Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

MATT 2:34 "This generation will not pass away" ... What did Jesus mean?

Well, what is your answer? I would love to know.
I do have a life beyond posting here, you know. :nono2

As for the answer to Daniel 11:40-45, it has been fulfilled, just as every other verse in Daniel has been fulfilled. But instead of wasting my time typing a bunch of proofs people here won't read or believe anyway, just go to the following link and educate yourselves. It sums up what I believe about the passage.

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/tsf-bulletin/vol47/daniel11_gurney.pdf

Here's an excerpt:

Verses 44 and 45 must refer to the ever-present threat to the Roman empire from the Parthians in the north-east. In 54 BC Crassus undertook a campaign against the Parthians (he, Pompey and Julius Caesar were the members of the first triumvirate); but before the campaign he took over the province of Syria and pillaged it very thoroughly, also plundering the treasures of the temple in Jerusalem. Doubtless he pitched his tents between the Mediterranean and Mount Zion at some stage. His campaign was unsuccessful, however, and he was killed by the Parthians―thus, did he ‘come to his end’. We can see, therefore, that verses 40 to 45 are a perfect description of the arrival of the Romans and the destruction of the Greek empire. This interpretation is so accurate and so thoroughly in context, that it must surely be the correct one. After Pompey and Julius Caesar had died, Augustus finally became emperor. It was during his reign that Jesus Christ was born.

It can be seen, then, that history is being described almost up to the time of Christ, and that events taking place after the reign of Antiochus are depicted in just as accurate detail as events before and during his reign, even the lapse of time between Rome’s conquest of Macedon and the rest of the Greek empire.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
It can be seen, then, that history is being described almost up to the time of Christ...

You are aware that Paul wrote to the Thessalonians after Julius Caesar (and Jesus) had died, aren’t you. The “man of sin” was still expected by Paul, and the “falling away” had not yet occurred.

Doubtless he pitched his tents...
Is this what you have placed your beliefs on… “Doubtless”? Ok!

You previously said:

“...the detractors here still have no answer… for all these verses...”
Is this really your superior answer? Please keep humble enough to accept that you might just be wrong. You are no doubt very sincere, and you do not research just out of boredom. Jesus alone is the way, the truth and the life. Not you, and not me. All of us are capable of being wrong in our theology…there is no great shame in this. The shame comes in not being willing to amend our errors. God knows I have had to amend mine!

God Bless
Tri
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Are there any thoughts on the closing verses of Daniel chapter 11:40-45?

Daniel 11:40 “And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also on the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.†(AKJV)

Is this time of the end in 70 AD? Who is it talking about? I would appreciate your thoughts from a Preterist and Futurist perspective. Do your beliefs from either camp have an explanation for these verses? I understand if you say:


Dan 11:1-4 gives us a series of events about just 3 kings after Darius [Cyrus as per LXXE], after which a mighty king from Greece who will have dominion which will be split into 4 kingdoms. The might king is Alexander who overthrew Persian King and his own kingdom was split into the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, the Seleucid Empire in the east, the Kingdom of Pergamon in Asia Minor, and Macedon.

Dan 11:5-6 gives a series of events between the kings of the north and the kings of the south. The kings of the south is undoubtedly Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt and the king of the north should be Seleucid Empire with respect to Judea.

Dan 11:7-45 describes about a king, descendant of the daughter of the king of the south and his sons in v10. It slowly loses the timeline but keeps the context to king of the south and north and goes from a time period of 150 BC directly to end times in chapter 12. Strictly speaking without referring to chapter 12, it is easy to conclude the "time of the end" could refer the time of their own end or collapse of their empires. But the chapter 12 starts in this way.."At that time ..." referring to a time period that can only be end times if chapter 12 is taken into consideration.

We can also see the abomination of desolation in chapter 12 is not the same event in chapter 8 as the time lines mentions differ.

Hence, my view is, chapter 11 starts from ~539 BC but loses the timeline somewhere in the middle to directly jump to end times. It is also possible the reason for the kings in chapter 11 is to give a clue to the saints that the future Antichrist would come from a specific genealogy as chapter 12:1-2 clearly depicts the great tribulation.
 
Hence, my view is, chapter 11 starts from ~539 BC but loses the timeline somewhere in the middle to directly jump to end times.

Yes, I agree with this view. Daniel 11 appears (to me) to be a prophecy similar to Mathew 24 in which two distinct time-frames are discussed with the one set of descriptions (the time of 70 AD as well as the “end of the world”). The details of the prophecy overlap each over, and they describe two separate events – both of which are called “the end-times”. You see an instance in Daniel 11 where the “appointed time” (or “those times”) are used on more than one occasion and speaking of different events:

And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south.” Daniel 11:14

and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for atime. Daniel 11:24

At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.Daniel 11:29

And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him…” Daniel 11:40

I think it is possible that the “end-time”section begins with verse 21. This is akin to the last beast of Revelation, or the end-time beast of Daniel:

21And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honor of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. 22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflowed from before him, and shall be broken; yes, also the prince of the covenant. 23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up,and shall become strong with a small people. 24 He shall enter peaceably even on the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

This section is strangely similar to the period of the French Revolution which saw the rise of the Rothschild Dynasty (a vile person) who rules behind the scenes without a crown (“they have not put upon him the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in prosperously, and obtain the kingdom by deceitful ways.” [LXXE]) This period also witnessed the pope being Imprisoned (“the head of the covenant“ [verse22]). So 11:21-45 could well be the description of the 7th king of Revelation in his build up to merging into the 8th king, and his final destruction. The last king of the North can only be the antichrist, and this king of the north (Northern Alliance Treaty Organisation?) must also be the 8th king of Revelation.

Just my thoughts…



 
Last edited by a moderator:
(the time of 70 AD as well as the “end of the world”).
They are one and the same. The "end of the world" was the end of the world as the Jews knew it: the end of their city (Jerusalem) nation (Israel) religion (Old Covenant) and way of life. Everything changed forever in 70 AD with the destruction of their city and Temple. God took His kingdom away from them: a kingdom whereby the priesthood of the Old Covenant ruled the people, and gave it to Christ who has become the head of His new kingdom - the church.

You need read no further than the book of Hebrews to understand how the world completely changed for them (and us) because of Christ's sacrifice.

But given that most people don't understand how Christ's sacrifice changed the world, and thereby belittle it by looking for Him to return to make things "righter" than He already has, I have no doubt you'll misunderstand this, too.

:nono2
 
Good grief... I have company and am away for a couple days and you guys get snarky.... Is some one wanting the thread closed. reba :grumpy
 
Everything changed forever in 70 AD with the destruction of their city and Temple. God took His kingdom away from them: a kingdom whereby the priesthood of the Old Covenant ruled the people, and gave it to Christ who has become the head of His new kingdom - the church. :nono2

I understand your rationale; and Jesus and the Church did change the world. That does not mean that your worldview and understanding of these scriptures is correct. You are picking up on the universal benefits of Christianity and confusing that with “the end of the world”. Then you are trying to bend the scripture to fit this perception. It is a very uncomfortable fit – like a square peg into a round hole. It is also contrary to the teachings of the earliest church fathers.

You have convinced yourself that the scriptures say these things. Certain people are predisposed to certain logic,and this logic suits you. That’s ok Stormcrow. In the end it is what we do with our faith that counts. If we have all the faith so as to move mountains, yet do not have love among ourselves, it benefits us nothing. This is true for all of us.(reba: please keep that rolling pin away from me).

Tri
 
They are one and the same. The "end of the world" was the end of the world as the Jews knew it: the end of their city (Jerusalem) nation (Israel) religion (Old Covenant) and way of life. Everything changed forever in 70 AD with the destruction of their city and Temple. God took His kingdom away from them: a kingdom whereby the priesthood of the Old Covenant ruled the people, and gave it to Christ who has become the head of His new kingdom - the church.

You need read no further than the book of Hebrews to understand how the world completely changed for them (and us) because of Christ's sacrifice.

But given that most people don't understand how Christ's sacrifice changed the world, and thereby belittle it by looking for Him to return to make things "righter" than He already has, I have no doubt you'll misunderstand this, too.

:nono2


The "end of the world" was the end of the world as the Jews knew it:



And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


How could anyone say that by 70 AD, the Gospel of the Kingdom had been preached in all the world to all nations.

That scripture has still not been fulfilled, even today with all the technology as well as the ability to travel as never before!


The end of the age is when Jesus Christ returns -

... afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24


JLB
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The "end of the world" was the end of the world as the Jews knew it:

It is foolishness like this that set your post's on the same par as the heretical writing's of The Watch Tower Society!

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


How could anyone say that by 70 AD, the Gospel of the Kingdom had been preached in all the world to all nations.

That scripture has still not been fulfilled, even today with all the technology as well as the ability to travel as never before!


The end of the age is when Jesus Christ returns -

... afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24

JLB

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. Romans 1:8 (NASB)

But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." Romans 10:18 (NASB)

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:25-26 (NASB)

the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB)


the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This thread is at the same time both pathetic:bigfrown and amusing:D. Does anybody else here understand the concept of parallax, and how it explains the foolish bickering among Christians over a complex landscape like eschatology?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax:study

Yes. Parallax. The problem is when these verses are viewed through the eyes of 21st century evangelicals, they are so skewed and distorted as to be wholly unrecognizable as written to a first century Jewish audience. It not that the background for these verses is shifted, it's that it disappears altogether.

The consequence is you end up with people aggressively defending a point of view with no background for understanding it whatsoever.
 
That does not mean that your worldview and understanding of these scriptures is correct.

The same is true of yours. However, given history and the overwhelming number of false teachers, false prophets, false doctrine and failed predictions for the "end of the world" that has come out of your doctrine, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Jesus said He would return before that generation had passed, while some of His disciples were still alive. I take Him at His word. How you take Him is entirely up to you.
 
Jesus said He would return before that generation had passed, while some of His disciples were still alive.

It is clear that you have interpreted this to mean the immediate generation prior to 70 AD. What seems a bit ridiculous (excuse me) is that you ignore how the earliest Christians understood this verse. If the meaning was so clear cut, as you believe it to be, how come none of the earliest Christians subscribe to your view. How could they all have been so wrong and only you (and your fellow sectarians) be right? The view in the 2nd and 3rd century Christian writings was distinctly futuristic.

Parallax or not; you seem to belong to a parallel universe. Given “the overwhelming number of false teachers, false prophets, false doctrines” that you mentioned; why would that not make you in fact the false teacher in this case, since you are teaching something completely foreign to the earliest Christians. If you had support from the earliest Christians I would understand, but I have read nothing (that I can recall) to lead me to believe this, and I have read most ante-Nicene fathers. Show me some evidence of the early church fathers that your interpretation was the percieved view point, otherwise you are encouraging us to believe you just based on your own wind of philosophy. This section is strangely similar to the period of the French Revolution which saw the rise of the Rothschild Dynasty (a vile person) who rules behind the scenes without a crown (“they have not put upon him the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in prosperously, and obtain the kingdom by deceitful ways.” [LXXE]) This period also witnessed the pope being Imprisoned (“the head of the covenant“ [verse22]).
:rollingpin reba

 
Last edited by a moderator:
It is clear that you have interpreted this to mean the immediate generation prior to 70 AD.

It is clear that's what He meant.

What seems a bit ridiculous (excuse me) is that you ignore how the earliest Christians understood this verse.

The earliest Christians were His disciples/apostles and here is how they took His words:

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (ESV)

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:34 (ESV)

Therefore you [the disciples He was addressing on the Mount of Olives!] also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Matthew 24:44 (ESV)

Jesus said to *Caiaphas, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.†Matthew 26:64 (ESV)

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)

"These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. "These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. "But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you. John 16:1-4 (NASB)

the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.' Acts 17:30-31 (YLT)

having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; Acts 24:15 (YLT)

so that you [Corinthians!] are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (NASB)

But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none; and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NASB)

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:4-5 (NASB)

For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you [Thessalonians] turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 (NASB)

For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you [Thessalonians], in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and joy. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 (NASB)

I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-- 2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT)

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28 (NASB)

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:13 (NASB)

The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 (ESV)

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

~'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. Revelation 2:16 (NASB)

~'Nevertheless what you [Thyatira] have, hold fast until I come. Revelation 2:25 (NASB)

~'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ~'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Revelation 3:10-11 (NASB)

And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:6-7 (NASB)

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

Jesus said He would return while some of them still lived and they passed on that belief in the letters they wrote. Their belief in His imminent return was pervasive and overwhelming. If Jesus Christ did not come as He promised them, then He lied to them and they - in turn - have lied to us.

If Futurism is true, Jesus Christ and His apostles lied.

No one has any excuse for misunderstanding the clearly recorded words of Christ and His apostles.
 
Guys end times stuff is one of my favorite reads... Please if/when i reopen the thread, have your say, but be polite to one another... Look we just may spend eternity with each other...
We all checked the little I agree box when we signed up here....this is part of what you agreed too.

2.4: No Trolling:

You will not post anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site).


Included is the multiple submission of posts and topics. Please do not flood the site with one copy/paste post after another.


2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.



Please give some thought to your reply's . They will then read how you want, not how i edit them.
 
Back
Top