Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Losing Salvation

I'm old and I admit it so what are you saying here? All I can see is double speak.
I was saying that the doctrine of salvation loss is double speak. It claims not to be works salvation, while saying you need works to stay saved. And goes against the fact that God finishes what he started in the believer.

Those who think they can keep them selves from losing salvation will lose it. They think they can preserve themselves but can not.

Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Luke 17:33

The only way we endure is by Christ dwelling in us after we have believed.
And THE LORD shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 2 Tim 4:18
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: HE preserveth the souls of his saints; HE delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked. Psalm 97:10

Our works and endurance is not ours. It's God's.
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philippians 1:6
 
I was saying that the doctrine of salvation loss is double speak. It claims not to be works salvation, while saying you need works to stay saved. And goes against the fact that God finishes what he started in the believer.

The work that we are to do is believe.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent. John 6:29


The work, that Jesus taught us to do is believe.

Your doctrine differs from what Jesus taught us, in that, it seems that you believe the work is for God to do the believing for us.

Who is responsible for doing the believing?

Us or God?


Did you realize that the Greek word for unbelief is the same word as disobedience.

Unbelief = Disobedience.


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 6:4 KJV

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV



Paul says it this way -

They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:16


In works they deny Him!


Jesus said it this way to those on His left hand -

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;

I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;

I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'

Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'


Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'


You did not do it...

Doing seems to be what Jesus was talking about.

These on His left hand professed to know Him, but in works they denied Him...


'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41



JLB



 
Only God can do miracles, not you or I.
I believe a time will come when God will surprise us with the miracles he did for us.

Why is that exactly? Jesus said we would cast out devils in his name Mark 16:17 Yet the only demon casting you see or hear about is made for TV propaganda thats more then likely an unrighteous falsehood. Out of 7 billion people is there not ONE Christian with enough faith to cast a devil out someone, or heal the sick?
 
I was saying that the doctrine of salvation loss is double speak. It claims not to be works salvation, while saying you need works to stay saved. And goes against the fact that God finishes what he started in the believer.

Those who think they can keep them selves from losing salvation will lose it. They think they can preserve themselves but can not.

Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Luke 17:33

The only way we endure is by Christ dwelling in us after we have believed.
And THE LORD shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 2 Tim 4:18
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: HE preserveth the souls of his saints; HE delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked. Psalm 97:10

Our works and endurance is not ours. It's God's.
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philippians 1:6
10-4, agreed. All that I have done since 1990 fo0r the glory of my God has naught to do with my salvation but has everything to do with His glory.
 
The work that we are to do is believe.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent. John 6:29


The work, that Jesus taught us to do is believe.

Your doctrine differs from what Jesus taught us, in that, it seems that you believe the work is for God to do the believing for us.

Who is responsible for doing the believing?

Us or God?


Did you realize that the Greek word for unbelief is the same word as disobedience.

Unbelief = Disobedience.


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 6:4 KJV

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV



Paul says it this way -

They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:16


In works they deny Him!


Jesus said it this way to those on His left hand -

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;

I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;

I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'

Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'


Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'


You did not do it...

Doing seems to be what Jesus was talking about.

These on His left hand professed to know Him, but in works they denied Him...


'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41



JLB
JLB,
You need to go back and reread the string for a way because you just jumped and put both feet in a sack of bull manure. Yoseph and I were not discussing the point you are injecting here.
 
Why is that exactly? Jesus said we would cast out devils in his name Mark 16:17 Yet the only demon casting you see or hear about is made for TV propaganda thats more then likely an unrighteous falsehood. Out of 7 billion people is there not ONE Christian with enough faith to cast a devil out someone, or heal the sick?
My, my, my... my! You honestly need to either read the Word of God or to get out of the US and Europe. Even I and eleven other men have been used in the healing of Cancer and Missionaries in the Third World Nations of the world are used of God to heal, today.

In the US and Europe the faith is sick and pretty much useless except in rare cases. But in nations filled with new Christians they have not been infected with all of the nay saying and their faith is pure and it is strong and there, God works through worms like you and I.
 
And I didn't mean that either. This particular verse says what it says! He NEVER knew them.
He never knew these particular ones. We cannot use this scripture to prove OSAS or non-OSAS, as far as I can see.
The point is, it can not be used as a text that proves, categorically, that all people who are lost were never saved to begin with. I offered two scriptural reasons why we don't have to use it that way.

1) The 'knowing' Christ is referring to may be the 'knowing' that John talks about in 1 John--the 'knowing' of a mature relationship with Christ, signified by the mature fruit of love for others.

or

2) Christ may be speaking of a very specific group of people who he makes reference to in Luke 13 for which it really is true that they simply never were saved, and so he never 'knew' them that way.

Take your pick. But one thing's for sure, the Matthew passage can't mean that every single person who doesn't get saved on the Day of Wrath without exception was never ever saved to begin with. The rest of scripture simply does not support this. That interpretation actually contradicts other more plainly understood scripture. That being true, we need to look at the two possibilities of what Jesus was saying in Matthew 7 that I listed above as valid alternatives to the popular 'they were never saved to begin with' interpretation of the passage. Alternative interpretations that remove any possibility for contradiction with other scripture.
 
Last edited:
My, my, my... my! You honestly need to either read the Word of God or to get out of the US and Europe. Even I and eleven other men have been used in the healing of Cancer and Missionaries in the Third World Nations of the world are used of God to heal, today.

In the US and Europe the faith is sick and pretty much useless except in rare cases. But in nations filled with new Christians they have not been infected with all of the nay saying and their faith is pure and it is strong and there, God works through worms like you and I.
Tis true.
 
Why is that exactly? Jesus said we would cast out devils in his name Mark 16:17 Yet the only demon casting you see or hear about is made for TV propaganda thats more then likely an unrighteous falsehood. Out of 7 billion people is there not ONE Christian with enough faith to cast a devil out someone, or heal the sick?
The greatest miracle of all is to allow the Holy Spirit to speak through us to another and see them accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
And it's the Holy Spirit doing that miracle, not us.
 
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[c]

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:28 NKJV

By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 1 John 4:17 NASB

Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 1:24 NKJV

.... for He [God] [b]Himself has said, I will not in any way fail you nor [c]give you up nor leave you without support. [I will] not, [d][I will] not, [I will] not in any degree leave you helpless nor forsake nor [e]let [you] down ([f]relax My hold on you)! [[g]Assuredly not!] Hebrews 13:5 AMP
 
Luke 15 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Parable of the Lost Sheep

15 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The Parable of the Lost Coin

8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins,[a] if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ 10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

The Parable of the Lost Son

11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.

17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.”’

20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring[b] out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.

25 “Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’

28 “But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. 29 So he answered and said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’

31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
 
17 Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!

18 But all things are from God, Who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation [that by word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him].

19 It was God [personally present] in Christ, reconciling and restoring the world to favor with Himself, not counting up and holding against [men] their trespasses [but cancelling them], and committing to us the message of reconciliation (of the restoration to favor).

20 So we are Christ’s ambassadors, God making His appeal as it were through us. We [as Christ’s personal representatives] beg you for His sake to lay hold of the divine favor [now offered you] and be reconciled to God.

21 For our sake He made Christ [virtually] to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in and through Him we might become [[g]endued with, viewed as being in, and examples of] the righteousness of God [what we ought to be, approved and acceptable and in right relationship with Him, by His goodness]. 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 AMP
 
Back
Top