Bible Study Luke 23:43 & John 20:17

[eddif]

Blow me away.

I am so used to the King James and the doctrine it can create (I have trouble with myself) that I just read something I never heard before.

KJV John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not;for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethern, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.
? John 20:17
"Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’â€

I always wondered the timeline on on Jesus ascending to the Father--So I could know when he could be touched.

Now all of a sudden our modern expressions take over reading the OP translation
Just let him go. You were probably not meant to be together (kind of secular LOL).
Just let it go. All you are going to do is upset yourself worrying about that.

Since Thomas could touch him it could be possibly this:
Jesus was just saying: Don't stand here clinging to me here, I have to be about going on with my Fathers work. (do not cling to me, go tell the disciples....)

I might need to consider another translation after all. This would allow it not be about the touch but him getting on to heaven where he could interceede for us.

Did anyone already say this?

eddif

 

[eddif]

I don't see them in conflict at all. In Luke 23:43 Jesus is saying they will both be dead that day, but not to worry. In John 20:17 we see Jesus telling Mary that His resurrection is not complete without His ascension. Why? See John 16:7-12

I knew it. I should have caught it. It just expanded some.

eddif

 

[Osgiliath]

Maybe you had trouble reading my post. I will post it again for you.

Examine the context of scripture -

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

No parable here.

Jesus addresses the Pharisee's directly after they "OVERHEARD" Jesus speaking to His disciples. He does not speak in a parable!

[He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods. Luke 16:1]

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

No parable here either!

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

No parable here!


So how in the world do you just assume to jump into a parable here!


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

There is no parable in Luke 16!

Show a parable! Show an explanation of a parable!


Abraham's bosom was a real place in the heart of the earth where the old testament saints were preserved until Christ Jesus came down and preached to them. They were looking forward to Christ, we look back to Him.

It would be ridiculous to assume that an actual conversation between a man named Abraham and a man in hell, that was spoken of by Jesus Christ and recorded by Luke, could be considered a parable!


JLB

What is the setting of this Lazarus parable JLB? Actually it is the last of a five-part parable beginning in Chapter 15 of Luke. Here is the reason for these five parables in a row:

Luke 15:1-2 "Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, 'This Man receives sinners and eats with them.'"

Verse 2:

"Now He told them [the tax collectors, sinners, Pharisees, and scribes] THIS PARABLE, saying..."

Jesus then gives them FIVE parables, one after the other. The phrase "THIS parable" certainly is not limited to the next, one, parable only!

These are ALL parables and most scholars recognize them as parables.

My Oxford KJV even has at the top of the page over the parable of the prodigal son, these words: "The parable of the prodigal son." The text does not call it a parable, but certainly it follows that it IS the third part of a five-part parable.

Notice the transition that Jesus uses between the lost sheep and the lost coin. He says, "Neither..." Some translations have "Or..." This word certainly connects it to the previous parable! Notice Chapter 16, verse 1: "And He said ALSO unto his disciples..." "Also" refers back to all that went before in this five-part parable, and now Jesus is continuing with the same train of thought with the fourth of this five-part parable.


Notice next the introduction of the third, fourth, and fifth parables:

"A CERTAIN MAN..." (15:11)

"There was A CERTAIN RICH MAN..." (16:1).

"There was A CERTAIN RICH MAN..." (16:19).

Again, it is clear that these are THREE parables of a five-part parable!



Remember this verse below?

John 3:13 "NO MAN has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.."

Teaching that this parable is a literal historical fact makes Christ out to be a liar. When our Lord was alive on this earth giving us this parable, He said: "...NO MAN HAS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN..." So how can it be said that at the same time our Lord was telling us that "no man has ascended to heaven," that Lazarus and Abraham had ascended and were already in heaven? This is absolute Scriptural proof that when Jesus told this PARABLE there was no man named Lazarus living in Heaven with Abraham OR ANYONE ELSE! So here then is another of the hundreds of problems with the Scriptures if we insist this parable is literal.

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

I still believe Jesus was just talking about his body when he said that he had not yet ascended to his Father.

Notice this verse in Acts

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

This is after the resurrection of Christ yet it says that David is not ascended into the heavens? Its only talking about Davids body, not his spirit.

I believe Christ saw the thief on the cross in paradise (heaven) on the very die that he died because it was Christ spirit that went to heaven.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

 

[Osgiliath]

I still believe Jesus was just talking about his body when he said that he had not yet ascended to his Father.

I believe Christ saw the thief on the cross in paradise (heaven) on the very day that he died because it was Christ spirit that went to heaven.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

I do not agree with you there, but let's take a look at it:

Luke 23:43: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise."


The KJV is an unfortunate translation of scripture lending credence to all sorts of unscriptural interpretations.

Jesus didn't say 'TODAY' (this day) you go to paradise, nor did the thief! After Jesus DIED, He was DEAD (a Scriptural and scientific truth denied by most of Christendom). God the Father "raised Jesus 'FROM THE DEAD'" (Galatians 1:1), which is proof that Jesus WAS DEAD! And if He was DEAD in the tomb, He was not LIVING at some other location called "paradise."

Christ did NOT go to "paradise" on that day. Read John 20:17. When Mary saw the resurrected Jesus THREE DAYS after His death, He said to her, "I am not yet ascended to my father". If Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven, how could the thief "be there with Jesus" if Jesus wasn't there yet?



As originally written, the Greek was WITHOUT PUNCTUATION. The adverb 'SEMERON,' "today," stands between two clauses which read, literally, "truly to you I say" and "with me you will be in paradise."


The Greek says: "AMEN SOI LEGO SEMERON MET EMOU ESE EN TO PARADESO" Literally: "Truly to-you I-say today with-me you-will-be in the paradise."

Because we KNOW that Jesus did not ascend to heaven on the day he died on the cross (John 20:17), we know the translators put the "comma" in the wrong place. That comma belongs AFTER the word "TODAY;" NOT BEFORE the word TODAY, and after the word "THEE."


The verse should read:

Luke 23:43: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, Shalt thou be with me in paradise."


Notice how the Greek scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse:

"Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

I do not agree with you there, but let's take a look at it:

Luke 23:43: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise."


The KJV is an unfortunate translation of scripture lending credence to all sorts of unscriptural interpretations.

Jesus didn't say 'TODAY' (this day) you go to paradise, nor did the thief! After Jesus DIED, He was DEAD (a Scriptural and scientific truth denied by most of Christendom). God the Father "raised Jesus 'FROM THE DEAD'" (Galatians 1:1), which is proof that Jesus WAS DEAD! And if He was DEAD in the tomb, He was not LIVING at some other location called "paradise."

Christ did NOT go to "paradise" on that day. Read John 20:17. When Mary saw the resurrected Jesus THREE DAYS after His death, He said to her, "I am not yet ascended to my father". If Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven, how could the thief "be there with Jesus" if Jesus wasn't there yet?



As originally written, the Greek was WITHOUT PUNCTUATION. The adverb 'SEMERON,' "today," stands between two clauses which read, literally, "truly to you I say" and "with me you will be in paradise."


The Greek says: "AMEN SOI LEGO SEMERON MET EMOU ESE EN TO PARADESO" Literally: "Truly to-you I-say today with-me you-will-be in the paradise."

Because we KNOW that Jesus did not ascend to heaven on the day he died on the cross (John 20:17), we know the translators put the "comma" in the wrong place. That comma belongs AFTER the word "TODAY;" NOT BEFORE the word TODAY, and after the word "THEE."


The verse should read:

Luke 23:43: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, Shalt thou be with me in paradise."


Notice how the Greek scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse:

"Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."

So I take it you don't believe in a conscious intermediate state?

You believe that every part of Christ being was dead? Do you believe Jesus was God manifested in the flesh? How can God cease to exist?

 

[Sinthesis]

The verse should read:

Luke 23:43: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, Shalt thou be with me in paradise."

That sounds like Jesus is challenging the thief with a question?

I don't believe that 'paradise' and 'heaven' are necessarily the same, especially when dealing with these two verses.

 

[eddif]

Nothing new here, but I thought it was worth bringing up for discussion. Taking a look at the account of the thief on the cross:

Luke 23:43
"Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.â€"

But, in John, three days after He Spoke those words:

John 20:17
"Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’â€

I'm looking for discussion on this, not debate, and not a side bar debate on the immediate presence with the Lord upon our deaths. In the end, this appears to be something that we can disagree on after much consideration and not impact our Salvation. I've heard it described as falling asleep and waking up in another place. It feels like a moment elapsed. It could have been a moment or much longer, but it's all the same to the person who was asleep.

But back to topic, I'm hoping to see some of your thoughts as to how these two verse are in harmony with each other.

It'll probably be a slow day, though. Happy Easter

Looking at the Peace Jesus generally experienced during his life; I tend to believe he already was in paradise.
He had:
A word of knowledge when he needed it
Peace during the Storm
The ability to accept his calling in life (even the death on a cruel cross)
Wisdom to instruct others
Ability to work miracles
Ability tell about future events
etc. etc.

Some may not agree, but to me Jesus was already in paradise and the thief was getting into that same mindset.

I think we are presently in that same paradise in our minds. The flesh suffers an existance that is not so great, but the mind soars to the very throne of God. With Jesus seated at the right had of God interceeding for us and the Holy Spirit indwelling us (behold I stand at the door and knock).

That thief went from reviling Jesus to realizing his guilt and seeing Jesus as devine. Pretty much a great leap into understanding. An understanding of who he was and who he was next to.

The John passage is the method he was going to use to bring about all that happened in the Luke passage. Time with God just goes back and forth. Looking forward in Isaiah 58 to healing accomplished by NT Jesus, and now we look back to the Jesus described in Isaiah 58 for healing.

eddif

 

[JLB]

What is the setting of this Lazarus parable JLB? Actually it is the last of a five-part parable beginning in Chapter 15 of Luke. Here is the reason for these five parables in a row:

Luke 15:1-2 "Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, 'This Man receives sinners and eats with them.'"

Verse 2:

"Now He told them [the tax collectors, sinners, Pharisees, and scribes] THIS PARABLE, saying..."

Jesus then gives them FIVE parables, one after the other. The phrase "THIS parable" certainly is not limited to the next, one, parable only!

These are ALL parables and most scholars recognize them as parables.

My Oxford KJV even has at the top of the page over the parable of the prodigal son, these words: "The parable of the prodigal son." The text does not call it a parable, but certainly it follows that it IS the third part of a five-part parable.

Notice the transition that Jesus uses between the lost sheep and the lost coin. He says, "Neither..." Some translations have "Or..." This word certainly connects it to the previous parable! Notice Chapter 16, verse 1: "And He said ALSO unto his disciples..." "Also" refers back to all that went before in this five-part parable, and now Jesus is continuing with the same train of thought with the fourth of this five-part parable.


Notice next the introduction of the third, fourth, and fifth parables:

"A CERTAIN MAN..." (15:11)

"There was A CERTAIN RICH MAN..." (16:1).

"There was A CERTAIN RICH MAN..." (16:19).

Again, it is clear that these are THREE parables of a five-part parable!



Remember this verse below?

John 3:13 "NO MAN has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.."

Teaching that this parable is a literal historical fact makes Christ out to be a liar. When our Lord was alive on this earth giving us this parable, He said: "...NO MAN HAS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN..." So how can it be said that at the same time our Lord was telling us that "no man has ascended to heaven," that Lazarus and Abraham had ascended and were already in heaven? This is absolute Scriptural proof that when Jesus told this PARABLE there was no man named Lazarus living in Heaven with Abraham OR ANYONE ELSE! So here then is another of the hundreds of problems with the Scriptures if we insist this parable is literal.

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43

... today you will be with Me in Paradise.


For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matthew 12:40

so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



The Lord Jesus did not ascend to Heaven until after He went into the heart of the earth.

In the heart of the earth was paradise, for He said "this day" you will be with Me in paradise.


8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? Ephesians 4:8-9


... but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?


The heart of the earth, paradise and Abraham's bosom are all refer to this "first descending"!


18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison... 1 Peter 3:18-19

JLB

 

[JLB]

John 3:13 "NO MAN has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.."

Jesus came down from heaven to earth and became flesh and dwelt among us.

All the fullness of the Godhead was in Him , while He was on earth, therefore His Spirit continually and omnipresently dwelt in heaven and on earth.


JLB

 

[eddif]

This may just confuse, but I will try.

Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Now this is what I tend to understand. Where the tree of life exists:
In the garden of Eden (sin drove us out of the garden)
In heaven (Revelation end chapters)
In us (by human body symbolism) We are the tabernacle and he dwells in us (if we open the door when he knocks)

IMHO we have a courtroom situation in Heaven (dangerous thought with what I see today).

1. God is in heaven as Judge (?)
2. We have a lawyer as if we were there (Jesus our intercessor)
3. The Holy Spirit is in us to communicate to Jesus the thoughts of the Crucified Jesus in our hearts.

I realize this can not be a perfect analogy.

If Jesus is at work in Heaven (most of us agree on some level), then we might as well be there because of the quality of our representative.

So the heaven we live in physically (including space ?)
The heaven we think in (inner spirit of our mind)
The heaven where God is

And others may see better explanations of the heavens.


eddif

 

[Asyncritus]

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43

... today you will be with Me in Paradise.


For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matthew 12:40

so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



The Lord Jesus did not ascend to Heaven until after He went into the heart of the earth.

In the heart of the earth was paradise, for He said "this day" you will be with Me in paradise.


8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? Ephesians 4:8-9


... but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?


The heart of the earth, paradise and Abraham's bosom are all refer to this "first descending"!


18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison... 1 Peter 3:18-19

JLB

JLB

I really don't understand how you manage to get the wrong end of the stick nearly every time.

You've seen the evidence which clearly says that Jesus was 'in hell' for 3 days and nights. Which is obviously equal to 'in the heart of the earth', unless of course, you're saying that the earth has a heart?

You've also got the wrong end of the stick as far as Abraham's bosom is concerned.

'In the bosom' is the figure of speech meaning 'close to', or 'in a place of honour'. Here's the proof:

John 13. 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

This is at the last supper where they were 'reclining' on these sofa-like things.

The person immediately next to Jesus, who would be reclining propped up on His left arm, while He fed Himself with His right arm, was described as being 'in Jesus' bosom'.

Meaning that John was in position number 2 in the whole thing - a place of great honour.

Therefore, Abraham's bosom describes a meal table in the Kingdom of God, and Lazarus elevated to high position at the marriage supper of the Lamb, where those condemned:

Lk 13.28 [...] shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Lazarus is in, and the rich man thrust out. He is not dead yet, and can still talk to the Judge, who is obviously Jesus, represented by Abraham in the parable.

Why do you have to get yourself tangled up in such unscriptural knots?

In the heart of the earth was paradise, for He said "this day" you will be with Me in paradise.

If the grave is 'paradise', then you can keep it.

'Paradise,' as you should know by now, is the word which means 'the garden of God'. If the garden of God is underground, then it's a pretty odd garden!

So what is it then? Answer: Eden restored to Jerusalem, where it originally was:

Isa 51. For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

There, isn't that easy to understand?

Just BTW, 'the spirits in prison' are also clarified by Isaiah:

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto (1) the meek; he hath sent me to bind up (2) the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to (3) the captives, and the opening of the prison to (4) them that are bound;

Isaiah 42:7 To open (5) the blind eyes, to bring out (6) the prisoners from the prison, and (7) them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

So the 'spirits' who were in prison are:

1 the meek
2 the broken hearted
3 the captives
4 the bound
5 the blind
6 the prisoners
7 them that sit in darkness

These are not literal groups of people, but the spiritual equivalents, as Zacharias makes plain:

Lk 1. 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;[...]

76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

 

[JLB]

JLB

I really don't understand how you manage to get the wrong end of the stick nearly every time.

You've seen the evidence which clearly says that Jesus was 'in hell' for 3 days and nights. Which is obviously equal to 'in the heart of the earth', unless of course, you're saying that the earth has a heart?

You've also got the wrong end of the stick as far as Abraham's bosom is concerned.

'In the bosom' is the figure of speech meaning 'close to', or 'in a place of honour'. Here's the proof:

John 13. 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

This is at the last supper where they were 'reclining' on these sofa-like things.

The person immediately next to Jesus, who would be reclining propped up on His left arm, while He fed Himself with His right arm, was described as being 'in Jesus' bosom'.

Meaning that John was in position number 2 in the whole thing - a place of great honour.

Therefore, Abraham's bosom describes a meal table in the Kingdom of God, and Lazarus elevated to high position at the marriage supper of the Lamb, where those condemned:

Lk 13.28 [...] shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Lazarus is in, and the rich man thrust out. He is not dead yet, and can still talk to the Judge, who is obviously Jesus, represented by Abraham in the parable.

Why do you have to get yourself tangled up in such unscriptural knots?


If the grave is 'paradise', then you can keep it.

'Paradise,' as you should know by now, is the word which means 'the garden of God'. If the garden of God is underground, then it's a pretty odd garden!

So what is it then? Answer: Eden restored to Jerusalem, where it originally was:

Isa 51. For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

There, isn't that easy to understand?

Just BTW, 'the spirits in prison' are also clarified by Isaiah:

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto (1) the meek; he hath sent me to bind up (2) the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to (3) the captives, and the opening of the prison to (4) them that are bound;

Isaiah 42:7 To open (5) the blind eyes, to bring out (6) the prisoners from the prison, and (7) them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

So the 'spirits' who were in prison are:

1 the meek
2 the broken hearted
3 the captives
4 the bound
5 the blind
6 the prisoners
7 them that sit in darkness

These are not literal groups of people, but the spiritual equivalents, as Zacharias makes plain:

Lk 1. 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;[...]

76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. By your "own" definition, Lazarus was carried by the angels to where Abraham was, though it referred to the number 2 position in rank is doubtful. The point is, Lazarus was carried to where Abraham was.

Abraham was not in hell!

The rich man was in hell! Not the grave!

Abraham spoke to the rich man. But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

The rich man spoke to Abraham. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'


Lazarus and Abraham and the rich man were all in the heart of the earth. Jesus descended into the heart of the earth for three days and nights.


51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:51-53

Jesus was raised from the heart of the earth.

The saints were raised from the heart of the earth.

The saints were not in hell, rather they were in paradise!

Jesus was also in paradise as He said to the thief on the cross, This day you will be with Me in paradise.

If the grave is 'paradise', then you can keep it.

I didn't use the term "grave". I used the term hell.

Do you believe there is a hell with fire where the unsaved go?


JLB

 

[Asyncritus]

So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. By your "own" definition, Lazarus was carried by the angels to where Abraham was, though it referred to the number 2 position in rank is doubtful. The point is, Lazarus was carried to where Abraham was.

Correct, JLB

You must know this passage:

Mt 24.30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When does this happen?

At the second coming. When THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD takes place.

Who carries the elect?

Answer: the angels. So: He (Lazarus) was carried by the angels

Where?

Into the kingdom of God, where he is judged worthy of a place in the Kingdom, and sits at the marriage Supper of the Lamb,being with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who are there:

Lk 13.28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down (= recline) in the kingdom of God.

Where?

In the New Jerusalem, at

Rev 19.9 ... the marriage supper of the Lamb.

And where's the rich man?

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Simple enough, isn't it?

 

[JLB]

Correct, JLB

You must know this passage:

Mt 24.30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When does this happen?

At the second coming. When THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD takes place.

Who carries the elect?

Answer: the angels. So: He (Lazarus) was carried by the angels

Where?

Into the kingdom of God, where he is judged worthy of a place in the Kingdom, and sits at the marriage Supper of the Lamb,being with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who are there:

Lk 13.28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down (= recline) in the kingdom of God.

Where?

In the New Jerusalem, at

Rev 19.9 ... the marriage supper of the Lamb.

And where's the rich man?

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Simple enough, isn't it?

Correct, JLB

You must know this passage:

Mt 24.30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When does this happen?

At the second coming. When THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD takes place.

Who carries the elect?

Answer: the angels. So: He (Lazarus) was carried by the angels

Where?

Answer -

Abraham's Bosom.

So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. Luke 16:22

Where was Abraham's Bosom?

Answer -

The heart of the earth.

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:22-23

and again


For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40


The pattern with you seems to be consistent. Your "theology" seems to be in DIRECT oppositions to the words of Jesus Christ!

I will ask you a second time -

Do you believe there is a hell, with fire where the unsaved go at death?

[ I am willing to predict that your answer to this question is no.]


JLB

 

[Mike]

And with that, it looks like everyone is through discussing the OP. This is the Bible Study Forum, not a war room. And no promotion of Universal Salvation is permitted on CFnet.

Thank you.