LUCIFER

[jeremiah1five]

I partly agree. Only God is Perfect in Holiness:

He puts no trust in His holy ones; The heavens are not guiltless in His sight; (Job 15:15 TNK)

But Satan wasn't sinful until he decided he served God for selfish reasons, and rebelled against Him.

I'm speculating now, but its likely Satan could have begged God to purge the iniquity before he sinned.

[This is hypothetical, because he is the Devil, the father of lies and all evil But it was his choice to sin, and therefore what happens to him is upon his own head. Its his own fault.]

By a Spirit of Judgment, by a Spirit of burning, purge it out of him just as God will do for the daughters of Zion:

When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, (Isa. 4:4 NKJ)

Just as He does for many who go to hell, slaves of sin and delusion. God restores them to sanity, the fire of God's inspection brings to the surface, the truth of the individual much as a torture rack caused truth to come out, or the gold revealed through its covering.

That is what the Torments in Hades are designed to do.

"And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos)in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:23 NKJ)

931 βάσανος basanos

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth 3) torture, torment, acute pains 3a) of the pains of a disease 3b) of those in hell after death.

Evidently, there is no forgiveness for Satan and angels once they sin. Even the angelic "sons of God" who did not join Satan's rebellion, but sinned with human females, are forever bound in "everlasting chains":

And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; (Jude 1:6 NKJ)

Imagine a world without fallen angels.

I can't believe you think as you do.

BUT believers love God's Word and to them it is nourishment. BUT ONLY TRUTH is nourishment.

You are starving if you are true-born of God.

Get your doctrine in order. We MUST ALL see the same Jesus.
We MUST ALL say the same thing as God.
To do otherwise is to OPPOSE God.

Think about it.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Dig in .

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lucifer+mistranslation&ia=web

You have itching ears. The answer is in Scripture. Not outside it.

6 And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan. Gen. 30:6. (which means God has judged me).

32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; Gen. 29:32. (Which means God has looked at my affliction).

35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; Gen. 29:35. (Which means Praise the Lord!)

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Is. 14:12. (Lucifer means son of the morning.)

Stay Biblical.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Ecclesiastes 7:29 kjv
29. Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

On the evidence of two or three witnesses.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Upright.

Strong's
from <H3474> (yashar); straight (literal or figurative)

It's an adjective. Consider this if you can.

 

[hawkman]

The ministry of Lucifer was to guard/station at the throne of God on earth. This was BEFORE Adam and Eve. My guess is the throne was at what is now called Jerusalem. At any rate, Lucifer was himself created "sin-ful" or missing the mark of the glory of God which is why sin was found in him. Cherubs guard holy earthly things and seraphim guard holy heavenly things. No doubt Lucifer was jealous and envious and wanted to be 'like God.'

There is no Lucifer . There is a Satan . "Lucifer" in the KJV is a transliteration of the Latin .

Here is short explanation . https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....proper-name-of-satan-according-to-isaiah-1412

Much longer and deeper explanation . https://franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=218

The Later Human tradition is what caused "Lucifer" to become a proper noun referring to the Devil before his fall, which the Hebrew does not do.

 

[Free]

Dig in .

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lucifer+mistranslation&ia=web

It’s true. There is no such being in the Bible with the name Lucifer.

 

[jeremiah1five]

There is no Lucifer . There is a Satan . "Lucifer" in the KJV is a transliteration of the Latin .

Here is short explanation . https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....proper-name-of-satan-according-to-isaiah-1412

Much longer and deeper explanation . https://franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=218

The Later Human tradition is what caused "Lucifer" to become a proper noun referring to the Devil before his fall, which the Hebrew does not do.

Satan is an adjective. It means "adversary."
Besides Christians who disobey God are "adversary" [Satan, just like Peter].
The Satan is 'YOU!'

 

[hawkman]

Satan is an adjective. It means "adversary."
Besides Christians who disobey God are "adversary" [Satan, just like Peter].
The Satan is 'YOU!'

 

[Free]

There is no Lucifer . There is a Satan . "Lucifer" in the KJV is a transliteration of the Latin .

Here is short explanation . https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....proper-name-of-satan-according-to-isaiah-1412

Much longer and deeper explanation . https://franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=218

The Later Human tradition is what caused "Lucifer" to become a proper noun referring to the Devil before his fall, which the Hebrew does not do.

Ha. I didn't even see this post when I posted. This has been discussed here many times:

https://christianforums.net/threads/satan-you-mean-that-little-imp.17443/#post-257626

https://christianforums.net/threads/what-is-wrong-with-the-niv-bible.26725/page-5#post-401576

 

[hawkman]

Ha. I didn't even see this post when I posted. This has been discussed here many times:

https://christianforums.net/threads/satan-you-mean-that-little-imp.17443/#post-257626

https://christianforums.net/threads/what-is-wrong-with-the-niv-bible.26725/page-5#post-401576

I did search but did not find these threads , thanks Free !

 

[gordon777]

The mystery of Babylon, is the mystery of iniquity. ( 2 Thessalonians 2:7.)



Israel went forth into exile into Babylon, this is where Israel was delivered, and redeemed from the hand of their enemies. ( where they sold themselves into, for their iniquity.)







Isaiah 48:20 Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The Lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.


Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the Lord shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.








Paying attention, ( any would be good on this forum) of that mystery of Babylon.



Babylon falls ( God redeemed Israel from the hand of their enemies in Babylon, by the mystery of Christ.)



Babylon becomes ( in real life too, 2500 years ago) a habitation of wild birds, ( habitation of devils, every foul spirit, a cage of every unclean an hateful bird/angel)



All nations drink of the wrath of her fornication, and wax rich through her delicacies, and we are to come out of her, ( the mystery of Babylon/the mystery of iniquity, where Israel sold themselves for their iniquity.) to not be part taker of her sins and her plagues.



In one hour judgement comes upon Babylon, no man buys their merchandise any more, no gold, silver, precious stones, or animals, or chariots, or slaves, or souls of men. ( the souls of men, are Israel selling themselves for nothing, into Babylon, where all nations drank of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.)









Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.




Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.



Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

 

[Free]

The mystery of Babylon, is the mystery of iniquity. ( 2 Thessalonians 2:7.)



Israel went forth into exile into Babylon, this is where Israel was delivered, and redeemed from the hand of their enemies. ( where they sold themselves into, for their iniquity.)







Isaiah 48:20 Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The Lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.


Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the Lord shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.








Paying attention, ( any would be good on this forum) of that mystery of Babylon.



Babylon falls ( God redeemed Israel from the hand of their enemies in Babylon, by the mystery of Christ.)



Babylon becomes ( in real life too, 2500 years ago) a habitation of wild birds, ( habitation of devils, every foul spirit, a cage of every unclean an hateful bird/angel)



All nations drink of the wrath of her fornication, and wax rich through her delicacies, and we are to come out of her, ( the mystery of Babylon/the mystery of iniquity, where Israel sold themselves for their iniquity.) to not be part taker of her sins and her plagues.



In one hour judgement comes upon Babylon, no man buys their merchandise any more, no gold, silver, precious stones, or animals, or chariots, or slaves, or souls of men. ( the souls of men, are Israel selling themselves for nothing, into Babylon, where all nations drank of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.)









Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.




Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.



Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

I think you may have posted in the wrong thread.

 

[Highway54]

You believe God gave his creational creatures FREE WILL?
You believe God doesn't interfere with man or angels FEE WILL?

That's a lie and I'll prove it.

Let's say we're a few years down the road and I'm a father. I want to take my boy to the park and throw the ball around. That's my FREE WILL to do, right?

Then, before I exit my vehicle at the park parking lot I hear a TRUMPET! Then I see something in the clouds. It's Jesus Christ coming back a second time as promised!

Now everything is over. No throwing the ball around with my boy because the angels are sent to the winds to gather God's Elect.

I can't throw the ball around with my boy as was my FREE WILL to do!

God has actively INTERFERED with my FREE WILL and now we are performing HIS WILL.

C'mon, man, THINK!

At times He has had to take action sir for mans best interest, but for the most part He has given man the freedom of choice and action. Only a few times has He intervened.

 

[jeremiah1five]

At times He has had to take action sir for mans best interest, but for the most part He has given man the freedom of choice and action. Only a few times has He intervened.

Then man has no free will, he is not autonomous.
Your response is self-serving.
Christians are supposed to LET the Word of God tell them what to believe. Unbelievers instead tell the Word of God what to say.
Disappointed.

 

[Free]

Then man has no free will, he is not autonomous.

Is man truly autonomous? Does he truly have free will? Not really. Just something to think about. I won't discuss it here since there are other threads on this.

Your response is self-serving.
Christians are supposed to LET the Word of God tell them what to believe. Unbelievers instead tell the Word of God what to say.
Disappointed.

And, yet, every Christian tells the Word of God what to say at various points instead of letting it speak to them. It cannot be otherwise this side of heaven; we're all guilty of it.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Is man truly autonomous? Does he truly have free will? Not really. Just something to think about. I won't discuss it here since there are other threads on this.


And, yet, every Christian tells the Word of God what to say at various points instead of letting it speak to them. It cannot be otherwise this side of heaven; we're all guilty of it.

I'm not guilty of it.
Anymore.

 

[Free]

I'm not guilty of it.
Anymore.

Sure are. It is unavoidable. For example, you said:

"Satan is an adjective. It means "adversary."
Besides Christians who disobey God are "adversary" [Satan, just like Peter].
The Satan is 'YOU!'"

But Satan is a noun and is the name of a specific personal being, such as in the following verse:

Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, (ESV)

 

[eddif]

Ok here goes. Oh no not again.
Evil can be all the things y’all are talking about.

Here is a good concept as an example:
Concept
Attitude
Thought
Action
Person
Thing
More

Parable of Sower
Seed - Word of God
Sower - Son of God
Ground - Men’s hearts
Fruit - fruit of Spirit

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[jeremiah1five]

Sure are. It is unavoidable. For example, you said:

"Satan is an adjective. It means "adversary."
Besides Christians who disobey God are "adversary" [Satan, just like Peter].
The Satan is 'YOU!'"

But Satan is a noun and is the name of a specific personal being, such as in the following verse:

Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, (ESV)

Ah, the ESV. Modern-day new age translation taken from the Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus Greek texts that the Church rejected.

Lexham Bible Dictionary.
SATAN The Hebrew word שָׂטָן (satan) means to oppose, obstruct, or accuse. The Greek term (σατάν, satan) literally means “adversary.” In the New Testament, it refers to a title or a name—(the) Satan. The term שָׂטָן (satan) is rendered as diabolos in the Septuagint.

The Use of the Term “Satan” in the Hebrew Bible

In the Old Testament, the word satan is both a noun and a verb. When used as a verb, it means “to oppose as an adversary” (e.g., Pss 38:20; 71:13; 109:4, 20, 29; Zech 3:1). It is applied to a human adversary as a noun (e.g., 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kgs 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25). In four books of the Old Testament, the term is attached to a supernatural being (Num 22:22, 32; Job 1:6, 7, 8; Zech 3:1; 1 Chr 21:1).

The Term “Satan” Applied to a Human Adversary

The word “satan” occurs as a noun at various points in the Old Testament to designate a human opponent. It is translated in English Bibles as “adversary” or “enemy.” For example, King Solomon speaks of the opportunity he has to build a temple because of the absence of any “satan” or “adversary” to hinder him from this endeavor (1 Kgs 5:4). The term is also used by King David to speak of Abishai as an opponent or adversary (2 Sam 19:22).

As I said, the Satan is YOU.

And until our bodies are changed to become like the Lord's our flesh is adversary to God.

The term satan is a characteristic. Noun and verb. Also adjective.

 

[Free]

Ah, the ESV. Modern-day new age translation taken from the Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus Greek texts that the Church rejected.

It is superior to the KJV, as many modern translations are, but that has no relevance to this discussion.

Lexham Bible Dictionary.
SATAN The Hebrew word שָׂטָן (satan) means to oppose, obstruct, or accuse. The Greek term (σατάν, satan) literally means “adversary.” In the New Testament, it refers to a title or a name—(the) Satan. The term שָׂטָן (satan) is rendered as diabolos in the Septuagint.

That supports what I said. What a name literally means is irrelevant as to whether or not it is a noun and the name of a specific personal being. Names in the Bible always, or almost always, mean something specific.

The Use of the Term “Satan” in the Hebrew Bible

In the Old Testament, the word satan is both a noun and a verb. When used as a verb, it means “to oppose as an adversary” (e.g., Pss 38:20; 71:13; 109:4, 20, 29; Zech 3:1). It is applied to a human adversary as a noun (e.g., 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kgs 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25). In four books of the Old Testament, the term is attached to a supernatural being (Num 22:22, 32; Job 1:6, 7, 8; Zech 3:1; 1 Chr 21:1).

The Term “Satan” Applied to a Human Adversary

The word “satan” occurs as a noun at various points in the Old Testament to designate a human opponent. It is translated in English Bibles as “adversary” or “enemy.” For example, King Solomon speaks of the opportunity he has to build a temple because of the absence of any “satan” or “adversary” to hinder him from this endeavor (1 Kgs 5:4). The term is also used by King David to speak of Abishai as an opponent or adversary (2 Sam 19:22).

Okay. This also shows that it is used as a noun, a proper name, at least some of the time in the OT. But it is also not the only word translated as "adversary."

As I said, the Satan is YOU.

No, it isn't. This is you reading into the text.

And until our bodies are changed to become like the Lord's our flesh is adversary to God.

The term satan is a characteristic. Noun and verb. Also adjective.

In the NT, it applies only to a specific personal being, namely, Satan, who is the devil.

 

[jeremiah1five]

It is superior to the KJV, as many modern translations are, but that has no relevance to this discussion.


That supports what I said. What a name literally means is irrelevant as to whether or not it is a noun and the name of a specific personal being. Names in the Bible always, or almost always, mean something specific.


Okay. This also shows that it is used as a noun, a proper name, at least some of the time in the OT. But it is also not the only word translated as "adversary."


No, it isn't. This is you reading into the text.


In the NT, it applies only to a specific personal being, namely, Satan, who is the devil.

You don't think using a translation that used corrupt Greek texts has no relevance to discovering the knowledge of the truth of Scripture?

You don't think understanding words of Scripture in the original language has no relevance to understanding the knowledge of the truth of Scripture?

QUOTE: Okay. This also shows that it is used as a noun, a proper name, at least some of the time in the OT. But it is also not the only word translated as "adversary."
RESPONSE: Well, that's a start.

You use a translation which used corrupt Greek texts, you think words are not relevant to understand Scripture and you think I'm reading into the text???