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Man Conceived Religions

Do you think gehenna is hell?


Correct. It's the other way around. Gehenna is a representation of the lake of fire.


Do you believe all people have a soul or spirit that survives death?


Yes, that is my point.

You said: "Just as when there is no more death, thus no need for hell, they are cast into that lake, gone forever."

My reply with Rev 20:10 shows that there is no destruction in the lake of fire, since the devil, the beast, and the falst prophet remain there forever.

Notice that first:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. (ESV)

Then:

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. (ESV)

And then comes Rev 20:10. So, the beast and false prophet were in the lake of fire for one thousand years prior to the devil being thrown in. This again proves that there is no destruction in the lake of fire, or at least no immediate destruction.


What are you referring to by "10:4"?


Based on what, exactly, do you determine I quoted "from an extremely poor version of the Bible? The ESV is one of the best translations. Does the version you use say something different? If so, what does it say?


Who will receive the severest punishment? Who is everyone that gets case into the lake of fire? You're not addressing my argument based on those passages. There are at least two, if not three, different degrees of punishment given in that passage. Your position does not take this into account.


What gift?


That verse is speaking only of physical death in this life. It says nothing about one's eternal fate.


If by "permanent destruction" you mean annihilation, the passages I have given from Rev suggest otherwise.


It is simply begging the question to conclude that "eternal destruction" means annihilation.
Mr. Free, with all due respect when looked at the translation for lake of fire in Revelation it is Gehenna. Hades is the abode that holds the good and the bad. For the angels of disobedience it is Tartaroo the deepest place in hell and the abode of demons.

Those who are thrown in the lake of fire will experience the second death and will not be resurrected anymore (Revelation 21:8; Revelation 20:10–15; Revelation 19:20).

Here is a good website I found:https://becomingchristians.com/2020/03/21/three-little-known-types-of-hell-mentioned-in-the-bible/
 
Mr. Free, with all due respect when looked at the translation for lake of fire in Revelation it is Gehenna.
The lake of fire is literally translated and doesn't come from gehenna. I have made the argument several times that Jesus uses gehenna as a metaphor for the final destination of the unrighteous. Revelation says the lake of fire is the final destination of the unrighteous. Therefore, gehenna is a metaphor for the lake of fire, which is Hell proper.

Hades is the abode that holds the good and the bad. For the angels of disobedience it is Tartaroo the deepest place in hell and the abode of demons.
Yet, I am aware of all that.

Those who are thrown in the lake of fire will experience the second death and will not be resurrected anymore (Revelation 21:8; Revelation 20:10–15; Revelation 19:20).

Here is a good website I found:https://becomingchristians.com/2020/03/21/three-little-known-types-of-hell-mentioned-in-the-bible/
No, there is no resurrection from the lake of fire, but that doesn't mean the people thrown in there are consumed, especially since it may not be a literal fire.
 
So, despite Jesus saying that people can kill the body and do no more, but God can throw both body and soul into hell, you still deny that the soul is separate from the body?

Not the lake of fire, rather the abyss, the devil and his horde will be cast in after the short time of his release at the end of the millennial reign of Christ
You're not addressing what the verses actually say. First comes this:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. (ESV)

Then:

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. (ESV)

And then:

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV)

The devil is the only one thrown into the abyss, after the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. After the devil is "released for a little while," he is then also thrown into the lake of fire, where all three "will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

CB talk sir, I agree/understand
Yes, I know what it means in that context. I just thought you had forgotten to put the book name before chapter and verse. ha ha

life or death is what God offers

Rom 6:23
Okay, but you're still not addressing the main point of the verses I shared from Luke 12, which clearly describe two or three degrees of punishment in hell. Your position simply cannot account for this, since in your view everyone gets the same punishment. But that is not what the Bible says.
 
The lake of fire is literally translated and doesn't come from gehenna. I have made the argument several times that Jesus uses gehenna as a metaphor for the final destination of the unrighteous. Revelation says the lake of fire is the final destination of the unrighteous. Therefore, gehenna is a metaphor for the lake of fire, which is Hell proper.


Yet, I am aware of all that.


No, there is no resurrection from the lake of fire, but that doesn't mean the people thrown in there are consumed, especially since it may not be a literal fire.
May not be a literal fire they will burn without being burned whether it's through unfulfilled lusts (like the rich man craving for water), a real fire, or just the dispare of enternal seperation from God.
 
So, despite Jesus saying that people can kill the body and do no more, but God can throw both body and soul into hell, you still deny that the soul is separate from the body?


You're not addressing what the verses actually say. First comes this:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. (ESV)

Then:

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. (ESV)

And then:

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV)

The devil is the only one thrown into the abyss, after the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. After the devil is "released for a little while," he is then also thrown into the lake of fire, where all three "will be tormented day and night forever and ever."


Yes, I know what it means in that context. I just thought you had forgotten to put the book name before chapter and verse. ha ha


Okay, but you're still not addressing the main point of the verses I shared from Luke 12, which clearly describe two or three degrees of punishment in hell. Your position simply cannot account for this, since in your view everyone gets the same punishment. But that is not what the Bible says.
So, despite Jesus saying that people can kill the body and do no more, but God can throw both body and soul into hell, you still deny that the soul is separate from the body?
No sir, I believe the soul is not separate from the body, but the problem is understanding the meaning of the verse. It is speaking about everlasting life, men may kill you now, but can not keep you from receiving everlasting life, only God can Free.
You're not addressing what the verses actually say. First comes this:
I do not believe it to be in chronological order, clearly verse 6 happens before verse 5
Yes, I know what it means in that context. I just thought you had forgotten to put the book name before chapter and verse. ha ha
I thought that might have been the case, I should have realized that when I posted it. :chin
Okay, but you're still not addressing the main point of the verses I shared from Luke 12, which clearly describe two or three degrees of punishment in hell. Your position simply cannot account for this, since in your view everyone gets the same punishment. But that is not what the Bible says.
We have disagreed Free, I believe God offers either life or death. You are speaking about the judgment of gehenna, and need to understand how those whom it was stated to would have understood it.

Time is going to reveal the truth of the matter, when we were under law, there were different consequences for various sins, and even in the Christian congregation today there are various disciplines practiced. Most likely when the Kingdom is established and we are given new instruction there will be consequences for violations no doubt, but on the permanent scale, after the destruction of satan and those who follow, sin will not be tolerated and instantaneous death would result. Remember that second chance that came through Jesus sacrifice was only for our inherited death, not for the second death.
 
Although straying from the topic, you hit the nail on the head sir, the issue of Sovereignty. What the entire Bible is about.
The topic is about man conceived religions. God's sovereignty is limited by his holy, righteous, just nature. The whole Bible is about Jesus Christ and his Gospel.
 
The topic is about man conceived religions. God's sovereignty is limited by his holy, righteous, just nature. The whole Bible is about Jesus Christ and his Gospel.
He plays a large factor for sure Robert Pate. See if you agree with this sir, the theme of the Bible is: The vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty and the fulfillment of His purpose for the earth by means of His Kingdom under Christ, the promised offspring
 
He plays a large factor for sure Robert Pate. See if you agree with this sir, the theme of the Bible is: The vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty and the fulfillment of His purpose for the earth by means of His Kingdom under Christ, the promised offspring
God is not vindictive. God's purpose in Jesus Christ is to provide salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. Not everyone wants his salvation. Those that receive it will have eternal life.
 
Same reason that all of the Pharisees went to hell, Matthew chapter 23. They love their religion and their sins more than they love Jesus.
The reason they went to hell is because they died sir. Jesus warned them however that many of them could be in danger of the judgment of gehenna, and I believe that is what you are referring to.
 
This is what Paul said to the law keepers.

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man (Christians) but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly, and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murders of fathers and murders of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for homosexuals, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary for sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:9-10.

I would say that if any of the above fits you, then the law is for you.

Christians are not led by laws, rules or religion, they are led by the Holy Spirit. The reason that some want to obey laws, rules and religion is because they are void of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will never lead a Christian to sin. Those that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit love righteousness and will do righteousness, Ephesians 2:10.
 
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