Losing Salvation

[Deborah13]

Well it appears we have around seven on this thread that have no idea if they're going to heaven, have only conditional life, and I would suppose that they think they keep the law in their own way. I applaud them in their determination to keep themselves in spite of the evidence against them; down deep inside they know they continue to sin, and are not remaining faithful unto the end.

As for me I am determined to believe I have been given eternal life, and am free to continue growing in grace. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Can you explain this scripture? To me it does indicate that it is possible for someone who has been sanctified by the blood of Christ to become apostate.
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[for_his_glory]

So you are saying that a person can be saved before they are sealed by the Holy Spirit?
So when is it that a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit?

No, I am saying at the time we heard the gospel and believed in our heart and made confession of faith, which is Christ Jesus, we were then at that time of confession immediately sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No, I am saying at the time we heard the gospel and believed in our heart and made confession of faith, which is Christ Jesus, we were then at that time of confession immediately sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Okay, but I don't understand why you are saying that you are against OSAS?

 

[Gary]

Gary
That scripture, Matthew 7:21-23, says to me that there are people who do things in the Lord's name, thinking that their works will save them.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
They take the credit for these mighty works that are done by God. They have received their reward from men.
Joh 6:28 They said therefore unto him, `What may we do that we may work the works of God?'
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'
Joh 6:30 They said therefore to him, `What sign, then, dost thou, that we may see and may believe thee? what dost thou work?
Joh 6:31 our fathers the manna did eat in the wilderness, according as it is having been written, Bread out of the heaven He gave them to eat.'
Joh 6:32 Jesus, therefore, said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread out of the heaven; but my Father doth give you the true bread out of the heaven;
Jesus understood what they were saying. They gave credit to Moses for the bread from heaven rather than the Father.

Regardless of what anyone says about those people, the bottom line is, They believed they were saved..............................and were not.

 

[Deborah13]

....

I agree with you that they thought they were. But I'm not sure how that relates to whether one can lose their salvation?

 

[Gary]

I agree with you that they thought they were. But I'm not sure how that relates to whether one can lose their salvation?

How does their believing they were saved differ in any way from those today who believe they are saved?

These people believed in their heart that they would be granted entrance into the Kingdom. Every person today who believes they are saved holds that same belief. What separates the two? What makes that one belief acceptable for some and unacceptable for others? One gets in and the other one doesn't.

What defines the dividing line between those who are accepted and those who aren't?


That should be the question.
.

 

[Blake]

I've seen people fall to their knees at an altar of prayer, sobbing uncontrollably in the Presence of God, an anointing so heavily upon them in their initial repentance that you could feel it in your own spirit. I've seen many of the same go right back out the door in weeks or months to follow, going back to their old ways, justifying their sins and whatever it is in their minds that tells them they can make it without the church. (Not intending to stir up a debate on that, either, make another post if you wish)

Yes, one can lose their salvation. The cross has paid for it all, but a sinners prayer is not a get out of hell free card. They are known by their fruits. If they are not bearing their own crosses, the battle is over.

 

[for_his_glory]

Okay, but I don't understand why you are saying that you are against OSAS?

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

First, I believe we who are in Christ will be here on this present earth until the harvest judgement in Rev 14:14-20 unless we have physically died. Second I believe we will go through all things of Revelation up until the vial judgements as right before they begin Jesus will return in the clouds and we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds, 1Thess 4:17. Until that time many have and many will face such great persecution even to death, but have never laid their cross down, but then you have those who have laid down their cross to save their own lives. These are the ones who have chosen to lose their salvation for they have blasphemed (grieved) that of the Holy Spirit, Matt 12:31; Eph 4:30 instead of trusting God in all things.

 

[Eugene]

I've seen people fall to their knees at an altar of prayer, sobbing uncontrollably in the Presence of God, an anointing so heavily upon them in their initial repentance that you could feel it in your own spirit. I've seen many of the same go right back out the door in weeks or months to follow, going back to their old ways.

I have too. Some even repeated certain sins in their live repeatedly for years before receiving deliverance; God's work continues throughout our lives as we read in Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I think I know how to identify those that just think they're saved. We're told to obey the laws of our land, and I observe those not adhering to Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. I can be driving along perfectly within the speed limit with everyone on the road passing me at least one mile per hour too fast. I wonder if they are traveling along constantly saying "Forgive me Father in Jesus' name" for not obeying You. Then the real hurt comes when they once forgot to repent before the last day only to find that Jesus had erased their name from the book of life (Rev 3:5), or had cast them out of His kingdom (Joh 6:37 & Joh 6:39). Oh the humanity huh? I reckon that dirty driver didn't realize they were only saved (They just thought they were saved) until they screwed up again.

 

[Blake]

I have too. Some even repeated certain sins in their live repeatedly for years before receiving deliverance; God's work continues throughout our lives as we read in Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I think I know how to identify those that just think they're saved. We're told to obey the laws of our land, and I observe those not adhering to Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. I can be driving along perfectly within the speed limit with everyone on the road passing me at least one mile per hour too fast. I wonder if they are traveling along constantly saying "Forgive me Father in Jesus' name" for not obeying You. Then the real hurt comes when they once forgot to repent before the last day only to find that Jesus had erased their name from the book of life (Rev 3:5), or had cast them out of His kingdom (Joh 6:37 & Joh 6:39). Oh the humanity huh? I reckon that dirty driver didn't realize they were only saved (They just thought they were saved) until they screwed up again.

I don't believe God is holding us up over some bubbling cauldron, waiting for our first little mistake so we can be dropped into it. No, God is exceedingly merciful.

Rev 3:5 that you quoted mentions "he that overcometh." Does that not imply a synergy type of relationship between our repentance and God's forgiveness? Not asked angrily, just inquisitively. I am not too proud for reproof and if I can learn something, I am here to learn.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you think you might lose your faith and not make it to heaven as well as all those that agree with you?
When do you know you're going to heaven?
When you take your last breath?
What if you die while you are asleep and are having a sinful dream?
Or think a sinful thought before you fall asleep?
Do you think God had to die for that?

Lol, like I said, too often, OSAS can only hear the non-OSAS argument as 'you are saved by works (not sinning)', when the argument is 'you are saved by your faith if it continues to the very end'.

Even when you point that out to them they still continue to hear it as 'you are saved by your works'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you think you might lose your faith and not make it to heaven as well as all those that agree with you?

Unless all the warnings to believers to not lose their faith somehow don't apply to me, then, 'yes', the potential for me to lose my faith is there. Paul said not to be arrogant about having been grafted into the vine, but to be humble remembering that we stand by faith.

When do you know you're going to heaven?

When I'm trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, that's when I know I'm going to heaven. Did God tell us another way that we go to heaven that you'd like to tell me about?

 

[Gary]

When do you know you're going to heaven?

Excellent question.

Do you have an answer?
.

 

[Eugene]

I don't believe God is holding us up over some bubbling cauldron, waiting for our first little mistake so we can be dropped into it. No, God is exceedingly merciful.

Rev 3:5 that you quoted mentions "he that overcometh." Does that not imply a synergy type of relationship between our repentance and God's forgiveness? Not asked angrily, just inquisitively. I am not too proud for reproof and if I can learn something, I am here to learn.

I agree with you Brother Blake. Just the admission of recognition of Jesus from the thief on the cross delivered him, although God sentenced Moses to death for unbelief (Deut 32:50-51) he was later seen with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration (Mark 9:4), and King Saul after his failure to even have God any longer answer his prayers, and after committing suicide was said to remain God's anointed (1 Sam 24:6). Where can we even begin with King David; there were not even sacrifices under law to cover his sins, and yet we read in Act 13:22 . . he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will. Brother, that is grace. When David found himself at the end of himself he asked in Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

In addition I would suggest the pamphlet I wrote at the following URL link.
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/

Thanks.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Lol, like I said, too often, OSAS can only hear the non-OSAS argument as 'you are saved by works (not sinning)', when the argument is 'you are saved by your faith if it continues to the very end'.

Even when you point that out to them they still continue to hear it as 'you are saved by your works'.

Whenever you use the "if", there is doubt in your mind.
I can see it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Unless all the warnings to believers to not lose their faith somehow don't apply to me, then, 'yes', the potential for me to lose my faith is there. Paul said not to be arrogant about having been grafted into the vine, but to be humble remembering that we stand by faith.



When I'm trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, that's when I know I'm going to heaven. Did God tell us another way that we go to heaven that you'd like to tell me about?

This debate always comes down to a disagreement as to who is saved, and who isn't.
That's the real point That we disagree on.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have belived that salvation will happen if you regret your sinds during your lifetime.

Yes, Paul talks about a sorrow for sin that leads to repentance:

9 ...you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God..." (2 Corinthians 7:9 NASB)

That is the good kind of sorrow--the sorrow that leads one to a turning away from wrong doing and on to salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Whenever you use the "if", there is doubt in your mind.
I can see it.

God as my witness, hand on my Bible, I don't have an ounce of doubt. I don't because my faith is presently very, very strong. But I've been a Christian long enough to know that faith can and and will be tried by fire. Some people's faith does not survive the fires of tribulation, while other's faith does. Mine has survived to date. And as long as I keep going back to God when the going gets tough my faith will endure, but sadly some do not do that and their faith perishes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This debate always comes down to a disagreement as to who is saved, and who isn't.
That's the real point That we disagree on.

Nope. We both agree that everyone who has faith is saved. What we disagree on is if faith can, and/or must, endure to the end to save a person on the Day of Wrath.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

God as my witness, hand on my Bible, I don't have an ounce of doubt. I don't because my faith is presently very, very strong. But I've been a Christian long enough to know that faith can and and will be tried by fire. Some people's faith does not survive the fires of tribulation, while other's faith does. Mine has survived to date. And as long as I keep going back to God when the going gets tough my faith will endure, but sadly some do not do that and their faith perishes.

You will be saved, and your household.