Mary, the mother of the Lord

[Vinny37]

[In Luke 1, Elizabeth refers to Mary as the mother of the Lord. So when Elizabeth called Mary the mother of the Lord, is Elizabeth referring to Mary being the mother of a human Lord or a God Lord? Lk.1:43: “And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”]

I side with Nestorius, who feared that the popular term Θεοτοκος/‌Theotokos, made Mary seem to be a member of deity (isn’t one who bears God, God?): Islam often assumes that this is basic Christianity; if it were I might become a Muslim. Nestorius insisted on the devotional amendment, Χριστοτοκος/‌Christotokos (bearer/‌mother of Christ). Theotokos could also misinterpret Christ’s acts as acts of deity (voilà Apollinarianism), rather than interpret them as acts of humanity in co‑operation with deity (Mt.12:28). Nestorianism was a corruption of Nestorius’ teaching by his followers—don’t damn the source by the stream!

Elizabeth, lacking a Christian trinitarianism, would hardly have assumed that deity was within Mary. However knowing Mary’s husband to be David’s inheriting heir, by revelation Elizabeth divined that sinlessly Mary bore the legal inheritor of David’s throne, so lordship would be appropriate. Incidentally I am unaware of any English Bible version, other than the 1864 Emphatic Diaglott (Ben Wilson who preferred the wooden ‘the lord of me’, to ‘my lord’), saying ‘the lord’ instead of ‘my lord’, let alone ‘the lord’ in the sense of Yahweh.

I agree that reality went deeper than Elizabeth’s revelation, even as it did with John the Baptist who misread what was messiah was (Mt.11:3). Jesus was/is the permanent temporal mode of the eternal uncreated second person of deity, so is the incarnate son (lacking the omni’s) in contrast to the noncarnate son. ‌Christotokos focuses on Jesus’ humanity without denying his deificity. The then popular devotional term Theotokos had gained too much traction and simply steamrolled over Nestorius, calling his name mud. Mary has been caught in the middle, some deeming her too highly, and some dismissing her too lowly, most excluding the middle ground.

 

[Runningman]

Then so can Num. 23:19 be taken figuratively, it is describing God’s immaculate character, that he would never lie or falter like Balaam did in that particular context. His way is not our ways, and his thoughts are higher than ours. This is never meant to be weaponized to deny Jesus’s deity. God would appear as a man because that’s the only way to communicate with his people.

If one were so inclined, they could take every single last thing in the Bible figuratively. I am pretty sure the Bible was never meant to be weaponized to submit to our personal plans and desires.

Perhaps we should begin with what is common sense. Obviously a human didn't create the universe, right? Well, we know God created the universe. Therefore when God said "I am not a man" then that isn't figurative, that's literal. I guess 99% of all people whether they be Christian, secular, or otherwise would agree with this point because it isn't difficult to agree with this since it's reasonable.

We also know that God doesn't change or is immutable. Since God isn't a man who created the universe, God said He doesn't change, then becoming a man would be a change that is incompatible with the nature of God.

Numbers 23:19 says God is not a man or son of man that He "should lie" or "that He should change His mind." Meaning that God doesn't change his mind or lie like a human is capable of doing. God cannot lie or compromise His standards for anything but humans can.

God also cannot be tempted with sin like a man or a son of man can be, yet Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are yet without sin. That's Scriptural.

 

[Runningman]

Hmm, that sounds awfully like pantheism. He did leave his fingerprints everywhere such as the golden ratio of 0.618, but that’s just proof of his providence, the golden ratio is not God himself, we don’t worship the golden ratio, we worship God; but since God is ethereal spirit, how do we properly worship him? See, that’s why he did become a man and dwell among us, so we can worship God properly through this medium. If you deny this medium, you deny God himself, and you’re doomed to worship a golden calf. Ancient Israelites weren’t worshiping a pagan God, they thought they were worshiping YHWH who delivered them out of Egypt, and a golden calf was the only way of worship they knew, but that’s not acceptable to God, it had so offended God that it constituted idolatry that broke the covenant.

If you're worshipping a man you may as well be worshipping a golden calf.

For Jesus taught plainly regarding worship that the True Worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. There is no teaching about worshipping Jesus is spirit and truth nor was that a command that was given to the church. If you follow Jesus, which I am sure you do, then you should take heed to this and not misplace your worship inappropriately.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

 

[Runningman]

Many who have studied the O.T. See that there are two persons called LORD and God. Trinitarians suggest that one of them is the Son.
I believe that person was not the Son but an angel, the angel of the LORD.

It depends on what you mean exactly, but I possibly agree with you. I am just not sure if we have the same perspective on this. See, when you say "LORD" and capitalize all of the letters like that, I automatically think you are referring to YHWH because most English Bibles capitalize LORD where the Hebrew base word is YHWH.

On the other hand, when the OT says "God" or "god" it may sometimes use the same exact root word or variants of the root word. The capitalization is sometimes subjective based on a theology because there is a rule about which words require capitalization when translated from Hebrew to English. That means the capitalization you see in the OT is a translation and yes the presuppositions and theology held by the sponsor who hired the translator informs how words will get rendered even when there is more than one possible way to translate something.

 

[donadams]

Good job on the doctrine of the divinity of Christ!

But the divinity of Christ is intimately connected to the doctrine of Mary the mother of God.


Mother of God! Lk 1:43

By the authority of Jesus Christ bound on earth bound in heaven Matt 16:18-19

Lk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Mary is not the mother of the divinity, or the mother of the eternal father, or the mother of the Holy Spirit, nor the source of the divine nature.

Mary is the mother of God, cos Jesus Christ is God and Mary is His mother, not the mother of His body but the mother of His entire person.


"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God." Martin Luther

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God." John Calvin


Mother of God!

Jesus is a divine person who became man, and not a human person, that is why Mary is truly the “mother of God” Jesus is God, Mary is His mother, so she is the mother of God not to be confused with “source”, she is not the source of God or the mother of the divine nature, or the mother of the eternal Father, nor the mother of the spirit!

But mother of the Son who is God.

Only one person every has a family relationship with God, Mary; and she has three!

Daughter of the Father
Mother of the Son
Spouse of the Holy Spirit

And Jesus being our spiritual brother Mary is our spiritual mother!

God has no mother:
God is uncreated and eternal!

God the son does have a mother!
Mary is the mother of God!

It does not mean that Mary is the mother or source of the divine nature of God, or the mother of the father or the mother of the spirit.

it is a relationship between mother and child, Mary and Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is God;
Mary is His mother;
Mary is the mother of God to deny this is to deny the divinity of Christ and scripture. Lk 1:43

Cannot have Jesus as your spiritual brother unless Mary is your spiritual Mother!

Anyone who has no mother is an orphan.

Jesus said to His disciples; “I will not leave you orphaned” and “behold Thy mother”!
Jn 19:26 spiritual mother
Rev 12:19 spiritual mother

It is Mary who gave birth to the mystical Body of Christ!

We must obey the 4th commandment, “honor Thy father and mother”!

We must obey scripture and call Her “blessed”! Lk 1:48

Mother of God!

The Blessed Mary (ever virgin & sinless) is the Mother of Christ, because Jesus is the Christ.

They have no problem with “mother of Christ, or mother of Jesus, or mother of savior, but she is not the source of His being Christ, or Jesus, or savior?

The Blessed Mary, (ever virgin & sinless) is not only the Mother of Christ, Jesus, and savior, She is the Mother of God because Jesus the Lord is God! He is one divine person in two natures, human and divine. And to reiterate, when we praise the Blessed Mother, we are praising the Lord as well. She is the moon, reflecting the light and warmth of the sun, her Son, Our Lord Jesus.

Mary is the Mother of God:
God has no mother:

How can both be true?

God has no mother no source no beginning. God is uncreated and eternal!

So Mary IS NOT the source or mother of the divine nature.
Not the mother of the father or the spirit.

Jesus Christ is God, divine, uncreated and eternal!

Mary is His mother (relationship)
Mother of his entire person.
But not the source of His divinity.

So Mary is the mother of God!

Mary is the mother of God!

Any scripture, and reasonable arguments, and logical conclusion? No just emoting!

“God has no mother”!

A programed emotional reaction
Mary automatically means Mary is god, adored, & worshipped! Idolatry!


So much so that someone created a new “fake” word for it!
Mary and idolatry and make a new word. Maryolatry!

Very dishonest and lacking the virtures of Jesus Christ and the gifts of the Holy Spirit!

No problem with:

Mother of Jesus.
Mother of our savior.
Mother of Christ.

Nobody thinks she is the source of his being Jesus, our savior, or Christ?

Why think Mary is the source of God?


Let us reject spiritual pride and the spiritual blindness that says we can decide truth or Christian faith for ourselves, rather with humility let us be in subjection to Christ in the apostolic tradition!

Mary is the Mother of God!
We are not the arbiter of truth and have no authority to decide truth and doctrine or authentic Christian faith, the decrees of a holy Apostolic council is binding on all Christian’s!
Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18 Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19 Jn 20:21 acts 1:8


Jesus Christ is God! Jn 1:1
Mary is His real and true mother! Matt 1:18 Lk 1:31

Apostolic Council Of Ephesus – 431 A.D. with authority from Christ to bind and loose the faith of all Christians. Matt 16:19 & 18:18

If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh) let him be anathema.


Anyone who rejects the dogma of Mary the mother of God is rejecting the divinity of Christ!

 

[donadams]

Jesus is a certifiable human, the image of the invisible God, yet the Father is never called the image of God, but rather the only true God. The only true God is YHWH, who said He is not a man. Just very basic deductive reasoning confirms that Jesus isn't God and it's scriptural.

Then how does Jesus escape the “total depravity of man”?
How can he be the perfect sacrifice that obtains atonement?

 

[donadams]

In Luke 1, Elizabeth refers to Mary as the mother of the Lord. So when Elizabeth called Mary the mother of the Lord, is Elizabeth referring to Mary being the mother of a human Lord or a God Lord?

Luke 1
43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

13 times in Lk Ch 1 “Lord” is the Lord God almighty except verse 43?
Whatever!

 

[LeviR]

It depends on what you mean exactly, but I possibly agree with you. I am just not sure if we have the same perspective on this. See, when you say "LORD" and capitalize all of the letters like that, I automatically think you are referring to YHWH because most English Bibles capitalize LORD where the Hebrew base word is YHWH.

On the other hand, when the OT says "God" or "god" it may sometimes use the same exact root word or variants of the root word. The capitalization is sometimes subjective based on a theology because there is a rule about which words require capitalization when translated from Hebrew to English. That means the capitalization you see in the OT is a translation and yes the presuppositions and theology held by the sponsor who hired the translator informs how words will get rendered even when there is more than one possible way to translate something.

As I said, some men have seen and spoke with the LORD. And the N.T says no one has seen GOD at anytime.

An interesting example of the two called LORD is when Moses goes up the Mount. When he reached the top alone, there was a LORD who would not allow Moses to see His face because to see His face would have meant instant death for Moses.
But yet we also read Moses did indeed see another whom is called LORD. In fact it is said Moses spoke to that LORD face to face as a man speaks to a friend.
I understand this to mean that there is an Angel who carried the name of YHWH as he went about with the peole.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If one were so inclined, they could take every single last thing in the Bible figuratively. I am pretty sure the Bible was never meant to be weaponized to submit to our personal plans and desires.

Perhaps we should begin with what is common sense. Obviously a human didn't create the universe, right? Well, we know God created the universe. Therefore when God said "I am not a man" then that isn't figurative, that's literal. I guess 99% of all people whether they be Christian, secular, or otherwise would agree with this point because it isn't difficult to agree with this since it's reasonable.

We also know that God doesn't change or is immutable. Since God isn't a man who created the universe, God said He doesn't change, then becoming a man would be a change that is incompatible with the nature of God.

Numbers 23:19 says God is not a man or son of man that He "should lie" or "that He should change His mind." Meaning that God doesn't change his mind or lie like a human is capable of doing. God cannot lie or compromise His standards for anything but humans can.

God also cannot be tempted with sin like a man or a son of man can be, yet Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are yet without sin. That's Scriptural.

It seems that your mind is poisoned by the modalism heresy, that God can shift between three forms. Indeed God never changes, he’s always reigning in heaven, but that doesn’t mean he can’t appear to his royal subjects in human form while he’s still in heaven. Since you can appear to me as an avatar on this forum, and so do I to you, why can’t God communicate with human in human form? When Jesus was baptized, the Holy Spirit descended upon him, and God was yelling from heaven: “this is my beloved son, with whom I’m well pleased.” That was God’s human incarnate being baptized under God’s control, God wasn’t baptizing himself. Those are three distinct beings of one godly nature, which you don’t understand. You’re putting God in a box like the first century Jews by rejecting his omnipotence.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If you're worshipping a man you may as well be worshipping a golden calf.

I worship the same God as you do, that man is the medium. Without this medium you can’t worship him properly.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

For Jesus taught plainly regarding worship that the True Worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. There is no teaching about worshipping Jesus is spirit and truth nor was that a command that was given to the church. If you follow Jesus, which I am sure you do, then you should take heed to this and not misplace your worship inappropriately.

Jesus was born of the Spirit, and he IS truth. Denying Jesus is denying God, for he and the Father are ONE (Jn. 10:22-30). If you don’t worship through Jesus, the one and only intermediary between God and man, you’re the one who worships inappropriately. You’re probably thinking about Catholic crucifix or portrait of saints, that’s idolatry, I have none of those.

 

[Runningman]

It seems that your mind is poisoned by the modalism heresy, that God can shift between three forms. Indeed God never changes, he’s always reigning in heaven, but that doesn’t mean he can’t appear to his royal subjects in human form while he’s still in heaven. Since you can appear to me as an avatar on this forum, and so do I to you, why can’t God communicate with human in human form? When Jesus was baptized, the Holy Spirit descended upon him, and God was yelling from heaven: “this is my beloved son, with whom I’m well pleased.” That was God’s human incarnate being baptized under God’s control, God wasn’t baptizing himself. Those are three distinct beings of one godly nature, which you don’t understand. You’re putting God in a box like the first century Jews by rejecting his omnipotence.

I don't believe in Modalism, but I may ask you the same question you asked me. If you believe God can be a man because He wants to, then why can't He go between modes too? There is no limit to what God can do. Right? We can theorize and speculate all day about this.

However, I am a Unitarian Christian. What I believe in is one God the Father, the only true God. It's as simple as that to me and the Bible directly says this in numerous places in more ways than one.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus was born of the Spirit, and he IS truth. Denying Jesus is denying God, for he and the Father are ONE (Jn. 10:22-30). If you don’t worship through Jesus, the one and only intermediary between God and man, you’re the one who worships inappropriately. You’re probably thinking about Catholic crucifix or portrait of saints, that’s idolatry, I have none of those.

But can't we also be one with God? Jesus said so in John 17:21 and Paul said so in 1 Cor. 6:17. So being one with God doesn't make someone God and doesn't mean we are necessarily using Jesus as the intermediary for worshipping the Father. Besides, bowing down would have very little, if anything, to do with worshipping in spirit and truth.

So how do you worship through Jesus exactly? Just curious what you believe or what you do.

 

[donadams]

Matt 27:3-10 statuary?

Zechariah 11:13
And the Lord said to me: Cast it to the statuary, a handsome price, that I was prized at by them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and I cast them into the house of the Lord to the statuary.

Images are not forbidden, such as the cherubim on the ark of the covenant ex 25:18 and the bronze serpent num 21:9 and Jn 3:14 are not forbidden but even commanded, graven or worshiped as a god then these images are forbidden such as the golden calf!

Bowing down or posture does not equal worship or adoration!

Worship requires intent!
You must have the intent to worship God properly!

Worship requires intent, offering of sacrifice, a ordained priesthood, adoration, reparation, thanksgiving, and petition!

Bowing or posture does not equal worship! Kneeling next to your bed to pray is that worshiping your bed?

Genesis 23:12
And Abraham bowed down himself before the people of the land.

Genesis 42:6
And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.

Bowing a sign of obedience!

Genesis 43:28
And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.

1 Kings 1:53
So king Solomon sent, and they brought him down from the altar. And he came and bowed himself to king Solomon: and Solomon said unto him, Go to thine house.

1 Kings 2:19
Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her


If you kneel next to your bed to say your prayers at night are you worshiping your bed? No!


KJV call it pottery

Jn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (on the cross)

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(Portrayed in a crucifix)

 

[donadams]

Jn Is 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

What does it mean “in the bosom of the father”?

Jn1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

How is this possible if Jesus is just a man?

Mk 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

Why if Jesus is just a man?

Jn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

How did Jesus come before John the Baptist

 

[donadams]

An oldie but a goodie!

Word of God from is received from God!

Christ never received the word of God, He is the word of God, the way, the truth, & the life in Himself!

Jesus Christ is the word incarnate!

Jesus is God!

 

[I's2C]

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

GOD and the LAMB are back as one after the millennium and White Throne judgement where only the righteous overcome. Their trinity no longer needed and are one just as they were in 1st age. There is no different Shekinah glory for CHRIST and GOD there is only 1. CHRIST ‘the LIGHT thereof’ is GOD’S Shekinah glory that is brighter than the sun and only the spiritual body can withstand the brightness of GOD. GOD and the LAMBS spirit is the HOLY SPIRIT. CHRIST the shekinah glory of GOD played different roles throughout time As Tree of Life in the garden to counter act the tree of good and evil, JESUS, Melchizedek, Angel of the LORD; many different roles to counter act the negative of Satan who has many roles also. GOD is always fair and righteous with every negative there is the positive. Only GOD can come in the many roles; HE is who HE wants to be when HE wants to be. HIS sacred name I AM, that I AM! Only the LIGHT of the world could have melted the iced over earth in beginning of this age.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

We can theorize and speculate all day about this.

We can also debate all day which verses should be taken literally and which “figuratively” and symbolically. At least some of Jesus’s teachings in John such as “born again”, “eat my body” “living water” are most definitely spoken in a figurative sense, his listeners took it literally because they didn’t get it, so why can’t Num. 23:19 be put in the same category? As I mentioned before, God was rebuking Balaam in that particular context, he wasn’t making a theological statement, God is simply not someone whom Balaam thought he could manipulate.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

However, I am a Unitarian Christian. What I believe in is one God the Father, the only true God. It's as simple as that to me and the Bible directly says this in numerous places in more ways than one.

You’re no Christian if you deny Jesus’s deity.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But can't we also be one with God? Jesus said so in John 17:21 and Paul said so in 1 Cor. 6:17.

Because only can we truly be one with God when Jesus returns to us, this hasn’t happened yet. His church body is not completed yet. Being with him spiritually is not comparable with being with him physically.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16-17)