 
sourberry said:
Yes, the church needs to be pure.

You cannot tolerate disrespect neither to the sacrifice of Jesus, nor to Holly Father or His Spirit.

However, it is not separation by doctrines, but separation by the spirits of evil, as I think, whom Jesus commanded to fight. And it is not even separation, but the fight itself, as I think.
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How do you determine good and evil if not by doctrine.

Even Paul says to use what he has written and said, that is, his doctrine, to initiate separation. So it most certainly is a separation by doctrine.

Perhaps you're referring to the freedom of interpretation the church has within the scope of Paul's doctrines. As long as it doesn't lead to evil we can stay united in the fellowship of the Spirit.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
How do you determine good and evil if not by doctrine.

Even Paul says to use what he has written and said, that is, his doctrine, to initiate separation. So it most certainly is a separation by doctrine.

Perhaps you're referring to the freedom of interpretation the church has within the scope of Paul's doctrines. As long as it doesn't lead to evil we can stay united in the fellowship of the Spirit.
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Paul is not just saying, he is writing on our hearts. He is not giving us a list of rules, although we may see it that way, but he writes on the hearts, as I think. This is how we learn to determine good and evil.

I do not think a person can comprehend what Paul writes and says, however one can read and obey. To comprehend, one would need to grow to the same age as Paul, spiritually. And this is a path of a christian, in the Holly Spirit.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The various teachings of the faith are the doctrines of the church.
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Even when we repeat word by word what was said or written, we do not fully recreate the meaning. Meaning is central. And words are just means of conveying the meaning.

Rather than rewriting or re-pharasing what was said or written, and making a doctrine of it, can we write it straight into our hearts, and allow the Holly Spirit to explain us in an unspeakable way? In that case there will be no doctrine, but the written sermons will be written in our hearts.
 
2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work".
We should all meditate on this and let it sink into our hearts, because it comes straight from God.
 
sourberry said:
I wonder if such church exists, where the focus would not be on doctrines and teachings, and no teaching would prevail, but the focus was on the heart and what Jesus thinks of the heart?
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1 Timothy 1:8-11 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

I think I know what you're saying. Doctrines are good when they are based on the Gospel of Christ, and we know that he gospel of Christ is a simple message of his death, burial and resurrection in which we put our hope and faith into.

I'm currently doing a study, "Walking as Jesus Walked" and it's from Dann Spader from sonlife ministries. I'm going to post section two later today in the Lounge, I hope you'll join us!

When we look at doctrines, they should be more than statements of faith or expressions of belief. Doctrines, as outlined above to help us live lives in accordance with how Jesus would have us to live as our study will bear.

Perhaps more to your point, there will be divisions within the church over doctrines, but those doctrines should be grounded in the Gospel of Christ and that should be our measure and by way of example, doctrines that are meant to unite have been spoiled to divide and that's a shame.

Unity isn't uniformity and you'll never find a perfect church because each and every one of us is perfectly broken. But it's how we navigate those differences which shows if we are in Christ, or in our own flesh.

Grace and Peace Brother, and welcome to our nook.
 
I would probably find myself comfortable in some house church.

All thoughts and comments about house churches would be very much welcomed.

With love.
 
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We learn something new every day and Chritianity also moves with the times as we see from the Days of the Acts of the Apostels to where God's message has spread to this point in time.This might prove helpful in defining your needs if ,a conscept of not listening to a traditional modern sermon in the usual audience come preacher method dose not work for you but rather a more interactive forum type congregation which is not "Church" or "Denominational driven " but seeks to be more extenal in a missionarry sense ie "fishers of men"in the strict sense.They call it Emerging Churches .The way I see it ,its a movement where the Spirit walks with you everyday not only on Sudays in a set estalishement.They think of themselves as Post-Modern believers ,different to modern mindset traditional believers.Whether it is all that novel is debatable ,but check it out anyway.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church
 
sourberry said:
You are trying to dive into doctrines, and that is fine in my opinion. You think that all needs to be checked out from Bible. It is a doctrine. And it is all fine, as I think.

Preaching is not just telling, in my opinion. I do not think that Paul, or those that joined him in fellowship would carry a set of books saying - "hey, what we preach is in these books, and you need to check that all what we are preaching is in these books" (synagogue is a special case, when Paul would use Moses books). There were no books, as I think, but there was living water running out of the belly, this is how Gentiles were preached. You see? The doctrine of Bible came later, as I think.
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This was because it was not written and printed in its entirety yet, not because they chose not to use it. It was common for many Jews to have most of the OT Scriptures memorized, including Paul and there are constant references to these things as well as Jesus in the NT.

Jesus himself explained to the apostles that the Scriptures are written about Him, so while he may not have written them himself, like someone else said earlier, if you want to learn more about Jesus, you have to read the Scriptures; no way around that.
 
sourberry, I'm still not sure WHY you are against strong scriptural presence in a church. Could you explain more?
 
Well then
sourberry said:
I do not think I have expressed any "against" in my postings.

Which of my postings confused you?
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"You think that all needs to be checked out from Bible. It is a doctrine. And it is all fine, as I think." This sounds like you are against Scripture use to me, at least in the context of teaching. Maybe I was taking things out of context myself.
 
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