Man Conceived Religions

[Highway54]

We've already been through that. I would really like it if you answered my questions and addressed the arguments I have made several times now.

Did we not come to a disagreement on that sir? To sum it up you said God is going to torment people eternally in a lake of fire, I say He is not. So you didn't accept my conclusion. I felt that it might be more appropriate to differentiate what Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna actually represent on a deeper scale, but it appears that you are uninterested. If you would like to discuss it further, I will be most happy to Free.

 

[Highway54]

Everyone who commits sin risks eternity for that sin.
Now tell me they don't want suffering for that sin.
Sin is an all or nothing deal.

Ok Hopeful will be most happy to sir: People do not want suffering for their sins. I cannot even imagine why you would think otherwise. Not even God wants that, rather He prefers that they repent. 2 Pet 3:9.

All of us sin, and through the love of our God, He made it possible for us to have forgiveness for our sins. That ransom was not given to those who practice sin Hopeful make no mistake about that, but it does apply for all those who sincerely repent. Although you are quite correct, our final judgment is eternal, you can rest assured that God is not going to torment/torture anyone eternally. Although He is called Love because of His greatest quality, another great quality of His is Justice. What would be your answer to Bildad if he asked you this: (Job 8:3) . . .Will God pervert justice, Or will the Almighty pervert righteousness? I truly believe it would be the same as mine sir.

 

[Free]

Did we not come to a disagreement on that sir?

I don't think so. You said: "Would you like to discuss what Sheol and Hades is Free?" I replied that we have discussed that already, back on pages 18 and 19, and I thought that we agreed that Sheol and Hades are one and the same.

To sum it up you said God is going to torment people eternally in a lake of fire, I say He is not. So you didn't accept my conclusion.

No, I don't accept your conclusion about the lake of fire, but that has nothing to do with Sheol and Hades.

I felt that it might be more appropriate to differentiate what Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna actually represent on a deeper scale, but it appears that you are uninterested. If you would like to discuss it further, I will be most happy to Free.

I am intereseted, but the problem is, you once again did not address two arguments, which I have put to you several times with no response. It's very difficult to have a discussion if you're unwilling to actually address what I am stating and asking.

 

[Hopeful]

Ok Hopeful will be most happy to sir: People do not want suffering for their sins. I cannot even imagine why you would think otherwise. Not even God wants that, rather He prefers that they repent. 2 Pet 3:9.

I think every soul on earth knows there is a price to pay for evil doing.
It may be jail, or embarrassment, or loss of money/property, or eternity in the lake of fire.
If they do the evil, it shows they are willing to pay that price.

All of us sin,

All sin until they repent of sin.
If they turn from sin, God provides everything they need to remain free.
Including God's promised escapes from temptations. (1 Cor 10:13)

and through the love of our God, He made it possible for us to have forgiveness for our sins.

Agreed, and thanks be to God.

That ransom was not given to those who practice sin Hopeful make no mistake about that, but it does apply for all those who sincerely repent. Although you are quite correct, our final judgment is eternal, you can rest assured that God is not going to torment/torture anyone eternally.

We disagree on that point. (except the "sincerely" part)

Although He is called Love because of His greatest quality, another great quality of His is Justice. What would be your answer to Bildad if he asked you this: (Job 8:3) . . .Will God pervert justice, Or will the Almighty pervert righteousness? I truly believe it would be the same as mine sir.

Wouldn't it be a perversion of justice to allow some to escape their punishment?
I think so.

 

[Highway54]

I don't think so. You said: "Would you like to discuss what Sheol and Hades is Free?" I replied that we have discussed that already, back on pages 18 and 19, and I thought that we agreed that Sheol and Hades are one and the same.


No, I don't accept your conclusion about the lake of fire, but that has nothing to do with Sheol and Hades.


I am intereseted, but the problem is, you once again did not address two arguments, which I have put to you several times with no response. It's very difficult to have a discussion if you're unwilling to actually address what I am stating and asking.

I don't think so. You said: "Would you like to discuss what Sheol and Hades is Free?" I replied that we have discussed that already, back on pages 18 and 19, and I thought that we agreed that Sheol and Hades are one and the same.

I apologize Free, my memory is not great, and it is difficult to go back thorough the many past conversations, especially when days go by, and with talking with so many different ones as well. I am glad we agree on Sheol and Hades.

No, I don't accept your conclusion about the lake of fire, but that has nothing to do with Sheol and Hades.

God really concludes it Free, He said the lake of fire means the second death.

I am intereseted, but the problem is, you once again did not address two arguments, which I have put to you several times with no response. It's very difficult to have a discussion if you're unwilling to actually address what I am stating and asking.

I will go further into gehenna. So far I believe we agree it is symbolized by the lake of fire, correct me if I am wrong. Let me ask you now, do you have a preferred version Free?

Gehenna occurs 12 times in the Bible and each time in the KJV, it is rendered hell. Of those 12 times Jesus said it 11 times and his brother James used it once, showing how evil the tongue can be. 6 times it is paired with the word Pyr, rendered fire in each of those places. Strongs definition is this: γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.

Initially Judean Kings Ahaz and Manasseh engaged in idolatrous worship there, which included the making of human sacrifices by fire to Baal. (2Ch 28:1, 3; 33:1, 6; Jer 7:31, 32; 32:35).

By Jesus' day however as you stated it was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalems walls, and the people who heard Jesus used it in his speech were quite aware of what it was. We have to understand it the way they would have understood it. While it is true that some commentators endeavor to link such fiery characteristic of Gehenna with the burning of human sacrifices that was carried on prior to Josiah’s reign and, on this basis, hold that Gehenna was used by Jesus as a symbol of everlasting torment. However, since Jehovah God expressed repugnance for such practice, saying that it was “a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart” (Jer 7:31; 32:35), it seems most unlikely that God’s Son, in discussing divine judgment, would make such idolatrous practice the basis for the symbolic meaning of Gehenna. It might further be noted that some who were not worthy of what we call a Christian burial were cast into it and burned up, but they were not alive.
(Jeremiah 19:6, 7) 6 “‘“Therefore look! the days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when this place will no longer be called Toʹpheth or the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom but the Valley of the Slaughter. 7 I will thwart the plans of Judah and Jerusalem in this place, and I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies and by the hand of those seeking to take their life. And I will give their dead bodies as food to the birds of the heavens and to the beasts of the earth.

Gods word defines what death is: (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6) . . .For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.

And He defined the lake of fire as being the second death. Heb 9:27 tells us we must die once, but those who receive the judgment of the second death are gone. Just as when there is no more death, thus no need for hell, they are cast into that lake, gone forever.

The verses that give the impression that live ones will be tormented forever there, are not contradictory, rather simply misunderstood, because of not being in the receivers shoes. We must understand it the way they would have. They observed dead carcasses being cast into the refuse, and the ever present maggots which infest our garbage dumps today are there as well seemingly not dying. Until recently garbage dumps were burned to consume the refuse, and no doubt many still are throughout the earth.

If you disagree with this sir, please repeat your reasoning.

 

[Highway54]

I think every soul on earth knows there is a price to pay for evil doing.
It may be jail, or embarrassment, or loss of money/property, or eternity in the lake of fire.
If they do the evil, it shows they are willing to pay that price.

All sin until they repent of sin.
If they turn from sin, God provides everything they need to remain free.
Including God's promised escapes from temptations. (1 Cor 10:13)

Agreed, and thanks be to God.

We disagree on that point. (except the "sincerely" part)

Wouldn't it be a perversion of justice to allow some to escape their punishment?
I think so.

I think every soul on earth knows there is a price to pay for evil doing.
It may be jail, or embarrassment, or loss of money/property, or eternity in the lake of fire.
If they do the evil, it shows they are willing to pay that price.

God stated it sir, the wages sin pays is death

We disagree on that point. (except the "sincerely" part)

May I ask then why would you serve a god who is going to torture people eternally? Do you not think when he tired of you, that you would eventually end up there as well? I would hope I had enough strength to stand against him, as did satan, retaining my dignity in knowing beyond a reasonable doubt I am better than god.

 

[Robert Pate]

God stated it sir, the wages sin pays is death

May I ask then why would you serve a god who is going to torture people eternally? Do you not think when he tired of you, that you would eventually end up there as well? I would hope I had enough strength to stand against him, as did satan, retaining my dignity in knowing beyond a reasonable doubt I am better than god.

So, you are going to stand up against God and retain your dignity because you are better than God? Sounds like Satan talking, Isaiah 14:12-15.

 

[Free]

I apologize Free, my memory is not great, and it is difficult to go back thorough the many past conversations, especially when days go by, and with talking with so many different ones as well. I am glad we agree on Sheol and Hades.

I thought we did. Do you think that Hades is hell?

God really concludes it Free, He said the lake of fire means the second death.

I agree it is the second death, but it is what that means that is important.

I will go further into gehenna. So far I believe we agree it is symbolized by the lake of fire, correct me if I am wrong. Let me ask you now, do you have a preferred version Free?

Gehenna occurs 12 times in the Bible and each time in the KJV, it is rendered hell. Of those 12 times Jesus said it 11 times and his brother James used it once, showing how evil the tongue can be. 6 times it is paired with the word Pyr, rendered fire in each of those places. Strongs definition is this: γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.

Initially Judean Kings Ahaz and Manasseh engaged in idolatrous worship there, which included the making of human sacrifices by fire to Baal. (2Ch 28:1, 3; 33:1, 6; Jer 7:31, 32; 32:35).

By Jesus' day however as you stated it was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalems walls, and the people who heard Jesus used it in his speech were quite aware of what it was. We have to understand it the way they would have understood it. While it is true that some commentators endeavor to link such fiery characteristic of Gehenna with the burning of human sacrifices that was carried on prior to Josiah’s reign and, on this basis, hold that Gehenna was used by Jesus as a symbol of everlasting torment. However, since Jehovah God expressed repugnance for such practice, saying that it was “a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart” (Jer 7:31; 32:35), it seems most unlikely that God’s Son, in discussing divine judgment, would make such idolatrous practice the basis for the symbolic meaning of Gehenna. It might further be noted that some who were not worthy of what we call a Christian burial were cast into it and burned up, but they were not alive.
(Jeremiah 19:6, 7) 6 “‘“Therefore look! the days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when this place will no longer be called Toʹpheth or the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom but the Valley of the Slaughter. 7 I will thwart the plans of Judah and Jerusalem in this place, and I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies and by the hand of those seeking to take their life. And I will give their dead bodies as food to the birds of the heavens and to the beasts of the earth.

I don't see what any of this has to do with Jesus using gehenna to speak of the final destination of unbelievers. It was a garbage dump where there was always a fire burning. The final destination of unbelievers in Revelation is the lake of fire. It is reasonable to conclude that Jesus used gehenna as a metaphor for the lake of fire, although the idea of flames is possibly symbolic for judgement.

Gods word defines what death is: (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6) . . .For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.

As I have pointed out, that is only one meaning.

And He defined the lake of fire as being the second death. Heb 9:27 tells us we must die once, but those who receive the judgment of the second death are gone. Just as when there is no more death, thus no need for hell, they are cast into that lake, gone forever.

Firstly, as I have pointed out before, Rev 20:10 states that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet "will be tormented day and night forever and ever." That isn't "gone forever."

Secondly, you are again equivocating on the meaning of "hell." We already agreed that Hades is the grave and abode of the spirits of the dead. It is Hades, not hell, that gets thrown into the lake of fire, after giving up the dead in it. It is the lake of fire that is the true hell. If you're using the KJV, then look at different version for a bit, like the NKJV, NIV, or ESV.

The verses that give the impression that live ones will be tormented forever there, are not contradictory, rather simply misunderstood, because of not being in the receivers shoes. We must understand it the way they would have. They observed dead carcasses being cast into the refuse, and the ever present maggots which infest our garbage dumps today are there as well seemingly not dying. Until recently garbage dumps were burned to consume the refuse, and no doubt many still are throughout the earth.

If you disagree with this sir, please repeat your reasoning.

I've asked you this three or four times already, but please address the following:

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

I do not agree with the seemingly common idea that there is going to be eternal physical torment in the form of some sort of torture that causes pain. It seems that while the Bible teaches the punishment of being in hell is eternal, any physical punishment is temporary, although temporary compared to eternity could still be a very long time, and varies in severity from person to person. This is consistent with Paul stating in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that believers will receive different levels of rewards. Different levels of punishment for unbelievers, different levels of reward for believers.

Therefore, any concept of an eternal hell for unbelievers needs to take into account that there seems to be limited physical punishment. Torment can be psychological, based on regret, depression, aloneness and separation, etc. Any "eternal torment" then, would likely be mental anguish over what is instead of what could have and should have been. Would it not be absolutely gut-wrenching to be in hell, with all physical punishment having ceased, and realize exactly where you went wrong and why, how you justified sin and unbelief, and to know what you have missed out on, for eternity?

 

[Rookie]

I don't see Christianity as a religion. Paul said, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. Living by faith does not include religion. Those that are living by faith are living by faith in Christ and his Gospel and not by rules, laws or religion. I think Mormon should be spelled Morman, because it is more about man than Christ.

I know you don't believe in James but read James 1:27

 

[Rookie]

I thought we did. Do you think that Hades is hell?


I agree it is the second death, but it is what that means that is important.


I don't see what any of this has to do with Jesus using gehenna to speak of the final destination of unbelievers. It was a garbage dump where there was always a fire burning. The final destination of unbelievers in Revelation is the lake of fire. It is reasonable to conclude that Jesus used gehenna as a metaphor for the lake of fire, although the idea of flames is possibly symbolic for judgement.


As I have pointed out, that is only one meaning.


Firstly, as I have pointed out before, Rev 20:10 states that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet "will be tormented day and night forever and ever." That isn't "gone forever."

Secondly, you are again equivocating on the meaning of "hell." We already agreed that Hades is the grave and abode of the spirits of the dead. It is Hades, not hell, that gets thrown into the lake of fire, after giving up the dead in it. It is the lake of fire that is the true hell. If you're using the KJV, then look at different version for a bit, like the NKJV, NIV, or ESV.


I've asked you this three or four times already, but please address the following:

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

I do not agree with the seemingly common idea that there is going to be eternal physical torment in the form of some sort of torture that causes pain. It seems that while the Bible teaches the punishment of being in hell is eternal, any physical punishment is temporary, although temporary compared to eternity could still be a very long time, and varies in severity from person to person. This is consistent with Paul stating in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that believers will receive different levels of rewards. Different levels of punishment for unbelievers, different levels of reward for believers.

Therefore, any concept of an eternal hell for unbelievers needs to take into account that there seems to be limited physical punishment. Torment can be psychological, based on regret, depression, aloneness and separation, etc. Any "eternal torment" then, would likely be mental anguish over what is instead of what could have and should have been. Would it not be absolutely gut-wrenching to be in hell, with all physical punishment having ceased, and realize exactly where you went wrong and why, how you justified sin and unbelief, and to know what you have missed out on, for eternity?

The lake of fire is Gehenna, which is different from Shoel or Hades.

 

[Rookie]

There is no mention of any religion in the New Testament. Some wanted to start a religion, but Paul wanted no part of it, 1 Corinthians 1:10-17. The New Testament emphasis is that the just shall live by faith, Romans 1:17.

If you don't take the sacraments in the Catholic church, plus dozens of other things, you will be anathema.

James 1:27 talks about religion acceptable to God. Now I know you said previously that you reject James, but it's still canon. Many reject Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, it still remains true. Now we could get into a conversation of the selection of the canon but it's irrelevant now.

 

[Robert Pate]

I know you don't believe in James but read James 1:27

The book of James is big on works. Paul said, Faith, not works counts for righteousness, Romans 4:5. The book of James is more Jewish than it is Christian. Probably because it was directed to Jews, James 1:1.

 

[Rookie]

Does that reasoning make James any less of the Bible that the more favorable parts? If you read my past discourse with you, you will see that faith doesn't prohibit works rather faith, through the power of the Spirit, automatically produces good works.

If your reasoning is as I interpret, then James is a contradiction to the whole New Testament, thus the Bible's validity is ruined.

The book of James is big on works. Paul said, Faith, not works counts for righteousness, Romans 4:5. The book of James is more Jewish than it is Christian. Probably because it was directed to Jews, James 1:1.

 

[Free]

The lake of fire is Gehenna, which is different from Shoel or Hades.

Yes, that is my point.

 

[Robert Pate]

Does that reasoning make James any less of the Bible that the more favorable parts? If you read my past discourse with you, you will see that faith doesn't prohibit works rather faith, through the power of the Spirit, automatically produces good works.

If your reasoning is as I interpret, then James is a contradiction to the whole New Testament, thus the Bible's validity is ruined.

The book of James was one of the first books in the in the New Testament. There were many Judaizers in the early church that believed you had to keep the law of Moses. It was not easy for many to turn loose of the law and live by faith in Christ and his Gospel. Paul had to teach the other apostles the Gospel and justification by faith. It was a slow process. There is very little about the Gospel and justification by faith in the book of James. It is what it is. Many Christian scholars believe that the book of James should not have been included in the New Testament.

 

[Highway54]

So, you are going to stand up against God and retain your dignity because you are better than God? Sounds like Satan talking, Isaiah 14:12-15.

If God is as you portray sir, you dag gum right I will. And yes just like satan did. I would stand with right over might any day.

 

[Highway54]

I thought we did. Do you think that Hades is hell?


I agree it is the second death, but it is what that means that is important.


I don't see what any of this has to do with Jesus using gehenna to speak of the final destination of unbelievers. It was a garbage dump where there was always a fire burning. The final destination of unbelievers in Revelation is the lake of fire. It is reasonable to conclude that Jesus used gehenna as a metaphor for the lake of fire, although the idea of flames is possibly symbolic for judgement.


As I have pointed out, that is only one meaning.


Firstly, as I have pointed out before, Rev 20:10 states that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet "will be tormented day and night forever and ever." That isn't "gone forever."

Secondly, you are again equivocating on the meaning of "hell." We already agreed that Hades is the grave and abode of the spirits of the dead. It is Hades, not hell, that gets thrown into the lake of fire, after giving up the dead in it. It is the lake of fire that is the true hell. If you're using the KJV, then look at different version for a bit, like the NKJV, NIV, or ESV.


I've asked you this three or four times already, but please address the following:

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

I do not agree with the seemingly common idea that there is going to be eternal physical torment in the form of some sort of torture that causes pain. It seems that while the Bible teaches the punishment of being in hell is eternal, any physical punishment is temporary, although temporary compared to eternity could still be a very long time, and varies in severity from person to person. This is consistent with Paul stating in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that believers will receive different levels of rewards. Different levels of punishment for unbelievers, different levels of reward for believers.

Therefore, any concept of an eternal hell for unbelievers needs to take into account that there seems to be limited physical punishment. Torment can be psychological, based on regret, depression, aloneness and separation, etc. Any "eternal torment" then, would likely be mental anguish over what is instead of what could have and should have been. Would it not be absolutely gut-wrenching to be in hell, with all physical punishment having ceased, and realize exactly where you went wrong and why, how you justified sin and unbelief, and to know what you have missed out on, for eternity?

I thought we did. Do you think that Hades is hell?

Yes sir, in definition hell is the grave where we go upon death.

I agree it is the second death, but it is what that means that is important.

Exactly!

I don't see what any of this has to do with Jesus using gehenna to speak of the final destination of unbelievers. It was a garbage dump where there was always a fire burning. The final destination of unbelievers in Revelation is the lake of fire. It is reasonable to conclude that Jesus used gehenna as a metaphor for the lake of fire, although the idea of flames is possibly symbolic for judgement.

I gather that you do not believe the lake of fire is the representation of gehenna, correct?

As I have pointed out, that is only one meaning.

What is your understanding, I have given you mine.

Firstly, as I have pointed out before, Rev 20:10 states that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet "will be tormented day and night forever and ever." That isn't "gone forever."

Rev 20:10 is speaking about the lake of fire Free

I've asked you this three or four times already, but please address the following:

10:4, it is not literal. Likely you and I would agree that they are not judged favorably, therefore will not receive the gift of everlasting life. They are real however, the faithful slave is not a parable, therefore the passage has bearing on those of the slave that turned on the Christ. So how do I interpret those passages? First of all I would say you quoted them from an extremely poor version of the Bible. I interpret them as saying they will receive the severest of punishment, which is the same punishment everyone else gets that gets cast into the figurative lake of fire. The second death.

As I stated I do not think it is literal, but clearly I do not believe that God is going to give them the gift. The problem lies in understanding the judgments by God. I say God either gives life or death, and those are eternal. We have basically disagreed on what death is, but to a degree you have stated God is not going to torture people eternally. I say with His love He is not going to torture anyone. Actually true justice would be to receive done to you what you have done to others. But that is irrelevant to the topic.

I will state it this way sir, and it will either prove true or not: De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death
Now I know this verse was not a prophecy of what we are talking about, but nonetheless I believe it to be the final outcome. I believe the lake of fire is a representation of gehenna, and that all that is cast into the figurative lake will experience permanent destruction.

I believe that God will give everlasting life to those who choose to obey Him, and permanent destruction to those who will not 2 Thes 1:9

 

[Free]

Yes sir, in definition hell is the grave where we go upon death.

Do you think gehenna is hell?

I gather that you do not believe the lake of fire is the representation of gehenna, correct?

Correct. It's the other way around. Gehenna is a representation of the lake of fire.

What is your understanding, I have given you mine.

Do you believe all people have a soul or spirit that survives death?

Rev 20:10 is speaking about the lake of fire Free

Yes, that is my point.

You said: "Just as when there is no more death, thus no need for hell, they are cast into that lake, gone forever."

My reply with Rev 20:10 shows that there is no destruction in the lake of fire, since the devil, the beast, and the falst prophet remain there forever.

Notice that first:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. (ESV)

Then:

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. (ESV)

And then comes Rev 20:10. So, the beast and false prophet were in the lake of fire for one thousand years prior to the devil being thrown in. This again proves that there is no destruction in the lake of fire, or at least no immediate destruction.

10:4, it is not literal. Likely you and I would agree that they are not judged favorably, therefore will not receive the gift of everlasting life.

What are you referring to by "10:4"?

They are real however, the faithful slave is not a parable, therefore the passage has bearing on those of the slave that turned on the Christ. So how do I interpret those passages? First of all I would say you quoted them from an extremely poor version of the Bible.

Based on what, exactly, do you determine I quoted "from an extremely poor version of the Bible? The ESV is one of the best translations. Does the version you use say something different? If so, what does it say?

I interpret them as saying they will receive the severest of punishment, which is the same punishment everyone else gets that gets cast into the figurative lake of fire. The second death.

Who will receive the severest punishment? Who is everyone that gets case into the lake of fire? You're not addressing my argument based on those passages. There are at least two, if not three, different degrees of punishment given in that passage. Your position does not take this into account.

As I stated I do not think it is literal, but clearly I do not believe that God is going to give them the gift.

What gift?

The problem lies in understanding the judgments by God. I say God either gives life or death, and those are eternal. We have basically disagreed on what death is, but to a degree you have stated God is not going to torture people eternally. I say with His love He is not going to torture anyone. Actually true justice would be to receive done to you what you have done to others. But that is irrelevant to the topic.

I will state it this way sir, and it will either prove true or not: De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death
Now I know this verse was not a prophecy of what we are talking about, but nonetheless I believe it to be the final outcome.

That verse is speaking only of physical death in this life. It says nothing about one's eternal fate.

I believe the lake of fire is a representation of gehenna, and that all that is cast into the figurative lake will experience permanent destruction.

If by "permanent destruction" you mean annihilation, the passages I have given from Rev suggest otherwise.

I believe that God will give everlasting life to those who choose to obey Him, and permanent destruction to those who will not 2 Thes 1:9

It is simply begging the question to conclude that "eternal destruction" means annihilation.

 

[Highway54]

Do you think gehenna is hell?


Correct. It's the other way around. Gehenna is a representation of the lake of fire.


Do you believe all people have a soul or spirit that survives death?


Yes, that is my point.

You said: "Just as when there is no more death, thus no need for hell, they are cast into that lake, gone forever."

My reply with Rev 20:10 shows that there is no destruction in the lake of fire, since the devil, the beast, and the falst prophet remain there forever.

Notice that first:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. (ESV)

Then:

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. (ESV)

And then comes Rev 20:10. So, the beast and false prophet were in the lake of fire for one thousand years prior to the devil being thrown in. This again proves that there is no destruction in the lake of fire, or at least no immediate destruction.


What are you referring to by "10:4"?


Based on what, exactly, do you determine I quoted "from an extremely poor version of the Bible? The ESV is one of the best translations. Does the version you use say something different? If so, what does it say?


Who will receive the severest punishment? Who is everyone that gets case into the lake of fire? You're not addressing my argument based on those passages. There are at least two, if not three, different degrees of punishment given in that passage. Your position does not take this into account.


What gift?


That verse is speaking only of physical death in this life. It says nothing about one's eternal fate.


If by "permanent destruction" you mean annihilation, the passages I have given from Rev suggest otherwise.


It is simply begging the question to conclude that "eternal destruction" means annihilation.

Do you think gehenna is hell?

No sir, it is a judgment not a place.

Correct. It's the other way around. Gehenna is a representation of the lake of fire.

They mean the same

Do you believe all people have a soul or spirit that survives death?

No sir.

And then comes Rev 20:10. So, the beast and false prophet were in the lake of fire for one thousand years prior to the devil being thrown in. This again proves that there is no destruction in the lake of fire, or at least no immediate destruction.

Not the lake of fire, rather the abyss, the devil and his horde will be cast in after the short time of his release at the end of the millennial reign of Christ

What are you referring to by "10:4"?

CB talk sir, I agree/understand

Who will receive the severest punishment? Who is everyone that gets case into the lake of fire? You're not addressing my argument based on those passages. There are at least two, if not three, different degrees of punishment given in that passage. Your position does not take this into account.

life or death is what God offers

What gift?

Rom 6:23

 

[Robert Pate]

If God is as you portray sir, you dag gum right I will. And yes just like satan did. I would stand with right over might any day.

Satan is a liar. He told Adam and Eve that they would be like God's if they ate of the tree, Genesis 3:5.