Luke 16:19-31 - Prophecy or No

[Guest]

I believe this was not only a parable but a prophecy told by Jesus about the afterlife.
Notice the words died, buried, Hell, torment, flame and Abraham’s bosom.

Luke 16:19-31

 

[John 8:32]

I believe this was not only a parable but a prophecy told by Jesus about the afterlife.
Notice the words died, buried, Hell, torment, flame and Abraham’s bosom.

Luke 16:19-31

I don't.

 

[P31Woman]

I believe "Abraham’s side" was the same place as paradise that Jesus talked about with the man on the cross next to him. I believe this went away after the resurrection and those in Paradise are now in heaven.

 

[Guest]

The definition of a prophecy is foretelling what is to come. Since Luke 16 specifically mentions the begger and the rich man dying, then that's that. It's a prophecy. For example, take every dead person lying down in their graves right now waiting for judgement. Either they are written in the book of life or not. Jesus could of been talking about any lesson, but Luke 16 is talking about God vs money.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The definition of a prophecy is foretelling what is to come. Since Luke 16 specifically mentions the begger and the rich man dying, then that's that. It's a prophecy. For example, take every dead person lying down in their graves right now waiting for judgement. Either they are written in the book of life or not. Jesus could of been talking about any lesson, but Luke 16 is talking about God vs money.

Urk, why does the rich man ask Abraham to be sent to his 5 brothers? If this is truly a foretelling of the final judgement, why did he still have brothers who were living that needed to be warned about coming to join him in Hades?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I believe that the decision should be parable or historic event(because of naming Lazarus and including Abraham), with prophecy being easily tossed out the window.

 

[Guest]

Urk, why does the rich man ask Abraham to be sent to his 5 brothers? If this is truly a foretelling of the final judgement, why did he still have brothers who were living that needed to be warned about coming to join him in Hades?

Because he didn't want his brothers in hell, isn't that obvious. His brothers weren't saved yet. The rich man isn't asking to send himself, he's asking Lazarus. Notice in Luke 16:27 says that thou wouldest send him. Who is him? Lazarus. Also notice in Luke 16:24 the rich man is asking Lazarus for mercy again.

 

[Free]

The definition of a prophecy is foretelling what is to come. Since Luke 16 specifically mentions the begger and the rich man dying, then that's that. It's a prophecy. For example, take every dead person lying down in their graves right now waiting for judgement. Either they are written in the book of life or not. Jesus could of been talking about any lesson, but Luke 16 is talking about God vs money.

Despite my better judgement, I'm going to give this another try, urk. From your post #52 is the following statement:

"You cannot choose your fate after you die, we ALL make the choice to come to Christ in this lifetime ONLY!! Once you die, that's it, you're waiting for judgement and whether you are in the book of life or not!"

You have also been very clear that Luke 16:22-31 is Jesus speaking prophecy about what happens after Judgement Day. From post #49:

"It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged."

So let's put some things together in syllogistic form:

P1 If people have a choice to come to Christ, they can be warned.
P2 At least one person can be warned (Luke 16:27-31).
C1 Therefore, at least one person has a choice to come to Christ.
P3 After the final judgement, people will not have the choice to come to Christ.
C2 Therefore, based on C1 and P3, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.

Or:

P4 After the final judgement, all people will be in either heaven or hell.
P5 At least one person is not in either heaven or hell (Luke 16:27-31).
C3 Therefore, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.

Someone else might be able to put together better syllogistic arguments, but do you agree with my conclusions? Why or why not? Is there a premise that you disagree with?

There is also more that could be said about the fact that neither the rich man nor Lazarus are resurrected prior to being found in Hades and Abraham's bosom. They died and were buried but not resurrected. For the purposes of the final judgement, all the dead, righteous and unrighteous are first resurrected.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Because he didn't want his brothers in hell, isn't that obvious. His brothers weren't saved yet. The rich man isn't asking to send himself, he's asking Lazarus. Notice in Luke 16:27 says that thou wouldest send him. Who is him? Lazarus. Also notice in Luke 16:24 the rich man is asking Lazarus for mercy again.

Is the final judgement progressive? How can the Rich man be in the final place of judgement.. and yet others who "aren't saved" are still alive.

If this was a prophecy then the brothers would have already been judged along with him.

Urk... honestly.. how are you not seeing this. Are you interested in the truth, or in being right?

 

[Guest]

Despite my better judgement, I'm going to give this another try, urk. From your post #52 is the following statement:

"You cannot choose your fate after you die, we ALL make the choice to come to Christ in this lifetime ONLY!! Once you die, that's it, you're waiting for judgement and whether you are in the book of life or not!"

You have also been very clear that Luke 16:22-31 is Jesus speaking prophecy about what happens after Judgement Day. From post #49:

"It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged."

So let's put some things together in syllogistic form:

P1 If people have a choice to come to Christ, they can be warned.
P2 At least one person can be warned (Luke 16:27-31).
C1 Therefore, at least one person has a choice to come to Christ.
P3 After the final judgement, people will not have the choice to come to Christ.
C2 Therefore, based on C1 and P3, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.

Yes, they can be warned. Teachers and preachers all over the world are preaching the gospel as we speak, but are sinners listening? no!! That's the lesson in Luke 16:31. No, after people die they will NOT have the choice to come to Christ. You are only judged on what you do in this lifetime.

Or:

P4 After the final judgement, all people will be in either heaven or hell.
P5 At least one person is not in either heaven or hell (Luke 16:27-31).
C3 Therefore, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.

Someone else might be able to put together better syllogistic arguments, but do you agree with my conclusions? Why or why not? Is there a premise that you disagree with?

There is also more that could be said about the fact that neither the rich man nor Lazarus are resurrected prior to being found in Hades and Abraham's bosom. They died and were buried but not resurrected. For the purposes of the final judgement, all the dead, righteous and unrighteous are first resurrected.

Yes, after the final judgement, they will be either in heaven or hell. Final judgement judges ALL of humanity. Yes, they were resurrected, into Hades and Abraham’s bosom. The final judgement had already occurred for these two men. That's why Jesus is speaking prophecy. Other chapters in the Bible clearly state where the righteous and unrighteous go after judgement day. At least these are my thoughts.

 

[Guest]

Because he didn't want his brothers in hell, isn't that obvious. His brothers weren't saved yet. The rich man isn't asking to send himself, he's asking Lazarus. Notice in Luke 16:27 says that thou wouldest send him. Who is him? Lazarus. Also notice in Luke 16:24 the rich man is asking Lazarus for mercy again.

Is the final judgement progressive? How can the Rich man be in the final place of judgement.. and yet others who "aren't saved" are still alive.

If this was a prophecy then the brothers would have already been judged along with him.

Urk... honestly.. how are you not seeing this. Are you interested in the truth, or in being right?

No Doulos, the five brothers are still alive on earth, so it's not too late for them. That's exactly what I'm saying!! There are millions still alive on earth who aren't saved. Think PAST the characters in the parable, and study the lesson that is taught here. Either you're written in the book of life or you're not. Whether the five brothers are judged or not is not the point. REPENTING is the point.

 

[Free]

Despite my better judgement, I'm going to give this another try, urk. From your post #52 is the following statement:

"You cannot choose your fate after you die, we ALL make the choice to come to Christ in this lifetime ONLY!! Once you die, that's it, you're waiting for judgement and whether you are in the book of life or not!"

You have also been very clear that Luke 16:22-31 is Jesus speaking prophecy about what happens after Judgement Day. From post #49:

"It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged."

So let's put some things together in syllogistic form:

P1 If people have a choice to come to Christ, they can be warned.
P2 At least one person can be warned (Luke 16:27-31).
C1 Therefore, at least one person has a choice to come to Christ.
P3 After the final judgement, people will not have the choice to come to Christ.
C2 Therefore, based on C1 and P3, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.

Yes, they can be warned. Teachers and preachers all over the world are preaching the gospel as we speak, but are sinners listening? no!! That's the lesson in Luke 16:31. No, after people die they will NOT have the choice to come to Christ. You are only judged on what you do in this lifetime.

Or:

P4 After the final judgement, all people will be in either heaven or hell.
P5 At least one person is not in either heaven or hell (Luke 16:27-31).
C3 Therefore, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.

Someone else might be able to put together better syllogistic arguments, but do you agree with my conclusions? Why or why not? Is there a premise that you disagree with?

There is also more that could be said about the fact that neither the rich man nor Lazarus are resurrected prior to being found in Hades and Abraham's bosom. They died and were buried but not resurrected. For the purposes of the final judgement, all the dead, righteous and unrighteous are first resurrected.

Yes, after the final judgement, they will be either in heaven or hell. Final judgement judges ALL of humanity. Yes, they were resurrected, into Hades and Abraham’s bosom. The final judgement had already occurred for these two men. That's why Jesus is speaking prophecy. Other chapters in the Bible clearly state where the righteous and unrighteous go after judgement day. At least these are my thoughts.

I laid it out specifically in syllogistic form so that you can point out precisely where I am wrong--P1, P2, C1, etc. Can you please show me which premises and/or conclusions you disagree with.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

No Doulos, the five brothers are still alive on earth, so it's not too late for them. That's exactly what I'm saying!! There are millions still alive on earth who aren't saved. Think PAST the characters in the parable, and study the lesson that is taught here. Either you're written in the book of life or you're not. Whether the five brothers are judged or not is not the point. REPENTING is the point.

Okay I'm leaving you with these remarks, and then we're done discussing.. perhaps for good.

1. You're either willfully ignoring what you know about the final judgement, or your simply ignorant. Please read Matthew 25 and Revelation 20.
2. To be frank with you.. you're simply unreasonable. You've held so rigidly on to this dogma that you're beyond the point of reason, that's why everyone is losing their patience discussing with you on this matter. It doesn't appear you have a desire for truth, but continue to offer the same argument and ignore the same refutations over and over again.

Have a good one..

 

[Guest]

Free, I already told you in my post. Did you read it? Doulos, you're the one that's being ignorant to what Jesus is saying. Do you believe Jesus speaks prophecies? Frank from the coffee shop isn't who is speaking in Luke 16, it's JESUS! Notice Luke 17 speaks about trespassing, repentance and faith! JESUS JESUS JESUS. WHO IS JESUS!

P1 If people have a choice to come to Christ, they can be warned.
P2 At least one person can be warned (Luke 16:27-31).
C1 Therefore, at least one person has a choice to come to Christ.
P3 After the final judgement, people will not have the choice to come to Christ.
C2 Therefore, based on C1 and P3, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.
P4 After the final judgement, all people will be in either heaven or hell.
P5 At least one person is not in either heaven or hell (Luke 16:27-31).
C3 Therefore, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.

P1 - Yes they can be warned from preachers and teachers on earth
P2 - ALL people can be warned, but it's up to people to listen
C1 - ALL people have a choice to come to christ on this earth, while they are breathing
P3 - AFTER people die, they are unable to repent
P4 - Correct
P5 - ALL PEOPLE - UNRIGHTEOUS VS RIGHTEOUS will be in heaven or hell
C3 - Luke 16:27-31 is speaking about after judgement. Definition of prophecy

 

[Free]

Free, I already told you in my post. Did you read it? Doulos, you're the one that's being ignorant to what Jesus is saying. Do you believe Jesus speaks prophecies? Frank from the coffee shop isn't who is speaking in Luke 16, it's JESUS! Notice Luke 17 speaks about trespassing, repentance and faith! JESUS JESUS JESUS. WHO IS JESUS!

P1 If people have a choice to come to Christ, they can be warned.
P2 At least one person can be warned (Luke 16:27-31).
C1 Therefore, at least one person has a choice to come to Christ.
P3 After the final judgement, people will not have the choice to come to Christ.
C2 Therefore, based on C1 and P3, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.
P4 After the final judgement, all people will be in either heaven or hell.
P5 At least one person is not in either heaven or hell (Luke 16:27-31).
C3 Therefore, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.

P1 - Yes they can be warned from preachers and teachers on earth
P2 - ALL people can be warned, but it's up to people to listen
C1 - ALL people have a choice to come to christ on this earth, while they are breathing
P3 - AFTER people die, they are unable to repent
P4 - Correct
P5 - ALL PEOPLE - UNRIGHTEOUS VS RIGHTEOUS will be in heaven or hell
C3 - Luke 16:27-31 is speaking about after judgement. Definition of prophecy

Remember, what is in question here is Luke 16:27-31 and your adamant belief that this occurred after the day of judgement. The only day of judgement, whether dead or alive, is at the Great White Throne judgement in Revelation 20, as has been alluded to. It is only then that people are judged and either enter heaven or get thrown into the lake of fire, not before.

Despite your inappropriate rewording of the premises and conclusions, I gather you are in agreement with P1 and P2, which means that C1 is good. I am not sure if you agree with P3 as you have altered the wording to remove the reference to "final judgement," and you didn't address C2.

You then agree with P4 and seem to agree with P5 and then ignore the logical conclusion, C3, of those two premises and instead contradict them by stating that "Luke 16:27-31 is speaking about after judgement."

You really need to clarify whether or not Luke 16:27-31 is speaking of the final, and only, judgement found in Revelation 20.

 

[Guest]

All I'm asking for is clarity so we can clear things up. Which premises and/or conclusions specifically am I wrong about?

Well that depends, what is your argument.

 

[P31Woman]

Free,
what is your agrument? :silly

I cannot stop laughing!

 

[Guest]

1. The begger and the rich man have died. DIED!!
2. The begger is inside vision/Abrahams bosom/Vision of Heaven
3. The rich man is inside vision/Hades/Vision of Hell

These are visions spoken from Jesus, THE HEART OF JESUS! Since people cannot repent after death, this is clearly a prophecy of where the rich man and the begger are headed!! The begger accepted Jesus into his heart on earth when he was still alive, the rich man did not. Do we understand now?

 

[Free]

1. The begger and the rich man have died. DIED!!

Yes, people die all the time and have done so since the beginning.

2. The begger is inside vision/Abrahams bosom/Vision of Heaven

Probably not heaven but paradise. A relatively small point to not get hung up on at this time.

3. The rich man is inside vision/Hades/Vision of Hell

No. As has been pointed out numerous times, Hades is the grave, not Hell. It has been asked of you by two of us to actually do study on the Greek words hades and gehenna, and see how they are used. I also have added that in doing so, you should post what you find out.


Oh, and please see my now finished response at the end of the previous page.

 

[Free]

Free,
what is your agrument? :silly

I cannot stop laughing!

At least one of us is amused by all this. ;)