Mary

[William Putnam]

Re: Ambrose

Sorry Bill, you make no case at all. Again, all you do is go against Scripture and what Ambrose clearly says.

No, I will not go any further with this. We are getting nowhere, and you have not made a case for ANY of the early church fathers coming straight out and declaring that Mary was with sin.

I am finished with this thread........

Unity, have at it!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[evanman]

If Mary were not a sinner, as all people are (according to the Bible) she would not have had to offer sacrifice for her purification!

They who are not sinners do not need purification!

 

[Monkey Del]

Sadly, quite a number of false doctrines came into the churches as a result of the "Church Fathers"! NO false doctrines came in as a result of the New testament authors!

So the only church around fell into grevous error almost immediately after the close of the apostolic era? (Within the first 200 years)

What say ye of Christ's promise that for His church, "...the gates of hall shall not prevail against it"? (Matthew 16:18 )

For about 1500 years, this only church around (including the Orthodox church in the category for the moment) was is nerious and ever accumulating error until..........Calvin?...........Luther?......Benny Hinn?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

Bill, What proof have you THE RCC and Catholics were the only church till 1500's?

Just the word of other RCC and Catholics.

I DO NOT believe Catholics were the First Church. I Don't care what the Vatican says. I don't accept history as accurate.

The story teller has all power in how he tells the story.

The Catholics broke off from the True Vine, right after the Apostles died, as predicted (prophesied) by Paul, Peter, and John.

What proof have I? I bet you dying to know. The Word of God Condemns the Practices of the Catholic Church.

The praying to Mary is idolatry.Period. The word teaches us we have 1 thats one as in uno, un, une...uni, single...advocate, that is Christ Jesus.

1 lie, discounts the Whole thing. A little Leaven, leaventh the Whole Lump.

 

[Rebecka]

Oh, I beg to differ, recalling the last apparition of Mary, who finally identified herself to Bernadette, the uneducated school girl. The heavenly vision said:

Bill, I know for a fact that Mary doesn't appear to anyone. She is dead. She needed to be saved and recieved the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost. She probably died in Ephesus and was not ascended. End of story.

This is why I reject everything so called church fathers wrote.

I will never move from the Scripture and it ends at Revelation22.

If a million church fathers said such and such, still I will not accept anything tradition says.
Jesus rejected traditions as commandments of men. (that is all I need)

The RCC is a sad proof of men claiming divine inspiration when it is simply adding to the scriptures as John on Patmos said.

The reason I don't accept Mary as being sinless is because the Bible says she was a sinner like the rest of us, descended from Nathan, david's son..and highly favored doesn't mean as Unity said perfect and without sin. it means..highly favored. The woman being the mother of God's Son is highly favored.

You told Unity to have at it, but his posts are nothing more than non Biblical scraps and bits and pieces the catholics said, which means nothing to any serious stucent of the Bible.

 

[Rebecka]

Rebecka wrote:
As the scripture foretold, I call Mary blessed.


Do you tell this to your friends after Church service?

Bill, the Bible says I am to confess Jesus Christ before men, not Mary.

Jesus never in his Word said to confess Mary.

Jesus called Mary "woman" and he refused her as his mother when his brothers came with her to talk to him and he said.."Who is my mother? Whoever does the will of my Father is my mother........." Jesus made it clear!

Jesus dwelt in Capernaum, far from Nazareth. She didn't foillow him there. Mary was in her right mind, not like the catholics.

At twelve, he told her.."Woman, what have I to do with you?"

Twelve, mind you! He was only twelve and called her woman. He went down with them and lived in Nazareth because the scripture said."He shall be called a Nazarene.." not to be near his mother. He did it so the scriputures would be fulfilled.

Bill, the Bible is against all your beliefs about Mary.

Jesus was her "firstborn son" which tells us there were more sons, so since these gospels were written after Mary died, why didn't the writer say otherwise?

Because he knew Mary had other children by Joseph.

He went to a wedding at Cana and because he respected marriages as this is how God brings God fearing children into the world, he turned water into wine. NOT for Mary, but to help the groom and bride.

He does for all of us, not just Mary.

If there was scripture to support Mary worship, I would do it, but the God I know is a jealous God who shares his glory with none.

 

[Unity]

Oh, I beg to differ, recalling the last apparition of Mary, who finally identified herself to Bernadette, the uneducated school girl. The heavenly vision said:

Bill, I know for a fact that Mary doesn't appear to anyone. She is dead. She needed to be saved and recieved the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost. She probably died in Ephesus and was not ascended. End of story.

This is why I reject everything so called church fathers wrote.

I will never move from the Scripture and it ends at Revelation22.

If a million church fathers said such and such, still I will not accept anything tradition says.
Jesus rejected traditions as commandments of men. (that is all I need)

The RCC is a sad proof of men claiming divine inspiration when it is simply adding to the scriptures as John on Patmos said.

The reason I don't accept Mary as being sinless is because the Bible says she was a sinner like the rest of us, descended from Nathan, david's son..and highly favored doesn't mean as Unity said perfect and without sin. it means..highly favored. The woman being the mother of God's Son is highly favored.

You told Unity to have at it, but his posts are nothing more than non Biblical scraps and bits and pieces the catholics said, which means nothing to any serious stucent of the Bible.

Once again I see errors in your post. Why not listen to what Catholics believe instead of telling them what they believe?

If you are a serious student of the Bible, then perhaps you mayhave missed some scripture, such as 1 Cor 8:1, Provers 16:5, 1Peter 5:5, 1Cor 1:27-29

A majority of these are regarding conduct and how to present oneself.

 

[William Putnam]

Oh, I beg to differ, recalling the last apparition of Mary, who finally identified herself to Bernadette, the uneducated school girl. The heavenly vision said:

Bill, I know for a fact that Mary doesn't appear to anyone. She is dead. She needed to be saved and recieved the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost. She probably died in Ephesus and was not ascended. End of story.

How do you know "for a fact," Rebecka?

And the last time I read the bible, the body certainly dies but the soul is alive and in the spiritual realm.

Do you have any reason to think Mary was not saved, Rebecka?

This is why I reject everything so called church fathers wrote.

Then why do you accept what was written in the New Testament? How do you know that the New Testament is a figment of the Church's imagination and they simply "made it up" out of whole cloth?

I will never move from the Scripture and it ends at Revelation22.

What "scripture"? Who told you that the books from Matthew to Revelation in the New Testament is scripture in the first place, Rebecka?

If a million church fathers said such and such, still I will not accept anything tradition says.

Well, you will not have to worry about that since there are not that many!

Jesus rejected traditions as commandments of men. (that is all I need)

Where did Jesus reject ALL traditions, Rebecka? I know he explained how the traditions of the Pharasees got in the way of their worship of God.

The RCC is a sad proof of men claiming divine inspiration when it is simply adding to the scriptures as John on Patmos said.

Who is "John"? How do you know his writings are inspired? Who told you?

The reason I don't accept Mary as being sinless is because the Bible says she was a sinner like the rest of us, descended from Nathan, david's son..and highly favored doesn't mean as Unity said perfect and without sin. it means..highly favored. The woman being the mother of God's Son is highly favored.

Where in the bible does it explicitly say Mary is a sinner?

You told Unity to have at it, but his posts are nothing more than non Biblical scraps and bits and pieces the catholics said, which means nothing to any serious stucent of the Bible.

Oh, I would give Unity a bit more credit then that. But of course, I don't suppose Unity expects to get any from anyone here in this forum. But I will give him credit for doing the best he can in the faith he believes in.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[Rebecka]

Bill, your compatriot dis-unity told me thousands have left because I offended them.

You and I, Bill have debated, and I have hated 80% of what you said, but never in Jesus precious name have I ever hated YOU. In fact, Bill, (name of my exhusband) God has used you to show me many things. Not to change me to a catholic, but to make me love even more all for whom he died.

I just can't resist that pic of you, it is the pic of a sweet guy.

I won't be posting here anymore because it is not for debate, but to hand each other creampuffs. Dis-untiy said I caused millions to leave because I am so terrible a person. Is't it great that Jesus died for terrible sinners?

Mary is saved, of course, Bill, she was blessed and favored, but Jesus is my obssession, Jesus alone. I am crazy in love with him and really have no time or room for anyone else.

I do not wish dis-untiy godspeed, and that is serious,..... but Bill, I pray God will pour out his Spirit on you and all you love. May he give you the desires of your heart and may he grant your r equests, in Jesus Name.

It was nice knowing you, my catholic friend.

PS, a Roman catholic priest, who is with the Lord now asked me to help him where he was minstering for the Lord. Many people were entering the building where he was minsitering and he went straight to me and hugged me and said.."You're an old timer (not meaning I'm old, I was in my twenties) but he meant that I knew God a long time. And he asked me to help him in his work there for Jesus.

I will always remember my catholic friend the priest and what a preacher he was. He said that after he was filled with the Holy Spirit, it took ten years off his life.

God bless you, Bill.

PS to dis-untiy, yes, I've read those scriptures, but I render unto Caesarthe things that are Caesar's and to God what is God's.

 

[Gary]

Immaculate Conception of Mary

Immaculate Conception of Mary - a Roman Catholic dogma

Gary: Please show me the chapter/verses which tell us that Mary was BORN without sin (Immaculate Conception of Mary)

Unity: The basis for the belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary can be found in the Biblical revelation of holiness and the opposite of that state, sinfulness.
God is revealed as perfect interior holiness.
Is 6:3
"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts!" they (the Seraphim) cried one to the other.
No sin or anything tainted with sin can stand in the face of the holiness of God. "Enmity" is that mutual hatred between Mary and sin, between Christ and sin.

Gary: Where is there a reference to Mary in this verse? Where does this talk about "Mary born without sin"? What I see in this verse is the seraphs speaking to each other. The "Holy, holy, holy" (called the trihagion) is to emphasize God's seperateness from and independence of His fallen creatures - and that would include include Mary! The verse goes on to say: ".. the WHOLE earth is full of His glory!" (emphasis mine). The earth is the worldwide display of His immeasurable glory, perfections and attitudes as seen in creation (see Rom 1:20).

Unity: Gen 3:15
I will put enmity between you (the serpent, Satan) and the woman (Mary), and between your offspring (minions of Satan) and hers (Jesus); He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.

Gary: This is a total out-of-context misuse of Gen 3:15. It also eludes to the INCORRECT translation of Gen 3:15 (an error made by the Roman Catholic church for centuries). It is part of what started this incorrect dogma.

In many Roman Catholic versions of the Bible, such as the Douay Rheims, the standard Roman Catholic English Bible until the middle of the twentieth century, God's curse upon Satan reads:

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. - - Genesis 3:15 (Douay Rheims)

Based on this verse, many statues and paintings of Mary show her crushing a serpent under her foot--a graphic representation of her role as co-redeemer. This imagery is also found in Catholic documents:

Hence, just as Christ, the Mediator between God and man, assumed human nature, blotted the handwriting of the decree that stood against us, and fastened it triumphantly to the cross, so the most holy Virgin, united with him by a most intimate and indissoluble bond, was, with him and through him, eternally at enmity with the evil serpent, and most completely triumphed over him, and thus crushed his head with her immaculate foot. - - Ineffabilis Deus

This imagery, however, is based upon a faulty translation of Genesis 3:15 from the Latin texts of the Vulgate Bible, the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church since the fourth century. Until recently, the Latin Vulgate served as the base text for all Roman Catholic translations, including the English Douay Rheims Bible.

In the Hebrew text, the original language of the Old Testament, the subject of Genesis 3:15 is masculine, not feminine. Therefore, rather than reading "she shall crush thy head" (Genesis 3:15, Douay Rheims), the verse should be translated "He shall bruise you on the head" (Genesis 3:15, NASB). The verse is prophetically speaking of Christ's victory over Satan, not Mary's.

Though recent Roman Catholic translations have corrected the error, Roman Catholic theology remains the same.

So, firstly, let us do a correct exegesis of the corrected passage: Gen 3:13-15

13And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?â€Â
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.â€Â
14So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you (the serpent) and the woman (Eve),
And between your seed (the serpent's seed) and her Seed (Christ, a decendent of Eve);
He (Jesus) shall bruise your head (Satan),
And you (satan) shall bruise His (Jesus) heel.â€Â

After cursing the physical serpent, God turned to the spiritual serpent, the lying seducer, Satan, and cursed him. This “first gospel†is prophetic of the struggle and its outcome between “your seed†(Satan and unbelievers, who are called the Devil’s children in John 8:44) and her seed (Christ, a descendant of Eve, and those in Him), which began in the garden. In the midst of the curse passage, a message of hope shone forthâ€â€the woman’s offspring called “He†is Christ, who will one day defeat the Serpent. Satan could only “bruise†Christ’s heel (cause Him to suffer), while Christ will bruise Satan’s head (destroy him with a fatal blow).

I see NOTHING about an "Immaculate Conception of Mary" in this passage.

The fact that even Roman Catholic authorities like the Roman Catholic theologian Ott acknowledge that the “literal sense†of this text does not refer to Mary but to Eve and her offspring should be argument enough that Mary cannot be legitimately inferred from this text. Even if by extension or culmination Mary is found in this text in some indirect way, it is a gigantic leap from this to her immaculate conception, which is nowhere stated or implied in this passage. The literal sense is that Eve (not Mary) and her posterity will win in their moral warfare against Satan and his offspring, culminating in the crushing victory of the Messiah over Satan and his hosts. The “woman†is obviously Eve, the “offspring†are clearly the literal offspring of Eve (cf. 4:1, 25), and the victory is the victory of Christ over Satan (cf. Rom. 16:20).

Protestants need not object to the Catholic argument that, just as the Messiah is found by extension and culmination in the term “offspring,†even so Mary the mother of the Messiah is implied too. Be this as it may, the point still stands that there is no necessary or logical connection between Mary being the mother of the Messiah and her being conceived without sin.

Unity: The salutation of the Angel Gabriel indicates that Mary was exceptionally "highly favored with grace" (Gk.: charitoo, used twice in the New Testament, in Lk 1:28 for Mary - before Christ's redemption; and Eph 1:6 for Christ's grace to us - after Christ's redemption).
Lk 1:28
And coming to her (Mary), he (the angel Gabriel) said, "Hail, favored one (kecharitomene)"
Eph 1:4-6
(God) chose us in him (Jesus), before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him. In love he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will, for the praise of the glory of his grace (echaritosen) that he granted us in the beloved.

Gary: Yes, Mary is about to become the bearer of God's grace. Jesus Christ is the whole measure of God's grace. Mary was about to bear and conceive Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. All of that is true. However, it does not say that Mary was "born without sin" (Immaculate Conception of Mary). The immaculate conception is JESUS!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All have sinned EXCEPT Jesus. ALL are born sinners, except Jesus. The ONLY UNIQUE Immaculate Conception was Jesus. “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.†(Psalm 51:5). Scripture diagnoses sin as a universal deformity of human nature, found at every point in every person (1 Kings 8:46; Romans 3:9-23; Romans 7:18; 1 John 1:8-10). “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9). “…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...†(Romans 3:23) EXCEPT our Lord Jesus Christ. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth. (1 Peter 2:22). The New Testament insists that Jesus was entirely free from sin (John 8:46; 2 Cor. 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 7:26; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5). There is nothing in Scripture to support the Roman Catholic dogma of Mary born WITHOUTsin. – Gary.

“It will be your duty, however, to present your proofs out of the Scriptures, as plainly as we do.†– Tertullian.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.

 

[Steve]

Was Mary a Perpetual Virgin?


This is a common phrase among Catholics, is it true?

My bible tells me different, how about you?

My Bible tells me nothing of the sort. There is no proof that Mary had other children. At best, "the brothers and sisters of Jesus" were Joseph's by a former marriage, or just cousins, at best.

 

[Monkey Del]

Was Mary a Perpetual Virgin?


This is a common phrase among Catholics, is it true?

My bible tells me different, how about you?

My Bible tells me nothing of the sort. There is no proof that Mary had other children. At best, "the brothers and sisters of Jesus" were Joseph's by a former marriage, or just cousins, at best.

When faced with real scriptures (the ones I posted earlier)...why do Catholics commpletely ignore them?

 

[Steve]

I am not a Roman Catholic. :P

 

[Monkey Del]

I am not a Roman Catholic. :P

I did not say you are RCC.

 

[mcrees]

My Bible tells me nothing of the sort. There is no proof that Mary had other children. At best, "the brothers and sisters of Jesus" were Joseph's by a former marriage, or just cousins, at best.

Where does the Bible say anything that would lead one to think that Joseph had a former marriage?

 

[Vic C.]

Where does the Bible say anything that would lead one to think that Joseph had a former marriage?

The same place it says Mary remained a virgin! :P :

 

[Gary]

Where does the Bible say anything that would lead one to think that Joseph had a former marriage?

The same place it says Mary remained a virgin! :P :

... and just after the verse which shows Mary was born without sin (Immaculate Conception of Mary) :o and right before the verses which tell us about Mary's Assumption into Heaven. :angel:

.

 

[Monkey Del]

Where does the Bible say anything that would lead one to think that Joseph had a former marriage?

The same place it says Mary remained a virgin! :P :

... and just after the verse which shows Mary was born with out sin (Immaculate Conception of Mary) :o and right before the verses which tell us about Mary's Assumption into Heaven. :angel:

.

Wasn't in the 3rd chapter of Jude?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

One false doctrine leads to many false dogma..


cubedbee: Why does it matter if Mary had sex or not?

Gary: Simple. One false doctrine often leads to many false non-Biblical dogma.

False doctrine (1) Mary, a perpetual virgin leads to ..
False doctrine (2) the Immaculate Mary (Mary born without sin) which leads to
False doctrine (3) Assumption of Mary (Mary's body does not rot; assumpted into heaven) which leads to
False doctrine (4) Mary the mediatrix i.e. co-mediator with Jesus!

This is the heart of the matter.
The Roman Catholic Church puts all eyes on Mary and takes them off of Jesus.
Why?

 

[reba]

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. Do not start new topics or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature. Moderator

 

[Claudya]

The resident thread necromancer strikes again. :
:D

Wow I didn't know this board already existed in 2003. This place is older than the world.