Bible Study Luke 23:43 & John 20:17

[Asyncritus]

I'm not sure about this SBG.

If you had found another place where He said: 'Verily I say unto you today', and where the comma HAS to come AFTER the 'today', then you would have quite a serious point.

As it stands, it doesn't look that way at all

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

This is a very interesting and important question.

Jesus was in hell that day (So Acts 2.31: He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.).

If paradise is heaven, then it moved its location to hell that day, and back again 3 days later!

Which is an odd thought, isn't it?

Hell should be translated Hades which can simply mean the grave. I personally feel paradise has always been in Heaven. It just seems strange to me that paradise would be a compartment in Hades

So when Jesus said "Father into your hands I commit my spirit" I believe he went to heaven/paradise and that was where the thief was. I believe it was his body that had not yet ascended. Some will say that people in the Old Testament couldn't go to Heaven, but what about Enoch and Elijah?

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

I'm not sure about this SBG.

If you had found another place where He said: 'Verily I say unto you today', and where the comma HAS to come AFTER the 'today', then you would have quite a serious point.

As it stands, it doesn't look that way at all

Its possible that the comma should go after "today". In all fairness it was an Hebraism to speak that way whenever making a solemn announcement.

Deut 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

Deut 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

It just seems that the majority who want to adjust the comma do so in order to preserve the doctrine of Soul Sleep or for some other reason.

Here is what John Gill says on the matter

"Some would remove the stop, and place it after "today", and read the words thus, "I say unto thee today"; as if Christ only signified the time when he said this, and not when the thief should be with him in paradise; which, besides it being senseless, and impertinent, and only contrived to serve an hypothesis, is not agreeably to Christ's usual way of speaking, and contrary to all copies and versions. Moreover, in one of Beza's exemplars it is read, "I say unto thee, οτι σημερον that today thou shalt be with me", c. and so the Persic and Ethiopic versions seem to read, which destroys this silly criticism. And because this was a matter of great importance, and an instance of amazing grace, that so vile a sinner, one of the chief of sinners, should immediately enter into the kingdom of God, and enjoy uninterrupted, and everlasting communion with him and that it might not be a matter of doubt with him, or others, Christ, who is the "Amen", the faithful witness, and truth itself, prefaces it after this manner: "verily I say unto thee" it is truth, it may be depended on. This instance of grace stands on record, not to cherish sloth, indolence, security and presumption, but to encourage faith and hope in sensible sinners, in their last moments, and prevent despair. The Papists pretend to know this man's name; they say his name was Disma; and reckon him as a martyr, and have put him in the catalogue of saints, and fixed him on the "twenty fifth" of March."

 

[JLB]

Nothing new here, but I thought it was worth bringing up for discussion. Taking a look at the account of the thief on the cross:

Luke 23:43
"Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.â€"

But, in John, three days after He Spoke those words:

John 20:17
"Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’â€

I'm looking for discussion on this, not debate, and not a side bar debate on the immediate presence with the Lord upon our deaths. In the end, this appears to be something that we can disagree on after much consideration and not impact our Salvation. I've heard it described as falling asleep and waking up in another place. It feels like a moment elapsed. It could have been a moment or much longer, but it's all the same to the person who was asleep.

But back to topic, I'm hoping to see some of your thoughts as to how these two verse are in harmony with each other.

It'll probably be a slow day, though. Happy Easter

Paradise was in the heart of the earth, also called Abraham's bosom.

Paradise or Abraham's bosom is where the old testament saints were "preserved alive till faith"... be revealed.

Heaven, on the other hand is were God the Father is, where His throne is.

Paul refers to it as "captivity" in Ephesians.

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:8-10

Until that time no one had seen God the Father.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18


People in the old testament who saw God, were seeing God the Son, or the Son of God. The Lord YHWH.


JLB

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

Paradise was in the heart of the earth, also called Abraham's bosom.

Paradise or Abraham's bosom is where the old testament saints were "preserved alive till faith"... be revealed.

Heaven, on the other hand is were God the Father is, where His throne is.

Paul refers to it as "captivity" in Ephesians.

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:8-10

Until that time no one had seen God the Father.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18


People in the old testament who saw God, were seeing God the Son, or the Son of God. The Lord YHWH.


JLB

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

"Lower parts of the earth" can simply refer to a mothers womb. I believe it is talking about the incarnation of Jesus

In Psalms 139:15 David is referring to when he "was made secret" in his mothers womb

"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."

And leading "captivity captive" is a quote from psalms 68:18 and I believe it refers to the triumph of Jesus over his enemies.

Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Moses didn't seem confined in the heart of the earth when he appeared on the mount of transfiguration or Elijah for that matter.

Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Did Elijah go to the heart of the earth?

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

[JLB]

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

"Lower parts of the earth" can simply refer to a mothers womb. I believe it is talking about the incarnation of Jesus

In Psalms 139:15 David is referring to when he "was made secret" in his mothers womb

"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."

And leading "captivity captive" is a quote from psalms 68:18 and I believe it refers to the triumph of Jesus over his enemies.

Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Moses didn't seem confined in the heart of the earth when he appeared on the mount of transfiguration or Elijah for that matter.

Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Did Elijah go to the heart of the earth?

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Or Enoch?

And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Did Enoch or Elijah die? No.

Does the scripture say Enoch or Elijah saw God the Father? No.

These two men did not die.

We don't know exactly where they went.

We don't know all the details of what happens to someone who is taken alive into the Spirit realm.

We do know what the word reveals.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

and again -

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. John 3:13



19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and youthere is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' Luke 16:19-26

Moses didn't seem confined in the heart of the earth when he appeared on the mount of transfiguration or Elijah for that matter.

I didn't say they were confined...

The righteous sons of God have liberty that those in hell do not.

If God chose to have Moses and Elijah appear on the mount of Transfiguration with The Lord, that's His will.


IMO, Moses who went up on Mount Sinai and asked to see the Lord, was with Him and we were seeing that event, [which being in the Spirit is not subject to time as we know it], from the perspective of the Mount of transfiguration.

Consider Samuel and the witch of Endor -

13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" 1 Samuel 28: 13-15


JLB

 

[eddif]

Paradise was in the heart of the earth, also called Abraham's bosom.

Paradise or Abraham's bosom is where the old testament saints were "preserved alive till faith"... be revealed.

Heaven, on the other hand is were God the Father is, where His throne is.

Paul refers to it as "captivity" in Ephesians.

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:8-10

Until that time no one had seen God the Father.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18


People in the old testament who saw God, were seeing God the Son, or the Son of God. The Lord YHWH.


JLB

Well here I am again ---you know the strange thinking fellow. I know I must sound out to lunch at times.

Romans 1:19-20
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from
the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so

My comment is about Abraham's bosom.

The human heart, Abraham's heart too, had a natural pacemaker. There is nothing really spiritual about a natural pacemaker. The natural pacemaker does direct the flow of oxygen, nutrients etc to their needed area. The Bible, however, does not stop talking about the heart (a lot of times in a negative way). I could place a pacemaker picture on the wall, have a big gold natural pacemaker necklace made, tatoo one on my forehead and not be a bit better off. The natural pacemaker looks like a crucified man: bones out of joint, roots for fingers and toes (nail effects), nerve network sticking out of stomach area (bowels of compassion), etc. Since the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful it needs the crucified Jesus.

No matter what the names or symbols it is the care of God that brings about the end result. The pacemaker causes the heart to beat. Jesus in our figurative heart changes our lives (word become flesh abides in us). Jesus commended his spirit to God to be raised from the dead (some scriptures go with the father, some with the spirit, and even one says Jesus himself did it---I do not want to argue about all that).

Thank God the man on the cross changed his mind, and one day will see eternity. I just happen to be a Mississippi nut that sees God created human anatomy as a way that God teaches us what is going on. He directs the flow of everything (in this case he moves the man where he needs to be). Let us commit our lives into his hand in faith.

Ready for my next beating.
eddif

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

Or Enoch?

And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Did Enoch or Elijah die? No.

Does the scripture say Enoch or Elijah saw God the Father? No.

These two men did not die.

We don't know exactly where they went.

We don't know all the details of what happens to someone who is taken alive into the Spirit realm.

We do know what the word reveals.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

and again -

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. John 3:13



19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and youthere is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' Luke 16:19-26



I didn't say they were confined...

The righteous sons of God have liberty that those in hell do not.

If God chose to have Moses and Elijah appear on the mount of Transfiguration with The Lord, that's His will.


IMO, Moses who went up on Mount Sinai and asked to see the Lord, was with Him and we were seeing that event, [which being in the Spirit is not subject to time as we know it], from the perspective of the Mount of transfiguration.

Consider Samuel and the witch of Endor -

13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" 1 Samuel 28: 13-15


JLB

Luke 16 is a parable and I don't think we can take it in a strict literal sense. Do people literally go into the bosom of Abraham when they die? How many people can he fit in his bosom? The rich man wanted water to cool his tongue? Is there literally H2O in the afterlife? Do disembodied spirits have a "tongue" and a "finger". Where did people go that died before Abraham lived? The idea of Hades being split into two compartments, one side being called Abrahams bosom, is a rabbinical tradition. I see no where in scripture where it talks about "paradise" being transferred from hades to heaven. I dont feel that is what is being described in Ephesians.

I think John 3:13 is better understood in connection with verse 12.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I believe Jesus was saying no man has gone to heaven and received knowledge of heavenly things and then comeback down to earth to tell us about it.

Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

 

[Asyncritus]

Paradise was in the heart of the earth, also called Abraham's bosom.

You gotta be joking!!!!

Paradise or Abraham's bosom is where the old testament saints were "preserved alive till faith"... be revealed.

You still gotta be joking!!!

Heaven, on the other hand is were God the Father is, where His throne is.

Well. hallelujah! You got that right!

Paul refers to it as "captivity" in Ephesians.

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:8-10

Yeah, so...?

The lower parts of the earth = the grave, JLB.

Until that time no one had seen God the Father.

People in the old testament who saw God, were seeing God the Son, or the Son of God. The Lord YHWH.

No, they were seeing His angelic Representatives, such as Michael and Gabriel.

As Exodus says clearly:

3.2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Stephen agrees:

Acts 7.30 ¶ And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.

31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,
32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Who was saying this? Answer: The Angel of the Lord, His great Representative, in whom was God's Name:

20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

I hope you get the hang of this now.

 

[eddif]

Parables conceal spiritual truths by using strict literal creation to hide wisdom. These physical literal things can be: weather, weather elements, water cycle, animals, people by name, seeds and growth,etc.
Sometimes we are distracted by strict literal creation, and we miss an open statement (From God ), like the comments about the Gulf (IMHO) just outrightly, though right in the middle of the parable.

While we try and unwind the parable we miss spiritual reality statemenrts. (Spiritual reality statements should not be open to modification by us)

eddif

 

[JLB]

Luke 16 is a parable and I don't think we can take it in a strict literal sense. Do people literally go into the bosom of Abraham when they die? How many people can he fit in his bosom? The rich man wanted water to cool his tongue? Is there literally H2O in the afterlife? Do disembodied spirits have a "tongue" and a "finger". Where did people go that died before Abraham lived? The idea of Hades being split into two compartments, one side being called Abrahams bosom, is a rabbinical tradition. I see no where in scripture where it talks about "paradise" being transferred from hades to heaven. I dont feel that is what is being described in Ephesians.

I think John 3:13 is better understood in connection with verse 12.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I believe Jesus was saying no man has gone to heaven and received knowledge of heavenly things and then comeback down to earth to tell us about it.

Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

A parable does not use names.

A parable uses things such as wheat or tares that describes people, to paint a picture of a certain truth.

Abraham's bosom was a real place in the heart of the earth where the old testament saints were preserved until Christ Jesus came down and preached to them. They were looking forward to Christ, we look back to Him.

No one comes to the Father except by Him!

It was named after Abraham, because the Lord made covenant with him.

Examine the context of scripture -

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

No parable here.

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

No parable here either!

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

No parable here!


So how in the world do you just assume to jump into a parable here!


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Sorry you are wrong.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

The very fact that Christians can read Luke 16:19-31 and come to different conclusions about its meaning confirms that the passage is a parable. Even the name 'Lazarus' has a parabolic quality.

 

[JLB]

The very fact that Christians can read Luke 16:19-31 and come to different conclusions about its meaning confirms that the passage is a parable. Even the name 'Lazarus' has a parabolic quality.

As well as Moses and Abraham?

Sorry. No parable.

 

[Osgiliath]

As well as Moses and Abraham?

Sorry. No parable.

Ahh, you disappoint me JLB. I thought for sure you were at least beyond the frightening, childish, Sunday School tales which say that Lazarus And The Rich Man is not a parable.


Jesus ALWAYS spoke to the multitudes and the Pharisees in parables. This alone proves Lazarus And The Rich Man is a parable:

Mark 12:1 "And He begins to speak to them in parables."



Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables ONLY:

Matthew 13:34 "All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the multitudes, and apart from a parable He spoke NOTHING to them..."

As the verse above tells us, EVERYTHING that was spoken to the multitudes was done so in parables: "apart from A PARABLE He spoke NOTHING to them."



Jesus spoke in parables so that his listeners would NOT understand Him:

Matthew 13:10-11 "Wherefore art Thou speaking in parables to them? ... To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has NOT been given."


Not even the apostles understood these parables (Luke 16:14). Jesus had to explain their meaning to them in private (Matthew 13:18, 36; Matthew 15:15), etc.


The fact that Jesus spoke to the masses in parables ONLY, ought to be sufficient Scriptural evidence to anyone that Lazarus And The Rich Man is indeed a parable. There are, however, many many more proofs I would be happy to thoroughly and Biblically explain if this clear evidence does not suffice.

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

I believe Jesus was using a rabbinical tradition to illustrate a point. I don't believe he was necessarily giving a doctrinal statement concerning the intermediate state.

Here is my opinion as to what the parable meant.

I believe the rich man represented the Jews and Lazarus represented the Gentiles. The Jews believed they would make it to Heaven just by simply being the seed of Abraham. Notice the rich man calls Abraham "father" and Abraham calls the rich man "son". I think Jesus was dispelling that idea. Notice that Lazarus was eating the crumbs from the rich mans table "And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores." Which reminds me of an encounter Jesus had with a Gentile woman in Matthew 7, "The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs." Then we notice how the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus from the dead to warn his brothers about the place he was in and Abraham said "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." This is true because Jesus has risen from the dead, but other than the remnant, the Jews have not believed even to this day.

 

[Mike]

Just a reminder that we are not in the A&T Forum here. This was set up in the Bible Study Forum to avoid arguments. Please treat this like a Bible study in your homes, and be respectful in your differing positions.

Thank you.

 

[JLB]

Ahh, you disappoint me JLB. I thought for sure you were at least beyond the frightening, childish, Sunday School tales which say that Lazarus And The Rich Man is not a parable.


Jesus ALWAYS spoke to the multitudes and the Pharisees in parables. This alone proves Lazarus And The Rich Man is a parable:

Mark 12:1 "And He begins to speak to them in parables."



Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables ONLY:

Matthew 13:34 "All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the multitudes, and apart from a parable He spoke NOTHING to them..."

As the verse above tells us, EVERYTHING that was spoken to the multitudes was done so in parables: "apart from A PARABLE He spoke NOTHING to them."



Jesus spoke in parables so that his listeners would NOT understand Him:

Matthew 13:10-11 "Wherefore art Thou speaking in parables to them? ... To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has NOT been given."


Not even the apostles understood these parables (Luke 16:14). Jesus had to explain their meaning to them in private (Matthew 13:18, 36; Matthew 15:15), etc.


The fact that Jesus spoke to the masses in parables ONLY, ought to be sufficient Scriptural evidence to anyone that Lazarus And The Rich Man is indeed a parable. There are, however, many many more proofs I would be happy to thoroughly and Biblically explain if this clear evidence does not suffice.

Maybe you had trouble reading my post. I will post it again for you.

Examine the context of scripture -

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

No parable here.

Jesus addresses the Pharisee's directly after they "OVERHEARD" Jesus speaking to His disciples. He does not speak in a parable!

[He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods. Luke 16:1]

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

No parable here either!

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

No parable here!


So how in the world do you just assume to jump into a parable here!


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

There is no parable in Luke 16!

Show a parable! Show an explanation of a parable!


Abraham's bosom was a real place in the heart of the earth where the old testament saints were preserved until Christ Jesus came down and preached to them. They were looking forward to Christ, we look back to Him.

It would be ridiculous to assume that an actual conversation between a man named Abraham and a man in hell, that was spoken of by Jesus Christ and recorded by Luke, could be considered a parable!


JLB

 

[eddif]

We be done got offen der Luke 23:43 and John 20:17.

We might take the parables discussion here. Old Thread.
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=6655&highlight=eddif

Regretfully I am making a few mistakes in keeping the parables seperated from the strickly disciples audience, but hopefully I get there. We are in a special OVERHEARD situation.

eddif

 

[JCitoL]

Nothing new here, but I thought it was worth bringing up for discussion. Taking a look at the account of the thief on the cross:

Luke 23:43
"Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”"

But, in John, three days after He Spoke those words:

John 20:17
"Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

I'm looking for discussion on this, not debate, and not a side bar debate on the immediate presence with the Lord upon our deaths. In the end, this appears to be something that we can disagree on after much consideration and not impact our Salvation. I've heard it described as falling asleep and waking up in another place. It feels like a moment elapsed. It could have been a moment or much longer, but it's all the same to the person who was asleep.

But back to topic, I'm hoping to see some of your thoughts as to how these two verse are in harmony with each other.

It'll probably be a slow day, though. Happy Easter

the paradise is in the Heaven and on the Earth, while God the Father sits (up-)on the Heaven i.e. the place where God sits is beyond the Heaven, and He is the only Who has complete entrance there on the top of the universe, so the hierarchical structure of Heavenly Kingdom is:

1. God the Father and His special place on the top of the universe - a.k.a. His "Throne"

2. the Ministry where the true Saints are/sit - a.k.a. "the Kingdom of God"

3. the Paradise where reigns only peace - a.k.a. "the Kingdom of Heaven"

the highest place where a human could reach/go is the Ministry where the true Saints are/sit a.k.a. "the Kingdom of God", but there is no access for any human to the "Throne of God" - only He and Jesus can abide/reside there

Blessings

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

Maybe you had trouble reading my post. I will post it again for you.

Examine the context of scripture -

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

No parable here.

Jesus addresses the Pharisee's directly after they "OVERHEARD" Jesus speaking to His disciples. He does not speak in a parable!

[He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods. Luke 16:1]

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

No parable here either!

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

No parable here!


So how in the world do you just assume to jump into a parable here!


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

There is no parable in Luke 16!

Show a parable! Show an explanation of a parable!


Abraham's bosom was a real place in the heart of the earth where the old testament saints were preserved until Christ Jesus came down and preached to them. They were looking forward to Christ, we look back to Him.

It would be ridiculous to assume that an actual conversation between a man named Abraham and a man in hell, that was spoken of by Jesus Christ and recorded by Luke, could be considered a parable!


JLB

First of all, I want to say that I respect your position and it is a position held by many. However, where did this idea of Paradise/Abraham's bosom being in Hades come from? You wont find it written in the Old Testament and this was believed by some of the Jews before the birth of Christ. It was a rabbinical tradition, and you will see alluded to in the Talmud. I believe Jesus was using their tradition to illustrate a point, and if we get technical about it, the parable never explicitly states that Abraham's bosom was in Hades, only that the rich man "seeth Abraham afar off".