Losing Salvation

[Deborah13]

Okay, it's 3 in the morning and I need to go to sleep and will need to find the scripture later today but just believing is not salvation if there are no works. (James) You see, Satan and the demons have, in scripture demonstrated that they believe Jesus is the Son of God and they, certainly are not saved.

Going to sleep.

Jas 2:14 What is the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him?
Jas 2:15 and if a brother or sister may be naked, and may be destitute of the daily food,
Jas 2:16 and any one of you may say to them, `Depart ye in peace, be warmed, and be filled,' and may not give to them the things needful for the body, what is the profit?
Jas 2:17 so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.

So faith without good works is dead faith.

 

[Deborah13]

"...the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified..." (Hebrews 10: NASB)

Unbelieving Jews and unbelieving spouses and children are not sanctified by the blood of the covenant (Jesus' blood). If they were, they'd be saved. The nation of Israel was 'set apart' (sanctified) to ultimately receive sanctification by faith and the Spirit of God. Didn't happen, but the fact remains they were in fact 'set apart' for that purpose. They did not live up to their calling. The passage is specifically speaking about being sanctified by the blood of Jesus in salvation, not the general 'setting apart', or calling to be saved.

Also, sanctification in Temple worship meant taking common base things and declaring them fit for use by the people of God. Read the passage: In 1 Corinthians 7:14 NASB, Paul is explaining to believing spouses that they are not made unclean by contact with their unbelieving spouses and the children born of them (or, in other passages of the Bible, by gentiles). The believers families become sanctified--declared clean--and can not defile the believer making them unfit for worship of God. This sanctification--this cleaning, not salvation--allows the believer to have intimate contact with people they are normally forbidden to have that kind of contact with (2 Corinthians 6:14-18 NASB). This is not a sanctification of their families by the blood of Christ. If they were that, they'd be saved. This is the sanctification of being declared fit for use and unable to make one unclean.

When does the word ever say ones children are unfit for a mother to have contact with?
I've never see any such thing in all the Bible.
The point was that someone CAN be sanctified without being justified.
Hebrews says, they were sanctified but it doesn't say they were justified. Could a Jew be sanctified without being justified? Yes, it seems so. They were set apart.

 

[for_his_glory]

Many claim the name of Jesus through lip service only and have never truly been Spiritually born again and their names are not found written in the Lambs book of life for they add to and take away from the word of God, Rev 22:18, 19, even though they assume their names are there. Have they lost their salvation, no, because they never had Gods salvation to begin with. John 15; Matthew7:16, 20; Galatians 5:22; 2Peter 2:22 speaks of those who assume they are of Christ, but their branch did not remain in Christ as they bare no fruit. They remain in their own will and not Gods will. These are the ones who will not be able to endure unto the end and will not be saved and will hear Jesus say, "I never knew you", Matthew 7:21-23.

Those who are Spiritually born again, John 3:3-7, and have risen with Christ, Colossians 3:1-4, are those whose names are found written in the Lambs book of life. If we endure and overcome all persecution, even to death of this flesh, for the sake of Christ we will live and have eternal life with the Father. We are not saved at the moment of confession of faith that is Christ Jesus, Romans 10:9,10, but only sealed by the Holy Spirit who keeps us and will help us to endure all things of this world, John 14:26; John 6:26-29; 2Corinthians 1:21, 22.

Once saved always saved are only those who are in Christ and endure all persecutions, trials and tribulation as they stand strong in their faith, which is Christ Jesus, unto the end of days here on Earth as then they are saved from the lake of fire as their names are found written in the Lambs book of life which is eternal life with the Father. Let us be the Church of Philadelphia as the Church of Laodicea will God spew out of His mouth, Rev 3:7-22.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[iLOVE]

Couldn't be further from the truth!

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. 1 Corinthians 5:9-11

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-20


Paul makes it plain and clear!

...those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Will not inherit the kingdom of God = 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


JLB

Where is the kingdom of God?

 

[Deborah13]

I've started to respond to different posts but when people believe that when Jesus says,
"I NEVER knew you." He really means that He used to know them but doesn't anymore what can I say.

 

[YosefHayim]

Those who think they can keep them selves from losing salvation will lose it. They think they can preserve themselves but can not.
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Luke 17:33

The only way we endure is by Christ dwelling in us after we have believed.
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 2 Tim 4:18
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked. Psalm 97:10


Loss of salvation is a double-speaking subterfuge of works salvation in disguise, and then God doesn't finish what he started

Our works and endurance is not ours. It's God's.
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philippians 1:6

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When does the word ever say ones children are unfit for a mother to have contact with?
I've never see any such thing in all the Bible.

Deborah, I included the link in my post. But here it is in full:

"14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 17 "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you. 18 "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty." (2 Corinthians 6: NASB)

The Corinthians were using this truth to justify divorcing their unsaved spouses. Paul addresses that situation by saying they are not made unclean by being bound with an unbelieving spouse. And since the spouse has been declared clean for the purpose of the believer being bound to them, the kids as a result of that union are also clean, otherwise they'd be unclean.

The point was that someone CAN be sanctified without being justified.

No question about it. But the text plainly talks about the one who has been sanctified by the blood of Christ, not just sanctified. That is NOT the same as an unbelieving spouse being sanctified for a believing spouse. If it did mean that, they'd no longer be unbelieving spouses, they'd be saved spouses.

Hebrews says, they were sanctified but it doesn't say they were justified. Could a Jew be sanctified without being justified? Yes, it seems so. They were set apart.

Yes, that's what I said in my post. But that is quite different than being sanctified by the blood of Jesus. If you have been sanctified by the blood of Jesus you are saved. All through the letter the author of Hebrews confirms that they are indeed saved believers. We don't need to wonder if 'sanctified' means something other than being sanctified by the blood of Jesus in salvation. The text plainly says that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've started to respond to different posts but when people believe that when Jesus says,
"I NEVER knew you." He really means that He used to know them but doesn't anymore what can I say.

One argument is these folks did not move on to maturity in their salvation. They are like the second type of soil where the person really does believe, but only for a while. Their roots don't go down very deep so the word of God in them never comes to maturity and they fall away. "Knew you' is referring to a mature knowing of Christ in salvation, not salvation itself. 1 John seems to defend this element of mature 'knowing'. It is signified by love, not the lawlessness of not loving others for which these people will be condemned for. This, I believe, is Gary's argument.

An alternate argument is Jesus is talking to a very specific group of people who personally knew him but whom he never 'knew'. Not 'knew' as in a mature, intimate relationship (like in the above argument), but actually never knew them in salvation, period. Where does this argument come from? Luke 13:24-27 NASB...

24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' 26 "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets '; 27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'

I'm still torn as to which argument Jesus is actually making (both are good). These legitimate arguments show us that "I never knew you" does not have to mean that, categorically, everybody who doesn't get saved on the Day of Wrath was never saved to begin with. No. We have two very good arguments that show it doesn't have to mean that.

 

[Deborah13]

Nope. We both agree that everyone who has faith is saved. What we disagree on is if faith can, and/or must, endure to the end to save a person on the Day of Wrath.

So no one can say they are saved today. That in effect this is what you are saying. Only those who endure to the end will THEN will be saved.
All you can say is that if you were to die today, you WOULD be saved. Future tense.

 

[YosefHayim]

 

[YosefHayim]

24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' 26 "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets '; 27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'

Analogy. I saw a kid in school. He sat at my table. I saw him speaking in class. One day I was like "It's been a long time man". But because we never were friends in school, he said "Do I know you?".

They rejected him. Though seeing him, they did not see. and when it was too late they were like "we want in!".

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:19-31

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah, I included the link in my post. But here it is in full:

"14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 17 "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you. 18 "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty." (2 Corinthians 6: NASB)

I know why the unbelieving spouse is sanctified. According to the OT law, the child would be considered illegitimate and not have the same privileges as other children of the nation. For instance they could never be a leader or a priest. This stigma follows on to his children for four generations, if I remember the generation number correctly. So this sanctification protects the children of this marriage from being considered illegitimate by the church and not have the same privileges as those who were born to two believers.

The Corinthians were using this truth to justify divorcing their unsaved spouses. Paul addresses that situation by saying they are not made unclean by being bound with an unbelieving spouse. And since the spouse has been declared clean for the purpose of the believer being bound to them, the kids as a result of that union are also clean, otherwise they'd be unclean.

Where does it say that the Corinthians were using this to justify divorce? It never says that at all. I try to picture what that situation would be like. I learn that I shouldn't be married to an unbeliever and what does that mean for my children. I can see why people would asking Paul what they SHOULD do.
So he tells them. What a relief that would be to many of them and to many people today.

No question about it. But the text plainly talks about the one who has been sanctified by the blood of Christ, not just sanctified. That is NOT the same as an unbelieving spouse being sanctified for a believing spouse. If it did mean that, they'd no longer be unbelieving spouses, they'd be saved spouses.

What I am thinking about is the word 'sanctified' and what that means and how it applies to this verse.
We cannot just Assume that it means they were also justified by the blood of Christ because it just does not say that. It doesn't say they were saved either.
All the Jews had been 'sanctified', set apart, but they were not all justified or saved. The author is speaking to Jews, so he would use terms and references they would understand. So how would they understand what he was saying? That is what we need to know because that is what our understanding should be.

Yes, that's what I said in my post. But that is quite different than being sanctified by the blood of Jesus. If you have been sanctified by the blood of Jesus you are saved. All through the letter the author of Hebrews confirms that they are indeed saved believers. We don't need to wonder if 'sanctified' means something other than being sanctified by the blood of Jesus in salvation. The text plainly says that.

Jesus said He knew Abraham. Abraham's faith was looking forward to the cross. Some of them before the cross understood and believed that the Messiah would come and understood that He would redeem them. But all of them were sanctified. They were sanctified before He was actually manifested and His blood shed for them. So the author warns them that they must not when presented with the truth reject Him and His blood and returned to the blood of bulls and goats.
That's just what my thoughts are right now.

 

[Deborah13]

One argument is these folks did not move on to maturity in their salvation. They are like the second type of soil where the person really does believe, but only for a while. Their roots don't go down very deep so the word of God in them never comes to maturity and they fall away. "Knew you' is referring to a mature knowing of Christ in salvation, not salvation itself. 1 John seems to defend this element of mature 'knowing'. It is signified by love, not the lawlessness of not loving others for which these people will be condemned for. This, I believe, is Gary's argument.

An alternate argument is Jesus is talking to a very specific group of people who personally knew him but whom he never 'knew'. Not 'knew' as in a mature, intimate relationship (like in the above argument), but actually never knew them in salvation, period. Where does this argument come from? Luke 13:24-27 NASB...

24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' 26 "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets '; 27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'

I'm still torn as to which argument Jesus is actually making (both are good). These legitimate arguments show us that "I never knew you" does not have to mean that, categorically, everybody who doesn't get saved on the Day of Wrath was never saved to begin with. No. We have two very good arguments that show it doesn't have to mean that.

And I didn't mean that either. This particular verse says what it says! He NEVER knew them.
He never knew these particular ones. We cannot use this scripture to prove OSAS or non-OSAS, as far as I can see.

 

[Gary]

And I didn't mean that either. This particular verse says what it says! He NEVER knew them.
He never knew these particular ones. We cannot use this scripture to prove OSAS or non-OSAS, as far as I can see.

Are you referring to what I posted from Matthew?

 

[Deborah13]

Are you referring to what I posted from Matthew?

No, what you said, if I understood you correctly, is that THEY THOUGHT that they were saved. I agree with you that they thought they were saved.

Or at least they thought that Jesus should save them.

What I am saying is the Jesus said He never knew them. Never means never. So I think that's pretty clear that they were never saved.
But that does not prove that OSAS is true. Neither does it prove OSAS is not true. This verse just doesn't help us out with that.
It doesn't matter what they believed about their salvation. Just because one believes something does not make it true or not true.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I've started to respond to different posts but when people believe that when Jesus says,
"I NEVER knew you." He really means that He used to know them but doesn't anymore what can I say.

That's a serious question that others need to consider because Jesus telling one that He never knew them is such a serious charge and God does not fool around.

 

[Gary]

No, what you said, if I understood you correctly, is that THEY THOUGHT that they were saved. I agree with you that they thought they were saved.

Or at least they thought that Jesus should save them.

Ok, just checking.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Those who think they can keep them selves from losing salvation will lose it. They think they can preserve themselves but can not.
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Luke 17:33

The only way we endure is by Christ dwelling in us after we have believed.
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 2 Tim 4:18
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked. Psalm 97:10


Loss of salvation is a double-speaking subterfuge of works salvation in disguise, and then God doesn't finish what he started

Our works and endurance is not ours. It's God's.
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philippians 1:6

I'm old and I admit it so what are you saying here? All I can see is double speak.

 

[JLB]

Where is the kingdom of God?

Within believers.

Not unbelievers!

JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Our works and endurance is not ours. It's God's.
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philippians 1:6

Now this particular scripture says to me that if God was the one who began a good work in a person, HE WILL perform it. HE will see that it gets done no matter what. I don't think that means He forces someone to stay with Him. But I do believe He knows their heart and He can bring them to repentance if that is what they need to do.
Once again I look at King David, it took his son facing death to bring him to repentance. God used Nathan to do that. God knew David's heart. He knew David did not hate Him, what he did was weak in the flesh but not to disrespect or to discredit God in anyway. So God kept him from destruction. His judgement came in this life but not in the next.
He had begun a good work in David and He saw that it got done.