[__ Prayer __] Lost and confused

[UncertainBranch]

Hi, I'm new here. My name is Greg. I have a lot to contribute on some of the other theology/doctrine threads, because the Holy Spirit has opened up quite a bit for me in the scriptures that I don't ever see mentioned anywhere else. But first and foremost, I have some serious problems in my walk and I appreciate any prayers, advice, or encouragement from fellow members of the body.

Before I was saved, I had become a raging alcoholic, addicted to casual sex with loads of women as well as men. This always disgusted me, and I had become detached from myself, my sexuality becoming fluid and separate from who I saw myself as as a person. Any attempt at seriously coming to God was cut short by an overwhelming feeling of guilt and condemnation, a sense of distance, and purely intellectual consent in my belief (I believed "deep down," but it wasn't honest or open, and it didn't gel with the rest of who I was).

I was saved at the beginning of this year. I was raised Christian, and I prayed from time to time when I was scared, or felt like sharing something with God, or needed something. I was scared of the Bible, couldn't relate to it, and couldn't reconcile it with evolution, science, or my own experience and understanding of life. God either felt like an unknowable, fearful, alien being, or a big teddy bear imaginary friend type of person who was just watching over my life with happiness and joy, feeling displeasure at my sin but His love eclipsing any serious negativity toward me.

I was extremely naive. This past year, after paying close attention to the things going on in the world during the 2016 election, I began to truly come to grips with my own mortality for the first time. I was watching footage of people in Syria being beheaded, tortured, burned alive, etc. I also realized, deep in my soul, that I was very likely going to hell if such a place truly existed.

Several months later, after studying the Bible and listening to countless hours of Christian teaching, I did a simple repeat-after-me prayer, expecting nothing. It wasn't the sinner's prayer or anything, it was a specific prayer geared toward forgiveness of someone close to you. In the middle of it, as I was thinking of what to say and who to forgive, the words struck my mind from the depths of my soul and came out of my mouth before I'd even thought of them. I immediately knew that that had not come from me, and that I was not alone. I wept in astonishment, and in hindsight, I'm reminded of how the Holy Spirit leads us in what to ask for and speaks on our behalf, lifting our voice up in the Spirit. I swore myself to Jesus Christ, accepted Him into my heart openly, and my life was changed.

It's hard to describe, but the world felt and looked completely different afterwards. I didn't know any doctrine at the time, and I honestly didn't even know what the gospel was. I didn't even know what the Holy Spirit was. But very quickly, the Bible began to speak to me in ways that blew me away. The Word would follow me through my day, and every little thing I'd learn would work itself into my daily walk and write itself into my heart through experience. On the outside, an atheist or agnostic would call them coincidences. But the doctrine was written out before my eyes in my very life, and unfolded in ways that were unmistakably from God. I have a lot of great little stories and moments in my walk that I still cherish upon remembering them, and I love to share them.

But I got cocky, and overconfident. I assumed I would never sin wilfully again. And I might never have, if I'd remained fearful and not fallen when temptation sprung up. Even on the day it happened, I had just learned the warnings in James, about not erring, letting patience have her perfect work when tried with temptation, and not returning to your old way of life after beholding your true self in the mirror.

Anyway, to make a long story short (I have limited space here), I ended up plunging back into sin for the next few weeks (I'd been saved and clean, with a wholesome, restored conscience for the first time, for a month and a half). I was cocky and overconfident, and I assumed I could handle drinking with an old sex partner, banking on the fact that I'd witnessed to her, pointedly told her we couldn't do anything sexual ever again, and felt sure and safe in my position in Christ. This arrogance and naivety led to a downward spiral of sin, in which I relapsed back into nearly every sin I'd ever committed, including sex with woman -- and with men.

I would repent, beg foegiveness, and then be unable to return to that state of clean conscience. I read the verses in Hebrews 6 and elsewhere about being cut off, being irredeemable after becoming entangled again in sin once you'd been freed from it, about how it would be better for me if I'd never known the way of righteousness than to know it and turn from it back to my sin.

I fear that I've become a reprobate, and that I've been given over. People will tell me to simply confess my sins and accept His forgiveness, but my heart feels hardened. I don't feel joy or hope anymore, and Jesus Himself is beginning to feel like more of a concept (even though I KNOW that He's God) than a personal Savior. I'm slowly beginning to fear that I understand those verses in a practical sense now, too little too late. I don't know how, or if, I can ever be restored to having a pure conscience. A guilty conscience before God leads to unbelief as a coping mechanism, as well as continued sin. You may try to quit, and you may mean it, but you will no longer completely be able to. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I think about Paul, and how he said that he was forgiven because he did those things "in ignorance and unbelief." I imagine what Paul's testimony would look like if he'd lost his temper and slaughtered one or two more Christians after having been saved.

I can no longer look at people honestly and say, "Christ changed me from the inside out, I'm not the same person anymore. He saved me from my sins." Because I've gone through periods during my sanctifying walk with Him where I've behaved exactly like I had before I was saved, and even began to miss my own sovereign will and the pleasures of sin. I began to notice a subtle shift in my object of hope, noticing that my only secret hope now was that Christianity was false, or that the verses I'd read weren't true. Because if they were (and I knew they were), I had just rejected the only hope I could ever trust in, and I'd returned to my vomit, a dog after all, my true nature chosen and cemented for all eternity. I began to realize why unsaved people have such resistant coping mechanisms up against the Gospel -- it's because it condemns them. If they'll admit this, that condemnation can shine through as conviction, and they can be led to Christ. But for the unsaved and the reprobate, accepting Christ means accepting hell -- and for someone who's already damaged their saving relationship with Christ, that means accepting that you are definitely going to hell, or at the very least your salvation is uncertain. Neither of those involve the hope and confidence we're warned to hold fast to until the end. Instead, I find myself having "a certain fearful looking for of fiery indignation, that will consume the adversaries." I'm sorry, but only a Christian who has fallen would experience that. I've heard arguments about how a true reprobate wouldn't care at all or feel the least bit guilty about their sin, so I should be in good shape since I'm obviously concerned -- but that's not what these verses teach.

I have much, much more to say on this, but I just wanted to say something for now at least. I'm lost and confused, and I've confessed my sins over and over, only to end up repeating them over and over, turning God's grace into lasciviousness, doing despite to the Spirit of grace and grieving Him. God has turned His face away from me, and for a Christian, nothing is more terrifying or discouraging. I can barely pray, I have a guilty conscience that cannot seem to be washed clean no matter how many times I confess, and I can barely feel an ebb from the Holy Spirit in my life. My prayers are empty, half-hearted, and the heavens are brass. I can sense it. The Holy Spirit has returned to work His hand in my life multiple times after backsliding, but I've threaded sin into my walk with God now. I don't know how to go back to a clean slate, even with 1 John 1:9. Please pray for me, and consider my experience as a strong warning against taking sin lightly. Those verses in the Word are extremely severe, and they have a sense of finality to them that cuts me to the core. Please pray for me, and I will post more on here from time to time. God bless all of you, and may He keep you through storms of temptation. He is more than able to -- but you have to keep hold of His hand.

 

[Eugene]

I'm lost and confused

Dear UncertainBranch, it appears you have been trusting in your quality of faith instead of God’s work going on in your life, and this is not to judge you. Part of repentance is putting away the things we think is right, and allowing God’s will for us to be established in us. Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Your uncertainty is pronounced in your user name, and condemnation profound in your testimony. If you’ll read of the Apostle Paul’s testimony in the book of Romans Chapter Seven, you’ll see the battle he experienced after he was saved. Don’t expect less, but then notice his first words in Rom 8:1 as he points back by using the word THEREFORE. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus!!!!!

I read of your Come to God moment, and it was real. (Ever heard of Fox Hole Conversions)
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

Jesus died for you, and you have called upon His name: you belong as a brother in the Church; the very body of Christ. Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His body's sake, which is the church:

To begin experiencing the deliverance you’ve received, you’ve got to know you are forgiven, are a child of God, and have been given tools to know the overcoming you are capable of. I have written the following two pamphlets I hope will help you as you establish your walk in Christ.

The Armor of God
http://www.christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/the-armor-of-god.51558/

Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[UncertainBranch]

One more thing, sorry. In studying repentance, many other things have been opened up for me in the Word. To repent is to CHANGE as the RESULT of a COMPLETE CHANGE. It's also 'to perceive afterwards'. This is the issue of salvation past (new birth), salvation present (sanctification), and salvation future (glorification) all in one cohesive sentence. The moment of your new birth is simultaneously the 'to change' as well as the 'COMPLETE change.' It's a down payment on your inheritance, an assurance that, yes, there is a complete, glorified state for you that has been confirmed to the image of Christ through sanctification guided by His hand (by the will of the Father, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit). Thus, when you are born again, you are truly born again. You have eternal life. God is giving you a taste of what He has in store for you, and has declared you righteous -- but you have to come out on that other side to that state of 'complete change,' for the initial 'to change' to be complete as well, and thus your salvation as a whole realized. This is why, in my opinion, there are so many strong warnings and admonitions to hold steadfast, remain, abide, etc, or else you will be cut off.

It's not Christ cutting you off, by the way -- it's the Father. Hence why He says that many will come to Him saying, Lord, Lord, and He will confess to never have known them. Many seem to interpret this as Him meaning, I didn't TRULY know you...but it might also mean that the Father cut them off from having been foreknown. Judas had apparently obtained a place in the ministry when the Holy Spirit was to be poured out, but he had obviously lost his place (cursed is he that hangeth on a tree -- Judas hung there on his own, bearing his own blood, instead of allowing Christ to bear that curse on his behalf. But notice, Judas didn't spend the silver. He tried to give it back. I think he tried to repent but "found no place for repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears").

The whole cursing of the fig tree, the parable of the barren fig tree, the parallels with Nebuchadnezzar's tree being cut down but allowed one more chance to grow right and bear fruit (like the barren fig tree was given one more year), etc. And verses like "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God. Sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you -- provided you REMAIN in His kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off." I don't know how else to interpret that. You have to be grafted onto the vine as a branch in the first place in order to be cut off. I've heard teachings where being "cut off" is simply losing your rewards and not your salvation, but every time "cut off" is used, it's in the context of a worthless branch that is only useful for burning ("the salt hath lost its savour").

I don't mean to scare anyone or bring dissension into the body, but I really would like to talk to people about these verses. Every time I hear them preached, it never puts the issue to rest and I'm mostly unsatisfied with their interpretations. Not to mention the fact that people usually only quote one or two of them and explain them away, but neglect the dozens of others that seem to be pointing to a doctrine that, understandably, people are loathe to confront and very uncomfortable dealing with.

 

[Eugene]

To repent is to CHANGE as the RESULT of a COMPLETE CHANGE.

Okay. I hope you find the answers you seek.

 

[UncertainBranch]

Dear UncertainBranch, it appears you have been trusting in your quality of faith instead of God’s work going on in your life, and this is not to judge you. Part of repentance is putting away the things we think is right, and allowing God’s will for us to be established in us. Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Your uncertainty is pronounced in your user name, and condemnation profound in your testimony. If you’ll read of the Apostle Paul’s testimony in the book of Romans Chapter Seven, you’ll see the battle he experienced after he was saved. Don’t expect less, but then notice his first words in Rom 8:1 as he points back by using the word THEREFORE. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus!!!!!

I read of your Come to God moment, and it was real. (Ever heard of Fox Hole Conversions)
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

Jesus died for you, and you have called upon His name: you belong as a brother in the Church; the very body of Christ. Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His body's sake, which is the church:

To begin experiencing the deliverance you’ve received, you’ve got to know you are forgiven, are a child of God, and have been given tools to know the overcoming you are capable of. I have written the following two pamphlets I hope will help you as you establish your walk in Christ.

The Armor of God
http://www.christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/the-armor-of-god.51558/

Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Sorry, I'd already typed that last reply before I read yours. Thank you so much for replying, and I will certainly read those pamphlets you wrote. Thank you for the words of encouragement. I know that my salvation was real, which is why I can't simply "crucify Him afresh" to myself all over again, which gives me some encouragement.

As for "There is now therefore no condemnation," though, I've fallen into a fault over that verse. In John it's stated that the condemnation is that light came into the world, and the world rejected that light, because their deeds were evil. Jesus also talks about how those whose deeds are evil cannot come into the light, because their deeds would be made manifest and reproved. He says that those who come into the light are able to do so because of the confidence that they have, in showing that they were wrought in God, ie they bear a testimony of being saved by Christ and redeemed. This makes me nervous, as Christ says that "those who shrink from me in fear, my soul hath no pleasure." And just a few verses later, it says that those who shrink back from Him in fear ("a certain fearful looking for of fiery indignation") are drawn back unto perdition. That's damnation. It's not just the specific verses that worry me, it's the overlying logic and consistency behind them, that always seems to lie behind a doctrine in the Word.

Understand, I don't WANT to believe this. I want to believe that I'm secure. And I do believe that those who don't spit in the face of His sacrifice ARE secure. But there seems to be another aspect of this that I can't ignore, because I've come to trust in His entire Word. It scares me because "the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." The Spirit has given me life after being convicted of sin, but now those warnings are no longer simply warnings -- they apply directly to me. And so I fear that I've come back under the law of the letter, in that God's Word itself is condemning me. Not all of it, obviously, but these verses in particular.

I have indeed become entangled in sin again, as warned against in 1 Peter, and I have indeed fallen away as in Hebrews 6:4. The language in these verses seem to leave no wiggle room, and I find myself trying to reconcile God's Word and my own experience in watching the Holy Spirit move in my life. Apparently this is something Calvinists do in order to ensure themselves of being in good favor with God or not. And I don't want to be in their camp of belief, or rely on something so flimsy as my own understanding or experience.

Anyway, like I said, I really don't want to cause any doubt or bring heresies in or anything of that nature. It's kept me from talking to people about this in the past, because most brothers and sisters don't want to spend too much time on this issue, and if it's pressed too hard they get offended or irritated. That's definitely not my intent. I just need help.

 

[Eugene]

I just need help.

Praise God. That's exactly what calling on the name of the Lord is. As you'll read in my pamphlets, there are different contexts of salvation, and when we begin our journey we are subject to every wind of doctrine, and that can throw us for a loop. E.g., to start with, salvation is spoken of as provisional: if we call upon His name. Once we do that it confirmed to us that we've overcome the penalty of sin forever because we believed on Him, and comparing Israel as a type in the desert we head to the promised land, and then comes the battles we wage learning to over the habit of sin in our lives; they fought many enemies in that land of Canaan. Num 13:27-28. Last of all salvation is to be experienced in heaven saved from the very presence of sin.

There are many things in our lives to bring us the the perfect will of God for us. There is consequence to sin because it does defeat our purpose to have God's best. My friend, grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus and you'll begin to find peace unto your soul.
An example you may have read of is Kink David's life; he did near everything wrong, and yet God made him to become the direct genealogy of our Lord Jesus. Rom 1:3.

David did suffer being cast down in spirit, and said in:
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

With all that, can you really believe this next scripture?
In Act 13:22 God said, . . . I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will.

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello UncertainBranch, dirtfarmer here

I have read all 3 of your post and you definitely know and have read a lot of scripture. I will tell you that scripture is true; " There is therefore, now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus. There are some indicaters that are present that God is still working with and in you. This I will tell you, that although you speak as one that has received salvation no one can confirm your salvation, but the Spirit of God. We are told that the Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we are ( now, present tense) the children of God.

Scripture tell us that there is only one sin that is unforgivible and that sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is not believing that Christ died to pay debt, when convicted by that same Spirit. While a person is alive physically there is always the ability to accept Christ as your savior, but when physical death comes your way, it is, then, too late.

Judas Iscariot is the only son of perdition, no one else has that distinction.

Salvation has 3 parts or phases.
1. we are saved from the penalty of sin. By this, if we are saved, we have already been judged in Christ and the penalty of sin no longer subject to eternal separation from God. The relationship between God and the saved is secure in Christ, but fellowship with God can be broken.
2. we are saved from the power of sin, it no longer has any dominion over the believer, but it is possible for the believer that is out of fellowship with God to be overtaken in faults (sin)
3. we will be saved from the presence of sin when we are in Christ's present, but at this present time, while alive physical, we are not in the presence of Jesus Christ. He lives in our heart, but we are not in his persence, as he is now making intercession for us when the devil accuses us when we are over taken in faults. The evil is saying to the Father: "Did you see that, they sinned", but Christ as our intercessor is also in God's presence saying: " They have been cover by my blood that was shed on the cross.