Many Scriptural proofs of man’s inherited sin nature

[Elijah674]

Re: Many Scriptural proofs of man’s inherited sin nature I like this study for END TIMES FORCASTS also!

Take note of not just one false or true doctrine as seen in 2 Tim. 3:16-17 New Testment verses to test any truth by, but one needs ALL DOCTRINE to see who are in Matt. 7's Broadway lost or the Eph. 4:5's ONE FAITH! (not having faith but in the FAITH)

A couple other test's are found besides this inherited nature one for either true or false teaching of the complete nature of sin.

1 John 3
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (and sin on earth started with Eve + Adam.. so the Law was there before mankind were)

What church doctrine teach's that?

Another doctrine is in 2 John
[6] And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
....
[9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
[10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

So who has the Eternal Doctrine of Christ? That which both Tim. & Jonh penned of.

And Gen. 3? We find God telling the Truth & satan counteracting with his first lie being told to Eve. 'Ye shall not surely die' satan says! And this is still taught for truth by man, that sure 'Inherited the Sin Nature'. If one believes God in that verse of Gen. 3??

Just one more! And remember the sin nature & the 'last days' fullfillment! We find that the Holy Spirit was STRIVING with all of the living pre/flood ones of Gen. 6:3. Noah as Peter taught us, was the preacher of RIGHTOUSNESS, and that the Holy Spirit & Noah PREACHED for 120 YEARS!

OK: Todays sinfull inherited nature? The Rev. 17:1-5 verses are even in the early reformers capital letters. Meaning that they recognized the scope of the WARNINGS! At the start of the reformation, the church's were surely sincere even if not totally given all the Rom. 8:14's Leading's. NOW we find that they have all been around many more years than the pre/flood ones were allowed before destruction came upon them.. and today we have even been understanding that the verse closes out history with daughter-s being in the plural!

And we again read James 2:10-12 with a full understanding that one truely has to be living the Born Again life for one to have access to the Tree of Life once again. And that the ones past/tense sin nature is required to be Re/Born. Acts 5:32

--Elijah

 

[heymikey80]

Hm. Is the future included in "for all time"?

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Heb 10:14

 

[Elijah674]

Hm. Is the future included in "for all time"?

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Heb 10:14

You know the difference between justification & sanctification most likely? In the pattern of requirements of the Great bluprint (pattern) of heavens Sanctuary (temple) we found the Altar of required sacrifice, it was done to have one in the faith manking them JUSTIFIED! (see Rom. 8:1)

But that was just the starting of the required process. Most of the ones of today teach that the sinner turned saint by that obedient faith, could have then just turned around and went on back home saved, but in reality they would do so as lost as ever! Acts 5:32

--Elijah

 

[Digger]

I guess I'll have to quote the actual scripture from now on as you somehow don't understand them. It may be the version of the Bible you are using. Maybe you should seriously consider getting a modern English one, like the NIV or NASB or HSCB.

Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood —to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished — 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
What Paul is teaching here is that people who believed in God's promise of salvation and Jesus, had NOT been punished before Jesus came, even though they should have once they died. Verse 26 clearly teaches WHY He did this. That is the context. It was NOT Paul's intention to deal with future sin, He was explaining God's reasoning for giving His Son as a sacrifice of atonement. Paul did indeed mean what he said, you just don't get his meaning. I see no reason to call my exegesis of scripture MY theology unless you are being condescending or self-righteous?

So now you are doing what you did with Romans 2:7. You did not like Rom 2:7 in context so you said that it stands alone and is not in the context of God rendering to every man according to his deeds.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Now you are saying that the "past sins" in Rom 3:25 applies to those who died before Christ came and thus it does not negate that "sins are forgiven in advance." That is very creative but I guess you have to say something to explain away what the verse says.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

How do you explain away what Peter wrote?

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Why would pro 28:13 clearly state that sin must be forsaken in order to be forgiven if forgiveness is already granted for future sins? That would be a contradiction because it would mean that the sin does not have to be forsaken.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

The same with Isa 55:7.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

You have a conundrum on your hands. If sins are forgiven in advance then those verses do not make sense.

Nor does this one...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

You have removed the forsaking of sin as resulting from a genuine repentance in order that you can teach that future sins are forgiven in advance.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that future sins are forgiven in advance.

Yet you believe it and have to force such a view into the scripture. Quoting verses about being redeemed don't undo what the Bible teaches about repentance.

Jesus taught that one must repent or perish. Jesus taught the parable of the Prodigal Son as an example of repentance and the son had to forsake the pig pen BEFORE he was restored by the father.

Feedm3 pointed a good example of the disobedient servant who repented and went and did the will of the father.

No person who persists in their rebellion if going to be forgiven by God. Salvation is not by accepting some provision or package like you are alluding to. Salvation is via repentance and faith and being raised up by the power of God and it involves ceasing from all known sin.

Your "future sin" so-called logic is non-sequitor. Just as we have to accept our redemption provided by Christ, by acknowledging Him as our Saviour, we have to accept and confess that we have sinned when we do, in order to receive forgiveness. Just because we don't know the sins we will commit doesn't mean they can't be covered by the blood of Christ. God is perfect and would not provide conditional redemption. Our redemption is UNCONDITIONAL. Your lack of understanding it or accepting it, does NOT negate it.

You are contradicting yourself.

You are setting forth the conditions of "acknowledging Him as our Saviour" and "accept and confess that we have sinned" "in order to receive forgiveness." You then say it is unconditional.

It is just that the conditions that you set forth are not demanding because you have removed the forsaking of sin in order that one walk in the light. Your conditions are more akin to a mental acknowledgment of some facts.

You present the redemption as a package and all one has to do is accept and receive the package. It is something abstract apart from the actual state of how one is living. That is now what the Bible teaches.

Jesus came for this...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

It is not a package at all. Redemption involves being made pure. If there is no purity there is no redemption. The two are mutually exclusive in the same way that rebellion and obedience are mutually exclusive. A saint and a sinner are also mutually exclusive, you are one or the other.

I don't need to explain away any of God's word when it is clear. We must strive, run the race, work out our salvation. The Bible clearly teaches we can fall away. It clearly teaches that faith without works is dead. It also clearly teaches IF we sin, we have an Advocate, a Mediator to call on, and He(Jesus) goes before God to vouch for us.

What does all that mean if all your future sins are already forgiven? Fall away from what? Why must you strive, run the race, work out your salvation?

I am sure you mean those things in the context of a gradual application because of the way you applied 1Joh 1:8 earlier. Thus the Christian under your theology runs the race but stops along the way to engage the lusts of the flesh every now and then right? Of course he shouldn't do it but he will. Is that correct?

Again, I did NOT blow off your sin questions. Ask them again, without a lot of clutter, and I will do my best to answer them.

Well you didn't answer them again so it seems like you have blown them off. Why do I need to keep asking them? Those questions are still there, just scroll up. I will ask them again though.

Does a child molester has to stop molesting children BEFORE they can be forgiven by God?

or

Does a serial murderer have to stop murdering people BEFORE they can be forgiven by God?

or

Does a pornography watcher have to stop watching porn BEFORE they can be forgiven by God?

I am amazed though, that you know what my mind is thinking when in reality ONLY God knows. Are you purporting to be like God? Coming to an erroneous conclusion as regards my statements only serves to confirm you do NOT understand what God's word says in the scriptures I have provided. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I have not advocated replacing repent, obey, strive, dig deep, count the cost, deny self, pick up your cross, go and sin no more.

By necessary implication you actually do. You appear to disconnect the "repent, obey, strive, dig deep, count the cost, deny self, pick up your cross, and go and sin no more" from salvation and even eternal life. What is it connected to then? A better life now or something?

You have clearly stated that one must "confess they are a sinner and accept redemption." That is not what was preached in Acts or by Jesus. Jesus taught a lot of things about salvation and they all apply together.

A car needs a driver, gas, an engine, wheels, steering wheel, gearbox, and a drive shaft etc. All the components work together so that the car will go from point A to point B.

The road to eternal life is the same. One must dig deep, count the cost, go and sin no more, be a doer of the word, deny oneself and pick up their cross, and endure to the end and many other things. It all works together and is the walk of faith that leads to eternal life.

Salvation is not some package and it is not forensic or positional in application. It is actual and lived out and the deeds done in the body reflect the state of the soul. Any person living in sin is not saved. Saints are not sinners.

I do have one question for you. When was the last time YOU sinned?

I sinned today, and I confessed it immediately.

I miss the mark often and I confess it too. As far as sins of the flesh, those are out of the question. I cannot do those.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Digger]

Hm. Is the future included in "for all time"?

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Heb 10:14

If one is being sanctified then they have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust and they are adding to their faith. They are not committing willful sin for that means they have not escaped the corruption that is through lust. Their flesh is not crucified in that case and they need to repent.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Obedience ------------> Righteousness ------------> Holiness ---------> Eternal Life

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

 

[Stan53]

You are viewing salvation as merely forensic, as something abstract. Thus you believe that one can be saved and yet still be engaged in vile behaviour.

I'm sorry, where did I say this?

You would have a serial killer saved and killing less and less in his post salvation walk correct?

A ridiculous question but I can safely assume that if God did draw a serial killer to the point where he was saved, then I am pretty sure he will no longer do that. I personally don't know any serial killers, do you?

I have known alcoholics who were also smokers. They were saved and gave up their drinking but didn't give up their smoking for quite a while. Do you think they were NOT saved then?

When does the porn watcher have to stop watching porn? When does the child molester have to stop molesting? You must believe that they don't have to because they get saved in their sins.

Again ridiculous questions but I promised to ask so. Again as in the case of the serial killer, if God is able to draw them to a point where they confess Christ, I would think they would let go of these habits right away. Of course porn is addictive and I think many men suffer from that addiction. It can be a battle but God gives more grace. Paedophiles are a different kettle of fish. This is a deep seated psychological issue but again God gives mores grace.

There you go trying to separate Rom 2:7 from the passage. It does not stand on its own, Paul is teaching about how God is going to render to everyone according to their deeds then he gives the examples of the righteous and the unrighteous.
You twist it around and then call it context? That is quite a feat of mental gymnastics. Why not just accept it for what it plainly says?
Reality is what is real and mental games do not change reality. We either align our opinions with reality as it is presented to us or we deceive ourselves. You are just deceiving yourself by trying to pull Rom 2:7 out of that passage by saying it "stands alone."

I have properly exegeted these scriptures. You actually have no response so your course of action is to denigrate my solid conclusions. Did you do this a lot before you became a Christian? I assume you do it less these days?

How does any of that negate all men being judged according to their deeds? You are tap dancing.
Read the warning to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 for God sure saw their works and called upon most of those churches to repent.
What we do matters.

I'm not trying to negate anything but nice side step. Read the verses as I responded to your assertions with, and respond within those parameters. You are adept at going in circles. If you have a different view of the scriptures I quoted, then state it.
We weren't discussing Rev 2 & 3 and we sure weren't discussing repentance. We were talking about the judgement seat. Another straw man.
Yes what we do, does matter.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint no.

Goods verses. Did you forget what you wanted to use them for?

Go reread all my posts, I have supplied abundant scripture.

Yeh mostly out of context or misapplied. I have read all your posts on this thread and what I addressed to elicit the above response, did NOT contain ANY scripture. I guess it must be hard to keep track of your own reasonings and rational?

In response to...
You claimed that the deeds of the body have nothing to do with salvation when clearly there are scriptures which speak of "striving," "working together with God, "working fully to accomplish," of course all in the context of the leading of the grace of God.

Again you ask this, and word it in such a way that you mix the ACT of salvation and it's supporting scriptures, with the ACTS of walking in Christ, as you note, by striving. Your first 2 answers in post #133 is what you said you believed salvation was, and what you believed Eternal Life was based on our walk with Christ. Are you now changing your answer? What do you expect we will receive in addition to Eternal Life that would be incremental based on our level of good works? You think the more good deeds we do will get us a bigger plot of land on the New Earth? Maybe a higher position? Maybe some kind of supernatural powers?

As I mentioned earlier you incorrectly view salvation as some abstract package that you receive. The Bible teaches that salvation is a present state where one has been freed from the bondage and condemnation of sin. A person who is saved is not yielding to the passions and desires of their flesh and being drawn into sin. They have ceased from sin exactly a 1Pet 4:1-2 clearly states.

Hmmm, another definition of salvation that differs from the one you gave in post 133 and above. You may want to take a mental inventory fo all the different definitions you have and boil them down to one for us.
1 Peter 4:1-2? OK let's see, Peter writes, Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.
Well this does sound like MOST Christians I know, including me. What exactly is it you think this passage says? That we don't sin anymore? I would call that assumption wishful thinking. Oh BTW, have you achieved this goal of not sinning anymore?




Let's take a look shall we.

1Joh 2:1 uses the word IF which means sin is not the forgone conclusion.

Good start

You originally posted 1Joh 1:8 as evidence that sin IS a forgone conclusion and that those who say that they have ceased from sin are liars.

Really? Where did I do this? What post #

The sin John is referring to in 1Joh 2:1 is non-presumptuous sin. We know that because in 1Joh 3 he writes...
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Funny I looked that up(non-presumptuous sin)in the Greek...it ain't there!
1 John 3:7-10 reads, Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

The children of God are made manifest to the world by their deeds. They are not producing the fruit of sin in their lives.

Sin is NOT a fruit, it can be the reason why some Christians stop producing fruit.

The children of God are slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
A servant of sin is someone who yields to it as Paul clearly states in Rom 6:16.

I understand the word here in Romans. I have no problem with it, as far as it goes. I tend to take it in and include verse 18 where Paul says; You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Are you trying to say that when people sin periodically, they are not really saved?

Sin is yielded to in this fashion.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Those that are Christ's do not sin in this fashion because they have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

What FASHION are you talking about here? James is clear but you are not.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Thus they don't yield their members to unrighteousness.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Yes, yes, good verses...what is your point?

Yet you teach the opposite because you used 1Joh 1:8 to refute my contention that the sins of the flesh stop. You used 1Joh 1:8 to imply that the sin cannot stop and that I was a liar.

Really...again what post was that in?

Why don't you try QUOTING these statements you say I make, so we can deal with them in context, instead of you alluding to something I may or may NOT have said. I'm pretty sure I never called you a liar. I John 1:8 says what it says, and it's repeated in verse 10. All I can do is point it out for ALL to see. I'm not quite sure why you have a problem with it, but then again you don't address my posts point by point, and you add all kinds of extraneous matter to your responses, sometimes twice, as in this particular post. This tends to muddy up the waters. Is this your intent?

 

[evenifigoalone]

I just feel like you're kinda over complicating this, and that's more likely to turn people away from salvation, not towards it.

Salvation is a gift. The Bible says so. You don't have to work to keep a gift.
It also describes it as being born again, being born into the family of God, etc. If you're born into a family, you can't be unborn.
In Jesus' parable of the prodigal son, the son went off and did his own thing, willingly. But his father took him back, no questions asked. He was still his father's son, even while he squandered his inheritance.

You can take verses from the Bible and make them say almost whatever you want to. I'm not trying to accuse you, please don't take that wrong.
The kind of things you're saying just go against everything I've ever learned about the Bible, both from private study and study with and/or from others.



I'm bowing out now. I'm not really fond of these sorts of discussions. They get super confusing because no one can agree and everyone seems to be able to capture enough verses to make them seem right.

In any case, thanks for the discussion. It's always a good thing to learn about different points of view.

I also apologize if I seemed uptight yesterday. I had a lot of my mind and by the end of the day was feeling stressed out. Also sorry if I seem uptight now.

Good day, sir.:nod

 

[Stan53]

So now you are doing what you did with Romans 2:7. You did not like Rom 2:7 in context so you said that it stands alone and is not in the context of God rendering to every man according to his deeds.

Context is context. You didn't use it properly and I pointed that out. Nuff said.

Now you are saying that the "past sins" in Rom 3:25 applies to those who died before Christ came and thus it does not negate that "sins are forgiven in advance." That is very creative but I guess you have to say something to explain away what the verse says.

You're going around in circles now. I said what I said. If you don't understand English then we may as well stop this discussion. The context is the context. You use words and versions with words that aren't in the scriptures so if I correct you, it is to show the proper thought that is being conveyed. Stop using eisegesis to support your doctrine.

How do you explain away what Peter wrote?
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

2 Pet 1:5-9
For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
There is NOTHING to explain here. I think it is clear. This is exactly how Christians should walk in Christ.

Why would pro 28:13 clearly state that sin must be forsaken in order to be forgiven if forgiveness is already granted for future sins? That would be a contradiction because it would mean that the sin does not have to be forsaken.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
The same with Isa 55:7.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
You have a conundrum on your hands. If sins are forgiven in advance then those verses do not make sense.

You assume the OT/OC has validity in the NT/NC, and you would be wrong. The conundrum would be WHY you think this to be relative to our discussion?

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 3:19-20
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.

Exactly WHAT version of the Bible do you use? BTW, Peter is talking to the Jews here.

You have removed the forsaking of sin as resulting from a genuine repentance in order that you can teach that future sins are forgiven in advance.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that future sins are forgiven in advance.
Yet you believe it and have to force such a view into the scripture. Quoting verses about being redeemed don't undo what the Bible teaches about repentance.

I have said so such thing, except for maybe in your mind. No one can possibly be saved if they don't repent and forsake the lifestyle they were occupying when they came to Christ. I certainly did. Didn't you?
Again you seem to have problems understanding what I am trying to communicate but instead of using the quote feature on this forum, like you are supposed to, you put words in my mouth and accuse me of things I am not doing. Is this how your normally carry on discussion in here? If I say something you don't agree with, then please quote it and call me on it.
If you don't understand what redemption IS, then I suggest you read up on it. I have quoted enough verses for you to understand, if you want to.

No person who persists in their rebellion if going to be forgiven by God. Salvation is not by accepting some provision or package like you are alluding to. Salvation is via repentance and faith and being raised up by the power of God and it involves ceasing from all known sin.

I'll address this one LAST time. Salvation is defined by Romans 10:9-13;
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.†12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€

If you cannot accept or understand this, then I can't really help you.

You are contradicting yourself.
You are setting forth the conditions of "acknowledging Him as our Saviour" and "accept and confess that we have sinned" "in order to receive forgiveness." You then say it is unconditional.
It is just that the conditions that you set forth are not demanding because you have removed the forsaking of sin in order that one walk in the light. Your conditions are more akin to a mental acknowledgement of some facts.

You contradict me, I don't me.
I am not setting any conditions, those are in the Bible. What ones do you disagree with?

You present the redemption as a package and all one has to do is accept and receive the package. It is something abstract apart from the actual state of how one is living. That is now what the Bible teaches.

Redemption IS a package of sorts, His name is Jesus. All we have to do is accept Him as our Saviour. What is so hard to understand about that? The abstract thing is your concept, not mine, not God's and it is not the Bible's. The Bible has been teaching the Good News for a very long time.

Jesus came for this...
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
It is not a package at all. Redemption involves being made pure. If there is no purity there is no redemption. The two are mutually exclusive in the same way that rebellion and obedience are mutually exclusive. A saint and a sinner are also mutually exclusive, you are one or the other.

OK, Titus 2:11-15;
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No†to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. 15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

How can you quote this verse in Titus and not see ALL it has to say?
Purification is a process. It doesn't happen in a blink of an eye. If it did, no one would sin after salvation. Since we all have, by your reckoning we are NOT saved?
"I DON'T THINK SO, TIM."

What does all that mean if all your future sins are already forgiven? Fall away from what? Why must you strive, run the race, work out your salvation?

Let me try one last time to to convey this to you.
Jesus died ONCE, for ALL sin. He died ONCE for MY sin. He died ONCE for YOUR sin. If we acknowledge that we are sinners and need Jesus as our Saviour then we confess our sins and ask Him to be our Saviour. We are then SAVED.
His blood covers ALL our sin. God does not see our sin. When God looks at us, He sees the Blood of Jesus and sees that our sin has been paid for.

I am sure you mean those things in the context of a gradual application because of the way you applied 1Joh 1:8 earlier. Thus the Christian under your theology runs the race but stops along the way to engage the lusts of the flesh every now and then right? Of course he shouldn't do it but he will. Is that correct?

It's interesting you use the words "lust of the flesh" instead of sin. This would appear to be a sore point in your view. God views ALL sin as unacceptable, probably just as much as you feel about "lusts of the flesh".
Thankfully we have the Epistles of John to work our way through these SIN issues, no matter what they happen to be. I think PRIDE is more harmful to some than "lusts of the flesh". Lust of the flesh are easily identifiable to us, but pride can easily be hidden within self-righteousness, which is also the main reason a lot of Christians think they DON'T sin.

By necessary implication you actually do. You appear to disconnect the "repent, obey, strive, dig deep, count the cost, deny self, pick up your cross, and go and sin no more" from salvation and even eternal life. What is it connected to then? A better life now or something?

Well that would be your assessment, which would be WRONG.

You have clearly stated that one must "confess they are a sinner and accept redemption." That is not what was preached in Acts or by Jesus. Jesus taught a lot of things about salvation and they all apply together.

Well then you go ahead and refute me by providing concrete proof via scripture that clearly shows I am wrong, and what IS taught in Acts or by Jesus that contradicts what I have claimed. It would also be nice to show what post # I claimed these things in.

The road to eternal life is the same. One must dig deep, count the cost, go and sin no more, be a doer of the word, deny oneself and pick up their cross, and endure to the end and many other things. It all works together and is the walk of faith that leads to eternal life.

Yes I agree

Salvation is not some package and it is not forensic or positional in application. It is actual and lived out and the deeds done in the body reflect the state of the soul. Any person living in sin is not saved. Saints are not sinners.

Salvation IS what I have said it is. You do like the word 'forensic' don't you? Word of the day?

I miss the mark often and I confess it too. As far as sins of the flesh, those are out of the question. I cannot do those.

OK well some progress. At least I know you are not one of those 'sinless' people.

BTW I love the book of Hebrews.

Now at this point I am finished with you in this thread. I don't have the desire nor patience to put this much into these exchange, especially when they get so convoluted.

 

[ivdavid]

Your doctrine turns actual sin (your 2) into a malady where actual sin resuls from inborn sin (your 1).

Yes, I did mention that sin(2)[act of transgressing the law] is an expression of sin(1)[a corruption of the nature, constantly rebellious against God's will]. And yes, I also(not solely) do see the state of man in the flesh as one who is suffering from a malady and who needs the Physician(Luke 5:31).

But I wouldn't hold the above statement in the manner you've meant it. You seem to be holding an underlying premise that "men who are necessitated to sin(2) by the state they are born in cannot be held responsible for their sinning" - whereas I don't accept that. I believe all that I've stated so far AND I believe man is accountable for all that he does, independent of his ability to do good or not.

So you see, you have gone from the doctrine of original sin(I still am unclear if we're referring to exactly the same thing there) - to concluding that it implies man is not responsible for his sins - and therefore call it a very grave false doctrine. But what if this inference is not connected in the manner you see it? If I can hold the doctrine of original sin to be true AND at the same time believe that it in no way negates man's accountability - am I still believing into a false doctrine?

As to where we differ on this connecting inference - we know that God's ways are not our ways. And our worldly way does call it unfair to hold someone responsible for something he cannot help control or alter. And that's because I believe we've got it all wrong - we determine responsibility based on the doer(the one who is held responsible) and not the determiner(the one who assigns such responsibility). According to the world system, the determiner first evaluates what the doer is capable of and then assigns him responsibility within his scope.

But actually, assigning responsibility deals with the expecting of people to adhere to certain ideals - and as I've written quite often, ideals are independent of the doers. They are the outcome of the will of God where He is righteous in demanding His ideal to be conformed to, according to His nature, independent of the doer(man). How do you see God's law of works(Lev 18:5) - that man shall live, by doing His commandments - when no man shall live by the righteousness of the law[but by faith, the law not being of faith(Gal 3:10-12)]?

 

[ivdavid]

The early church denied such notions and it was not until Augustine that the opposite view (which you hold) became established into orthodoxy.

Since the doctrine I believe into was not taught me by man, present or early church times, I don't think its historical origin should have any bearing on our discussion. I believe into what God has taught me in Scripture - and since this would be the position of all, we'll simply have to let Scriptures alone affirm what God is teaching.

There are two views on this[original sin]...Traducianism (Seminal Identity) ...Creationism (Federal Head)

Have you represented these views accurately here? I don't see why federal headship has to imply that sin is imputed to the soul by God because of Adam's transgression. There is absolutely no imputation of sin to the soul except in the unique case of Christ who knew no sin - so His righteousness may be imputed to us. Let me also add here that I believe imputed righteousness for our justification is true AND I believe that Christ sanctifies us ie infuses us[in the spirit and not in the flesh] with His righteousness too.

God creates each soul but the nature each soul is birthed in could either be the flesh, from flesh, or the spirit from the Spirit. The former is our physical birth into the world and the latter is our spiritual born-from-above regeneration. The flesh is our self-nature which has sin(1) in it, passed on in the flesh, while the spirit is the godly nature through which God works His good in us.

Federal headship does not place inherited guilt or condemnation on us because of Adam's transgression. Adam is rather the representative of what would have happened to each of us in the flesh by ourselves if we had been in his place. Assume you or I had been in Adam's place and the same sequence of events happened - it is imperative that we too would have been corrupted by sin and that sin would have entered the world in our flesh. Instead of replaying this inevitable sequence over and over again in each man's case just to prove that our self-natures(flesh) is corruptible and will get corrupted, God held the first man to represent each man's case.

Whether directly or indirectly you are blaming God for sin. While you may state that God did not make man a sinner directly to avoid directly blaming God you are still indirectly blaming God for allowing men to be sinners from birth.

I'm sure none of us are blaming God for sin(1) entering the world through Adam. If that typifies each of us, then why blame God now?

Under this belief system a sinner will view his sin as the result of how he was born not as a result of choices that he actually made.

I don't see why this inference is true either. I do see my sins(2) as a result of the sin(1) I was born in AND I do see it as a result of the choices that I actually made - since man's choices stem from his nature in any case.

A faulty view of the nature of man leads to all sorts of error.

I'm in agreement on this. Firstly, what do you mean by the "nature of man"? Is the nature of man a mere description of who he is based on his choices Or is it the very source of all his choices?

 

[heymikey80]

You know the difference between justification & sanctification most likely?

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Heb 10:14

I know the word used in Greek here -- extensively. The word means the accomplishment has reached its goal in excellence, and requires nothing further. The process has been completed.

When you reach your telos, your journey has ended completely and excellently.

 

[heymikey80]

If one is being sanctified then they have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust and they are adding to their faith. They are not committing willful sin for that means they have not escaped the corruption that is through lust. Their flesh is not crucified in that case and they need to repent.

People being sanctified by Christ are those He sanctifies; nothing more, and certainly nothing less. To require everyone to escape corruption in order to be sanctified by Christ would place cart before horse.

Christ gives His people knowledge for life and godliness. Christ gives His people the Holy Spirit to empower us to engage in holy living. Christ gives His power as advocate before the Father to adopt us. It's futile to say we have to do something, to get this to happen. Christ's sacrifice has happened -- those Christ is sanctifying, He has completed their sanctification for all time through His sacrifice.

So it's happened. It's happening. And of course, it's going to happen. We're in progress on a contract, a covenant with the all-true God of the universe.

 

[farouk]

Romans 3.23 says 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God'.

It's not just a question of nurture, but nature.