Understanding the Incarnation

[Dougcho]

That's true, he was completely God before he took on a full human nature as well.

The Word was completely God before He became flesh-human-Jesus.

 

[Dougcho]

There is something to be said for Jesus being the name of God incarnate, who John says was known both as the Word and the Son of God. That is, Jesus, the God-man, came to be, but prior to that he was just God the Son.

No, sorry, but Jesus was never God the Son
UNTIL He was miraculously born of the Holy Spirit
and UNTIL the Word became flesh-human-Jesus (John 1:14).

They both were instrumental in the "creation" of Jesus, the Son of God.

Note: He was the Son of God because God the Holy Spirit
played the role of His "father".

 

[Free]

No, sorry, but Jesus was never God the Son
UNTIL He was miraculously born of the Holy Spirit
and UNTIL the Word became flesh-human-Jesus (John 1:14).

They both were instrumental in the "creation" of Jesus, the Son of God.

Note: He was the Son of God because God the Holy Spirit
played the role of His "father".

You never responded to THIS post.

 

[Dougcho]

You never responded to THIS post.

Sorry, what was the post #?

 

[Dave...]

IMO ... this refers to the Word,
who was a Member of the Trinity before the Incarnation.
Jesus, the Son of God, and the Son of Man (as He called Himself),
who was fully Man and fully God ...
could NOT have come down from heaven UNTIL:
He was born of the virgin Mary,
and after 33 years ascended up into heaven.
Then, He could come down from heaven!
Why don't the pastors teach truths such as this?

There is always an overlapping in the Godhead that we can never completely separate. In John 14:16-17 Jesus calls Himself the Spirit of truth and said that He dwells with you (Flesh) and will be in you (Holy Spirit). Here we see the overlapping of the Holy Spirit and Jesus as One. In the Old Testament, Jesus was here as the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth. And yet still distinct from the Holy Spirit. Does that loosen or change anything with the question at hand? In other words, could the Holy Spirit ascend and descend before the incarnation? I think so. Would that qualifying as Jesus ascending and descending in the OT?

The OT Jews argued all the time about how impossible it was going to be for the Messiah to fulfill all the conditions needed to fill be be the true Messiah. Maybe they never considered the virgin birth for starters. Sometimes we just don't get to see all the answers yet.

Jesus being born of a virgin, did not inherit a sinful nature. He was both fully God and fully man. His being fully man was not a subtraction to His being fully God, but an addition.

"My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work" (John 4:34).

"I will be with you a little longer, and then I am going to him who sent me" (John 10:33).

Dave

 

[Free]

Sorry, what was the post #?

Just click the link, it will bring you there.

 

[Dougcho]

Unless I am mistaken, he is referring to the Theology Online forums, not CF.

Yes, ad I apologize for any misunderstanding!

 

[Dougcho]

Jesus being born of a virgin, did not inherit a sinful nature.

Haven't I explained why I believe Jesus inherited Mary's DNA,
which contained man's inherited sin nature?
(Both parents contribute to a baby's DNA.)

 

[Dave...]

Haven't I explained why I believe Jesus inherited Mary's DNA,
which contained man's inherited sin nature?
(Both parents contribute to a baby's DNA.)

Hi Doug

I meant to post this earlier, but I had a power outage. It gave me more time to think this through. My head is in the clouds because I've been sick for a week and quit coffee since I couldn't stomach it while I was sick anyways. It's an adjustment for sure.

Anyways

I know the evidence of the sinful nature can be seen in the DNA, but how did you come to the conclusion that this is also the conduit by which the sinful nature is passed on?

It seems like a reasonable assumption, but then we can also ask, since mans DNA is different than a woman's, is it possible that God only meant for our sinful nature to be passed on through man only? Then we must ask, if it is passed on through the physical, the spiritual corruption, which is and was complete from the beginning, must also be the result of the physical. That seems backwards.

From the evidence in scripture. I know the sinful nature is passed on through Adam, but is this a once for all, leaving the door open for your interpretation? Also, I see evidence in scripture, that the physical part of our corruption has grown throughout history. Evidenced by how long people lived in the past. And one could argue circumstantially that part of the reason the Law of Moses came to be was to curb the effects of the physical corruption. That is, not marrying close relatives.

And Jewish tradition seems to hold to the idea that it is mans seed is the conduit. It's just tradition, but if true, that does establish the fact that people in the Jewish community seen the sin nature as uniquely passed down through man. Though, even if correct, that could just be a physical picture of a spiritual truth from and OT mind set.

You don't need to answer all this, I was just thinking out loud and wanted to write it down before I lost it. The first question is important though. Thanks.

Dave

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi Doug

I meant to post this earlier, but I had a power outage. It gave me more time to think this through. My head is in the clouds because I've been sick for a week and quit coffee since I couldn't stomach it while I was sick anyways. It's an adjustment for sure.

I hope you get well quick.
I quit drinking (decaf) coffee a few week ago, and immediately saw how much whiter my teeth seemed.
Silver lining ?

Anyways
I know the evidence of the sinful nature can be seen in the DNA, but how did you come to the conclusion that this is also the conduit by which the sinful nature is passed on?

How is a nature seen in DNA ?

 

[Dave...]

I hope you get well quick.
I quit drinking (decaf) coffee a few week ago, and immediately saw how much whiter my teeth seemed.
Silver lining ?

Hi Hope.

Thanks, I think I'm over it now.

The coffee was making me irritable. I didn't like that. I feel so much better, but I am missing the caffeine energy.

How is a nature seen in DNA ?

Do you mean how does nature work within DNA?

I still believe that Adam's headship, who the sin nature was passed down through to all man, was a model that didn't end with Adam. Is their a physical element to it? If so can that physical element somehow pass over women for legal (responsibility of headship)? The idea of the headship continues all throughout scripture.

Dave

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi Hope.
Thanks, I think I'm over it now.
The coffee was making me irritable. I didn't like that. I feel so much better, but I am missing the caffeine energy.

Don't let something have a hold over you that may be seen as an addiction.

Do you mean how does nature work within DNA?

Well you said..."I know the evidence of the sinful nature can be seen in the DNA,", so I was wondering, How ?

I still believe that Adam's headship, who the sin nature was passed down through to all man, was a model that didn't end with Adam. Is their a physical element to it? If so can that physical element somehow pass over women for legal (responsibility of headship)? The idea of the headship continues all throughout scripture.

If Adam had a sin nature, wouldn't that have come from God ?
Adam was created in the image of God and the Word, so where would any nature come from ?

 

[Dave...]

Well you said..."I know the evidence of the sinful nature can be seen in the DNA,", so I was wondering, How ?

Hi Hope

The defense system that we have in the natural selection process, seems to favor the DNA without the flaws over the ones with them. Most of us consider ourselves to be without defect, but if we look carefully, we can see a whole bunch of defects in ourselves. Like symmetry in the face. One arm or leg is longer than the other. There are flaws. Lots of them. Adam and Eve had no flaws until they sinned. They would have not known death and lived forever had they not sinned. Those flaws have been progressively getting worse through the generations since then. We see the progression in those flaws evidenced by how long people lived from then to now. Back then, just after the fall, 900 years old. Now, 75ish give or take. These are all mistakes from the DNA. They have to be. But, when we are home with the Father, we will be physically resurrected, once again without flaw physically.

If Adam had a sin nature, wouldn't that have come from God ?
Adam was created in the image of God and the Word, so where would any nature come from ?

What if the sinful nature did not come from God, but from the absence, or separation from God? Which puts an interesting twist of the incarnation. Meaning that Jesus being born of a virgin was only to fulfill OT prophecy, not to keep Him from inheriting a sinful nature, which would be a separation from God, which would be impossible since He was fully God and fully man. That would explain why we cannot do anything good, unless God gives it to us. Total depravity separate from Him. He is the good tree, and we, in the flesh are the bad tree.

Was think of starting a thread on that. I hope that I didn't derail this one.

Dave

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi Hope

The defense system that we have in the natural selection process, seems to favor the DNA without the flaws over the ones with them. Most of us consider ourselves to be without defect, but if we look carefully, we can see a whole bunch of defects in ourselves. Like symmetry in the face. One arm or leg is longer than the other. There are flaws. Lots of them. Adam and Eve had no flaws until they sinned. They would have not known death and lived forever had they not sinned. Those flaws have been progressively getting worse through the generations since then. We see the progression in those flaws evidenced by how long people lived from then to now. Back then, just after the fall, 900 years old. Now, 75ish give or take. These are all mistakes from the DNA. They have to be. But, when we are home with the Father, we will be physically resurrected, once again without flaw physically.

OK, I see the perspective from which you have presented your POV.
But how can a nature be inherited ?
A nature has nothing to do with the physical, as it is mental/spiritual/psychological.

What if the sinful nature did not come from God, but from the absence, or separation from God? Which puts an interesting twist of the incarnation. Meaning that Jesus being born of a virgin was only to fulfill OT prophecy, not to keep Him from inheriting a sinful nature, which would be a separation from God, which would be impossible since He was fully God and fully man. That would explain why we cannot do anything good, unless God gives it to us. Total depravity separate from Him. He is the good tree, and we, in the flesh are the bad tree.

I feel that natures come about from the teachings of parents at an early age.
If mom and dad are cheating liars, the kids will tend in that direction.

Was think of starting a thread on that. I hope that I didn't derail this one.
Dave

OK...define "incarnation".

 

[Dave...]

OK, I see the perspective from which you have presented your POV.
But how can a nature be inherited ?
A nature has nothing to do with the physical, as it is mental/spiritual/psychological.

A separation from God. We inherit that. We inherit original sin (Psalm 51:5), dead in our sin (Ephesians 2:1), from one man, Adam. (Romans 5:12), it's our nature apart from God (Romans 8:7-8.). There are physical affects as a result of this spiritual death, and these are inherited physically. So, spiritual causes physical, spiritual inherits spiritual, physical inherits physical.

I feel that natures come about from the teachings of parents at an early age.
If mom and dad are cheating liars, the kids will tend in that direction.

Some of it can. There are boundaries set by our sinful nature, though. Everything from the flesh is sin.

OK...define "incarnation".

God took on human form in the Body of Jesus Christ.

Dave

 

[hawkman]

Adam and Eve had no flaws until they sinned.

So , no sinful nature in their DNA at the beginning .

I know the evidence of the sinful nature can be seen in the DNA,

Who put the sinful nature in Adam and Eve's DNA and when did they put it there ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

A separation from God.

I won't condemn a nearly born baby to hell.

We inherit that. We inherit original sin (Psalm 51:5), dead in our sin (Ephesians 2:1), from one man, Adam. (Romans 5:12), it's our nature apart from God (Romans 8:7-8.). There are physical affects as a result of this spiritual death, and these are inherited physically. So, spiritual causes physical, spiritual inherits spiritual, physical inherits physical.

Too metaphysical for me...
You are implying that even children of the reborn are sinful.

Some of it can. There are boundaries set by our sinful nature, though. Everything from the flesh is sin.

That is too much of a generalization for me.

God took on human form in the Body of Jesus Christ.

Actually, it was the Word that took on human form.

 

[Dave...]

So , no sinful nature in their DNA at the beginning .

Who put the sinful nature in Adam and Eve's DNA and when did they put it there ?

Hi Hawk

I believe that the physical is not the nature, but the result of the nature. When Adam and Eve sinned, the penalty for sin is death. It's a spiritual separation from God. The physical affects from that were very minor in the beginning, but grew over time. That wasn't there before they sinned. It had to be in the DNA somewhere afterwards. Because if it wasn't, they wouldn't have died. I can't dot all the I's and cross all the T's, but as far as the mechanics of it go, that's what I got so far. I believe that's in line with scripture so far.

Adam and Eve had been separated from God. That's the sinful nature. That was passed onto all man through Adam. The physical effects resulted from that spiritual separation, from sin. Very minor, but there none the less. When Adam and Eve had children, those children were born separated from God, that's spiritual death. And also inherited some of the flaws physically from their parents, and added to that over their lifetime because of sin. And then their children, and so on ...

Dave

 

[Dave...]

I won't condemn a nearly born baby to hell.

Babies are born innocent due to their ignorance, in a way , a lot like Adam and Eve. Only babies grow into the knowledge of good and evil and will be accountable when that happens. If they die before that happens, instant heaven.

Too metaphysical for me...
You are implying that even children of the reborn are sinful.

Not metaphysical, but Biblical. Being separate from God would make anybody sinful. Anything from our flesh is sin.

That is too much of a generalization for me.

A parents teaching will not overcome our sinful nature. Without Him, we can do nothing.

Actually, it was the Word that took on human form.

Yes, I agree, the Word is God.

Dave

 

[Hopeful 2]

Babies are born innocent due to their ignorance, in a way , a lot like Adam and Eve. Only babies grow into the knowledge of good and evil and will be accountable when that happens. If they die before that happens, instant heaven.

I agree.
Anyone who has not chosen to commit sin is innocent.

Not metaphysical, but Biblical. Being separate from God would make anybody sinful. Anything from our flesh is sin.

By "flesh", I assume you refer to the "worldly oriented mind", and not "skin and bones" ?
Right ?
Sin separates man from God, so those too young to commit sin are not separated from God.

A parents teaching will not overcome our sinful nature. Without Him, we can do nothing.

A parents teachings can go a long way towards a child who is knowledgeable about the Lord, and is willing to not only please his parents, but also God.

Yes, I agree, the Word is God.

Hmmm.