Mary, the mother of the Lord

[Carry_Your_Name]

So how do you worship through Jesus exactly? Just curious what you believe or what you do.

Show me how you worship God properly without Jesus - or any other intermediary. How about you enlighten me who or what is God, exactly? 'cause again, according to you, YHWH is that angel in the glowing bush, not God himself. You've denied God's prerogative to appear in anywhere he wants.

 

[Runningman]

We can also debate all day which verses should be taken literally and which “figuratively” and symbolically. At least some of Jesus’s teachings in John such as “born again”, “eat my body” “living water” are most definitely spoken in a figurative sense, his listeners took it literally because they didn’t get it, so why can’t Num. 23:19 be put in the same category? As I mentioned before, God was rebuking Balaam in that particular context, he wasn’t making a theological statement, God is simply not someone whom Balaam thought he could manipulate.

I agree with some of what you are saying but God not being a man who should lie is a theological statement. In Numbers 23:19 it also says "Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?" The answer is no of course not God always does what He said He would do. On the other hand, do people?

You may be able to take that figuratively if you like, I mean no one can stop you, but this is also repeated with frequency in the Bible.

There is also 1 Samuel 15:29, Hosea 11:9, Acts 17:24-25 that either directly say or demonstrate that God isn't a human. Are all of these figurative?

 

[Runningman]

You’re no Christian if you deny Jesus’s deity.

I have no doubt that is how you feel, but you're only saying that because you don't know what a real Christian is. This is actually a good time for you to discover that what you said doesn't exist in the Bible. If you feel otherwise, please quote the Scripture that explains or describes that those who deny the deity of Jesus are not Christian.

 

[Runningman]

Because only can we truly be one with God when Jesus returns to us, this hasn’t happened yet. His church body is not completed yet. Being with him spiritually is not comparable with being with him physically.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16-17)

This isn't being "truly" one with God?

1 Corinthians 6
17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.

 

[Runningman]

Show me how you worship God properly without Jesus - or any other intermediary. How about you enlighten me who or what is God, exactly? 'cause again, according to you, YHWH is that angel in the glowing bush, not God himself. You've denied God's prerogative to appear in anywhere he wants.

Well, I am a Christian. I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. He didn't teach anything about worshipping him, didn't teach anything about praying to him, didn't say he was God, etc. Who are you a follower of?

Worshipping the Father in spirit in truth is doing so out of sincere love and obedience to Him, abstaining from sin, practicing righteousness.

The first and greatest commandment is love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. Jesus also taught to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto us.

See that? Love God and seek His righteousness. This is true worship.

 

[donadams]

Jn 8:32 shall know the truth

We must believe and obey both Christ and the church He founded on the apostles (Matt 16:18-19) to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)

(Not scripture alone)
Sacred Scripture according to the churches cannon and interpretation? Yes!
Scripture alone? No!

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

“Not by scripture alone”!

That’s the nail in the coffin of “Sola scriptura” it is dead and buried, “false doctrine” the doctrine of demons like all the sola’s!


For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life! Jn 14:6

And this extends to His apostolic church, Christ and His church are one and inseparable! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32 acts 2:42

Jesus Christ is the Light of the world! Jn 8:12
Apostolic church the light of the world! Matt 5:14

Must Hear Jesus Christ! Matt 17:5
Acts 3:23
Must Hear the apostolic church! Matt 18:17 1 Jn 4:6

Authority of Jesus Christ! Matt 28:17
Authority of the apostles! Jn 20:21

Jesus Christ has Reconciliation!
2 cor 5:19
Apostles have ministry of Reconciliation! 2 cor 5:18

Jesus Christ have power to forgive mens sins! Lk 5:20 Jn
Apostles have power to forgive mens sins! Jn 20:23

Jesus Christ is the truth! Jn 14:6
The apostolic church is the pillar of truth! 1 Tim 3:16

For the apostolic authority in Holy church decided and decreed (bound on earth / bound in heaven) the cannon of Scripture, and is the only authentic interpreter of scripture!

Jesus Christ before ascending to heaven gave His apostles the fullness of truth, the apostolic church our mother and teacher is commanded by Him to teach and to sanctify with her sacraments (the promise of the spirit) all men unto eternal salvation! We are commanded to believe and obey! Matt 28:19

How can the Protestant concept: “sacred scripture is the only infallible source of truth” be true? There must be some infallible source that must tell us what is the cannon of scripture & has authority to interpret scripture!

It is impossible to reject the church or her teaching without rejecting Christ who founded the church and revealed her teaching!

You cannot reject the kingdom established by the king and say I obey and submit to the king!

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This isn't being "truly" one with God?

You have to decide what exactly counts as “truly”. From what I can tell, being with somebody “spiritually” is like chatting on Zoom or on the phone with them, that is very different from talking with them in person, which means being with them “physically”. If being with God “spiritually” would suffice, why would he need to return physically?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is also 1 Samuel 15:29, Hosea 11:9, Acts 17:24-25 that either directly say or demonstrate that God isn't a human. Are all of these figurative?

God had verbally given Moses the law throughout the whole time while he was on mount Sinai, were all of those just voices in his head? The simple fact of the matter is, no body in heaven is a human, human body is not built for heaven, but for earth. But since we’re all earth bound, why can’t God APPEAR to his people through a human intermediary? That’s exactly what’s prophesied in Deut. 18:15, is that figurative? If you still insist that this is the same as “God being a human,” you’re under the influence of modalism heresy, despite your denial.

The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear. (Deut. 18:15)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Well, I am a Christian. I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. He didn't teach anything about worshipping him, didn't teach anything about praying to him, didn't say he was God, etc. Who are you a follower of?

Worshipping the Father in spirit in truth is doing so out of sincere love and obedience to Him, abstaining from sin, practicing righteousness.

The first and greatest commandment is love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. Jesus also taught to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto us.

See that? Love God and seek His righteousness. This is true worship.

“You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would’ve known My Father also.” (Jn. 8:19)

“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.” (Jn. 8:42-45)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I have no doubt that is how you feel, but you're only saying that because you don't know what a real Christian is. This is actually a good time for you to discover that what you said doesn't exist in the Bible. If you feel otherwise, please quote the Scripture that explains or describes that those who deny the deity of Jesus are not Christian.

Sir, for the record, back to the beginning of our conversation, you were the one who denied the Scripture by discrediting the translation, not me. I don’t “feel” otherwise, I see what is written in biblical and historical context, instead of picking up a verse and build my own theology around it.

And to be honest, people during Jesus’s ministry believed in him not because of any of his teaching or scriptural evidence, but his miracles, for “no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” (Jn. 3:2) Jesus also defended his sonship with the evidence of his miracles: “do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” (Jn. 10:36-38) Therefore if you don’t believe Jesus’s deity, even though he and God are one (Jn. 10:30), believe in his power, for blaspheming against him is forgivable, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, his power, is not forgivable.

 

[Runningman]

You have to decide what exactly counts as “truly”. From what I can tell, being with somebody “spiritually” is like chatting on Zoom or on the phone with them, that is very different from talking with them in person, which means being with them “physically”. If being with God “spiritually” would suffice, why would he need to return physically?

Then you could ask the same thing about Jesus. Why does Jesus need to return physically according to your logic? God is Spirit, Jesus is one with God, and we can one with God in spirit because the church is a spiritual body, not so much a physical one. Look at it like this, there are church members in heaven and earth right now.

 

[Runningman]

God had verbally given Moses the law throughout the whole time while he was on mount Sinai, were all of those just voices in his head? The simple fact of the matter is, no body in heaven is a human, human body is not built for heaven, but for earth. But since we’re all earth bound, why can’t God APPEAR to his people through a human intermediary? That’s exactly what’s prophesied in Deut. 18:15, is that figurative? If you still insist that this is the same as “God being a human,” you’re under the influence of modalism heresy, despite your denial.

The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear. (Deut. 18:15)

The resurrection body changes and is immortal. It can be in heaven. Unless you think Jesus lost his human body post resurrection. Where does the Bible say anything about that?

Luke 20
36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

 

[Runningman]

“You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would’ve known My Father also.” (Jn. 8:19)

“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.” (Jn. 8:42-45)

Indeed, and a voice came from heaven say "This is my beloved Son. Listen to him!" So are you listening to him? He said worship the Father, pray to the Father, fast for the Father, and that the Father is his God and his brothers' God. Just listen to Jesus not everyone else or even your own opinions. So far most of what you are saying is something Jesus never repeated. You even said I am not a Christian for modeling my Christianity strictly on Jesus' teachings. Still laughing about that one a bit and praying for you.

 

[Runningman]

Sir, for the record, back to the beginning of our conversation, you were the one who denied the Scripture by discrediting the translation, not me. I don’t “feel” otherwise, I see what is written in biblical and historical context, instead of picking up a verse and build my own theology around it.

No I don't deny scripture. A translation discussion is just a whole 'nother part of a Bible discussion. There are many ways to translate something.

And to be honest, people during Jesus’s ministry believed in him not because of any of his teaching or scriptural evidence, but his miracles, for “no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” (Jn. 3:2) Jesus also defended his sonship with the evidence of his miracles: “do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” (Jn. 10:36-38) Therefore if you don’t believe Jesus’s deity, even though he and God are one (Jn. 10:30), believe in his power, for blaspheming against him is forgivable, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, his power, is not forgivable.

Yes Jesus was a man who God was with. There's a lot more to the story than that. The miracle power Jesus had came from God, it wasn't something he mustered up on his own. So maybe you should be careful where you are pointing that finger because if you aren't giving God His due glory for His miracles then how are you treating the Spirit?

John 14
10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.

Acts 2
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Then you could ask the same thing about Jesus. Why does Jesus need to return physically according to your logic? God is Spirit, Jesus is one with God, and we can one with God in spirit because the church is a spiritual body, not so much a physical one. Look at it like this, there are church members in heaven and earth right now.

Jesus's physical return is prophecied in the Scripture, Zech. 14:3-4, Acts. 1:9-11, which has nothing with "my logic". I've never denied our spiritual union with Christ, but again, spiritual union is not physical union, as much as union on Facebook is not union in person.

the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The resurrection body changes and is immortal. It can be in heaven. Unless you think Jesus lost his human body post resurrection. Where does the Bible say anything about that?

The resurrection is right here, on earth. Jesus was raised in a new body right here on earth, and he lingered forty days before he ascended into heaven. Likewise, his saints shall be raised in new bodies right here on earth, and they will reign with Christ in his millennial kingdom - again, right here on earth, not in heaven. Ezekiel had a vision of dry bones rose into armies, that's the resurrection of God's people, no "angel" was mentioned.

The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.” Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’” So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army. Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’” (Ez. 37:1-14)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No I don't deny scripture. A translation discussion is just a whole 'nother part of a Bible discussion. There are many ways to translate something.

Denying the visitor's lordship in Gen. 18 is denying God. Adonai is a common title of God, and it makes perfect sense to have the Lord addressed in this title since the name YHWH had NOT been revealed yet. I don't care what kind of translation you read, in KJV and NKJV, Abraham was talking with the LORD, in all caps, maybe not in 18:3, but in all the rest of the chapter, that refers to nobody else but God Almighty, the Creator of the universe.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes Jesus was a man who God was with. There's a lot more to the story than that. The miracle power Jesus had came from God, it wasn't something he mustered up on his own. So maybe you should be careful where you are pointing that finger because if you aren't giving God His due glory for His miracles then how are you treating the Spirit?

Yes, Jesus was like all the OT prophets before him, God was with all of them, but none of them was born of the Holy Spirit, only Jesus was. He has a dual nature of both God and man, as he was called both Son of God and Son of Man. If you give God his due glory, you ought to accept and honor his only begotten son; and if you have the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will always point you toward the Son.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus's physical return is prophecied in the Scripture, Zech. 14:3-4, Acts. 1:9-11, which has nothing with "my logic". I've never denied our spiritual union with Christ, but again, spiritual union is not physical union, as much as union on Facebook is not union in person.

the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Then it seems we have come full circle. So you do agree that Jesus will return physically despite the fact you also said a human body can't go to heaven. Jesus is a man in heaven right now according to the Bible. This may be difficult to comprehend, but it's okay to say so when we don't know or understand something. The writers in the Bible kept calling him a man decades after he was taken to heaven.

Paul wrote this many years after Jesus had already left, but shouldn't Paul have said something to the contrary if Jesus was someone other than a man?

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

[Runningman]

The resurrection is right here, on earth. Jesus was raised in a new body right here on earth, and he lingered forty days before he ascended into heaven. Likewise, his saints shall be raised in new bodies right here on earth, and they will reign with Christ in his millennial kingdom - again, right here on earth, not in heaven. Ezekiel had a vision of dry bones rose into armies, that's the resurrection of God's people, no "angel" was mentioned.

Oh I would really prefer not to go too deep into eschatology since something that is worthy of its own thread and people will argue about that fiercely for years (i've seen it) but haven't you read about what happens after the resurrection that takes place on earth? Paul was clear they are caught up into the sky unless you think that's figurative, too, but I wouldn't be so sure. I believe Jesus was the model for what happens. Jesus was himself "raptured" or caught up, or taken up, if you will.

The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.” Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’” So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army. Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’” (Ez. 37:1-14)

amen!