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Bible Study Mary's Choice

ezra

 
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But what if she was too scared to? What if she didn't want to give birth to Jesus? I really don't think that God would put all that pressure on one person. Then again, that's just my opinion. A woman should never be forced into pregnancy whether or not it's a regular child or the Son of God.
she had to be scared maybe not the entire time but what was the punishment for a woman having a baby not being married
 

ezra

 
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I think that's basically right. God's foreknowledge as to the kind of life that Mary would lead and that she would be the vessel to bear his son is not really a free will issue - or at least it's no bigger issue in Mary's case that in any other case where God has foreknowledge of our decisions. William Lane Craig has written extensively on the free will problem. It's a can of worms, but I don't think God's foreknowledge makes Mary's decisions throughout her life any less free. She voluntarily led a life so exemplary that she "found favor" with God, and this should not be minimized. I have no problem with anyone who chooses to "venerate" Mary, so long as the term is not a code word for "worship." As I've said previously, I don't think there was any issue of her "saying yes" as though God were offering her a choice. If you are a believer and God says "You will do this" or "This will happen," I don't believe that the concept of "choice" enters into it. She was simply chosen.
agreed could she have said no? i suppose but God knew she wouldn't. as one looks at the old testament you can see the prelude to the Christ seed coming . not a chess player .but two words i do understand is check..you better do something or else your had.. check mate game over ..check was going on got putting the plan together . then the Birth of Christ Check mate unto you a savior is Born
 

HeIsRisen2018

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Here watch the video. (Just because it says Catholic Answers on it doesn't mean that it's a Catholic discussion) I think it hits the nail right on the head and is precisely the bottom line here.


 
T

Tatilina

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Did Mary choose to become the Mother of the Son of God
or was she predestined to become Jesus' mother?

The answer could be based on whatever you deem to be important.
I'd say that the main answer is in Luke 1:26-38
She was predestined and had no choice or say in the matter. People think we always have a choice and I know that is not true. The bible makes it clear that everyone that is in the bible or mentioned in the bible were the only ones who were predestined by God to fulfill his word, prophecy and the truth.

Jesus actually acknowledges that Mary wasn’t anyone special just because she gave birth to Jesus and he makes to clear in the book of

Matthew 12:46-50

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”


Now when it comes to predestination, the reformer camp as well as the free willy (lol) camp both understand predestination differently. I just go what scripture says. There is no doubt in my mind that God created Mary for that very purpose. She isn’t mentioned much in scripture to be honest.
 
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Tatilina

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predestination is a difficult subject to understand. in this case God had it all planned a head of time ..
Yes it is, I was a Calvinist for about 10 years, and before that, I was Arminian and now I’m neither. I think I wasted at least 8 years debating in every facebook group you can think of between OSAS, Predestination and free will. Of course God had it all planned, I’ve known that simce I was a child. I really hate it when people underestimate me and my knowledge of God’s word and my personal intimate walk with God.
 

ezra

 
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Yes it is, I was a Calvinist for about 10 years, and before that, I was Arminian and now I’m neither. I think I wasted at least 8 years debating in every facebook group you can think of between OSAS, Predestination and free will. Of course God had it all planned, I’ve known that simce I was a child. I really hate it when people underestimate me and my knowledge of God’s word and my personal intimate walk with God.
i have debated in calvinist forums.. most for the fun of it..i did do a email correspondence with a man on being reformed. it went rather well till he seen he could not convert me over .. i like your theory neither i just want to be known as forgiven / last summer i had a medical procedure done at pre register asked me religious preference i said saved
 
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I was just simply stating that I believe that that doesn't mean that she didn't have a free choice. God specifically forcing Mary to be Jesus' mother would be just like forcing the rest of the world to follow Him which He does not.
Hi HR, All of the Israelite women knew of the prophecy of the Christ being born of a virgin. (Isa. 7:10-16) They all thought it an honor to be chosen and would have felt blessed of all women as Mary did (Luke 1:39-56).
 

iLOVE

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God says things that make you think. He takes you through things that you don't talk about; you pondered them in your heart.

Jesus mother Mary was told by the Angel Gabriel she was "highly favored," but yet had to birth her baby (Jesus) in a barn and travel on a donkey to safety.
 
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HeIsRisen2018

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Hi HR, All of the Israelite women knew of the prophecy of the Christ being born of a virgin. (Isa. 7:10-16) They all thought it an honor to be chosen and would have felt blessed of all women as Mary did (Luke 1:39-56).



I know, that's what I was saying.
 

Jim Parker

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Did Mary choose to become the Mother of the Son of God
or was she predestined to become Jesus' mother?

The answer could be based on whatever you deem to be important.
I'd say that the main answer is in Luke 1:26-38
I believe she could have declined the honor based on her comment "Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.”

There is a very important parallel between this passage and the creation story of Genesis 1.
As Mary said "Let it be" so God also said "Let here be".

When God created the heavens and the earth, it was formless and void. (Barren, not producing life.)
Mary was a virgin and, in a manner of speaking also void or barren. (not producing life)

Before the acts of creation, "the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."
In answer to Mary's question as to how she would conceive without a man, the angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you;"
It is the same image.

And, finally, to begin the six days of creation, God said "Let there be light."
And in reference to the birth of Jesus, it is said, "The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned.” (Mat 4:16)


no extra charge
 
R

Runner

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I agree.
He chose her before time.

I believe that all concepts of "predestination," "chosen her before time," etc., demean who Mary was. Mary was a woman who had led such an exemplary like that she "found favor" with God to such an extent that she above all women was deemed worthy to bear his son. Apart from whether Mary could have said no, she certainly could have sinned to a degree that would have disqualified her - but, to her honor, she didn't. God may have had foreknowledge that she would not sin, but as we discussed this does not negate Mary's free will. Perhaps in over-reaction to their disdain for Catholicism and Orthodoxy, Protestants often seem to have an agenda to minimize Mary as "just the chosen vessel and nothing special in her own right."

As to whether Mary could have said no, I just see nothing in Luke's account to suggest that the angel was asking or negotiating with Mary, or that Mary thought she was being asked or negotiated with. So I see no reason we would read this into the account. What does it add - do we think it makes God into a more sensitive 21st Century guy if she was politely asked? She was simply told that she had been chosen by God and what was going to happen.

"What if she had said no?" is a purely academic question because there is nothing in the account to suggest she was asked. Her response does not even hint at anything like "OK, I've thought about it and I agree." It is simply a statement of acceptance of what she has been told. "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." "Handmaid" essentially means "female servant." When the master told a handmaid something was going to happen, he wasn't asking if she agreed, and "no" was not an option.
 

HeIsRisen2018

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Again, does it really matter if Mary would have gotten the chance to say no? The point in the matter is that she said yes and that's the whole entire reason that we celebrate Christmas in the first place.
 

wondering

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She was predestined and had no choice or say in the matter. People think we always have a choice and I know that is not true. The bible makes it clear that everyone that is in the bible or mentioned in the bible were the only ones who were predestined by God to fulfill his word, prophecy and the truth.

Jesus actually acknowledges that Mary wasn’t anyone special just because she gave birth to Jesus and he makes to clear in the book of

Matthew 12:46-50

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”


Now when it comes to predestination, the reformer camp as well as the free willy (lol) camp both understand predestination differently. I just go what scripture says. There is no doubt in my mind that God created Mary for that very purpose. She isn’t mentioned much in scripture to be honest.
I agree with you. Some in the bible are there for very special purposes.
I DO believe in free will, as God created us as HE is and He certainly has free will.
I noticed your giggle there so can I assume you DON'T believe in free will?

Free will as in: I have the choice to pick either good or evil at any given moment.
 

wondering

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Again, does it really matter if Mary would have gotten the chance to say no? The point in the matter is that she said yes and that's the whole entire reason that we celebrate Christmas in the first place.
It IS kind of important that God give us the choice to say no.
At least, I think it is. Unless there's a really important reason
and that reason would have to be for God's will to be fulfilled.
 

wondering

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I believe she could have declined the honor based on her comment "Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.”

There is a very important parallel between this passage and the creation story of Genesis 1.
As Mary said "Let it be" so God also said "Let here be".

When God created the heavens and the earth, it was formless and void. (Barren, not producing life.)
Mary was a virgin and, in a manner of speaking also void or barren. (not producing life)

Before the acts of creation, "the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."
In answer to Mary's question as to how she would conceive without a man, the angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you;"
It is the same image.

And, finally, to begin the six days of creation, God said "Let there be light."
And in reference to the birth of Jesus, it is said, "The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned.” (Mat 4:16)


no extra charge
Jim,
If a big, imposing angel Gabriel -- very authoratative too -- visited you and told you you had to give up your bikes (IOW, he didn't ASK you to) I doubt very much you would say NO!

I don't think Mary had a choice. God picked her before time, He prepared her for the task, He KNEW SHE WOULD SAY YES (can't explain that part) and voila, she says yes. And she WANTED to say yes.
 
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wondering

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I believe that all concepts of "predestination," "chosen her before time," etc., demean who Mary was. Mary was a woman who had led such an exemplary like that she "found favor" with God to such an extent that she above all women was deemed worthy to bear his son. Apart from whether Mary could have said no, she certainly could have sinned to a degree that would have disqualified her - but, to her honor, she didn't. God may have had foreknowledge that she would not sin, but as we discussed this does not negate Mary's free will. Perhaps in over-reaction to their disdain for Catholicism and Orthodoxy, Protestants often seem to have an agenda to minimize Mary as "just the chosen vessel and nothing special in her own right."

As to whether Mary could have said no, I just see nothing in Luke's account to suggest that the angel was asking or negotiating with Mary, or that Mary thought she was being asked or negotiated with. So I see no reason we would read this into the account. What does it add - do we think it makes God into a more sensitive 21st Century guy if she was politely asked? She was simply told that she had been chosen by God and what was going to happen.

"What if she had said no?" is a purely academic question because there is nothing in the account to suggest she was asked. Her response does not even hint at anything like "OK, I've thought about it and I agree." It is simply a statement of acceptance of what she has been told. "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." "Handmaid" essentially means "female servant." When the master told a handmaid something was going to happen, he wasn't asking if she agreed, and "no" was not an option.
I agree with you 100%. I think I just wrote a couple of posts showing we agree.
There IS a mystery between Mary saying yes, and God preparing her, and her free will to be this wonderful person that you say she was and that she, indeed, was.
I, for one, do not minimize her to being a vessel. I believe we protestants do not give Mary enough credit or glory or honor, or be it what it may.

I think I've said this before...
I liken God's will to a football game.
Within the game, players will do what they can to the best of their ability.
But, somehow, the game will turn out the way God wills it.
I see all of creation and our end being like this football game.
We are free to do our will, but God will cause all to end with His will being done.
 
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